Empty hand training

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One aspect of martial arts that I've always disliked, and this is only from my own personal experience taking Tae Kwon Do for 7 years, very few of the teachers had ever been HIT really hard in a fight, and hardly any of them had actually HIT someone, very hard, in a fight. Some famous MMA guy, it's sourced to many people, once said "Everyone has a plan, then they get hit in the face". Thats REALLY true.

I recommend taking a good "up-fighting" martial art, I'd recommend kickboxing. I'd also recommend a "practical" fighting class, such as Krav Maga or F.I.G.H.T.. Then, start boxing at a real boxing gym. The boxing gym and kick boxing at a reputable school will get you VERY lean, VERY fast. You've GOT to have taken hits, you've GOT to have hit HARD things, frequently, or you'd might as well have watched UFC fights as your "training". In the real world, things are different when instead of a guy yelling "start", you know it's "go-time" when you're spitting up blood and wondering how badly your nose is broken.


But first and foremost, WARRIOR MENTALITY. A black belt with a UZI, but lacking that warrior mentality, will lose quickly to an untrained guy WITH that mentality and a pocket knife.
 
There is definitely a point where size DISPARITY makes skill more of a moot point. Most of us just aren't going to change our size or strength to the great degree it takes to make that disparity a reality. But ANY of us can condition our bodies and train our skills to improve our fighting ability.
 
Traveling Jeff you guys didn't spare hard enough and as you said the instructor did not have actual experience. You have to pad yourself up and learn to use your hands to set up your feet and vis versa thats not true tak won do. What is devestating in karate is round house kicks and side kicks while keeping your hands up (boxing).



Jim
 
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A few months in a good Judo or BJJ school = years of Aikido.

Wow... In your training, somehow you missed the essence of Aikido or you had a very dissapointing Sensai who also missed the essence.

Since '79, I have studied and practiced several types of the Arts Including Aikido and BBJ but I cannot bring myself to ever say that 2 or 3 months of this = years of that.

All have their strengths.

LGB
 
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Really interesting post, I've had the military background, wrestling, rugby, amatuer powerlifting, and more bar fights then I should of been in. I live in vegas and because of my job I run into alot, ALOT of MMA/UFC wannabe's, guys who enroll in a gym and wear some TAPOUT gear puffing out their chests. Don't get my wrong true fighters deal out some major damage, those boys who actually fight in fights not just spar, but thats maybe 1% of the population.

I say stick with what DFW1911 says, "soft" styles, grappling, submissions, takedowns, almost all fights, street or professional, barbrawl or school yard scuffle ends up on the ground. Strikes, punches and blows and kicks are effective but you gotta be REALLY lucky to end it with that or train for years to be able to use it proficently in spur of the moment dirty fight.

Forget what these other guys say about not packing on muscle, I'm 6' 250 lbs, fast and have taken out small quicke trained guys and the big ole meathead boys too. Muscle doesn't slow you down, only thing it does is give you an advantage. I've gone to the gym and sparred with my boys, they got speed yes, but if you got some solid size you can take a hit (and yes I have, bruises the size of basketballs on my ribs, legs and face) you can easily overpower them if you know some basics. Superior strength can resist alot of armbars or other locks just because they do not have the strength to put it in, although if they do your screwed. I have some massive legs that are very strong, this is a huge advantage for me, it aids in keeping you balance when someone attempts to take you down, provides huge power in a throw or defending against a throw, for me personally it allows me to easily lift my attacker off the floor (there have been situations where I had to deal with REAL fighters with the knockout punch and just holding them there basicly gets them flustered, can't afford new teeth!) and the added mass absorbs a strong kick, that wall of muscle can really take a beating, tho pretty sore for a week or 2 afterwards.

Any real street fight takes a 30 to maybe 2 minutes max, realisticly if you train stick with takedowns and submissions. No body spars like in movies or tv, anything longer than 5 minutes is just puffing your chest and usually someone calls the cops. Judo, brazilian ju-jistsu, Russian sambo or systema (which you should really check out, quick, realistic applications) are probably the best. I'm not knocking the muay thai or karate guys, I KNOW that they got those lights out blows, but the Dr 2 B probably does not have the time or the dedication to be able to master those disciplines. Armbars and doubleleg takedowns are quickly learned and besides in the realworld where everyone is sue happy, its better to breaksomeones arm who "came at you" then breaking their jaw with a punch. He came at me and I just defending myself...hint hint.

For jon in wv, not knocking you, but out here 183 is average, 230 and up is bigger and then it just goes up. If 183 is big for you then I have to assume you were much lighter pre-weights so therefore not a very reliable source of "fat" vs "muscle" arguemnet. I used to be fat at 265 but now a solid and even thicker 250, and I can assuradly say muscle is definitly more protective then fat in absorbing blows. I got 23" arms and 13" forearms, it provides me with a stong grip and my opponents cannot easily break out or manuever my arms when I'm grappling with them. I also do heavy training on my shoulders and neck, hat/w chains and weights up to 135 lb neck curles so it's thick and solid; saved my skin. I got into a arguement with a big ole boy who used to play semi pro ball and trained muay thai, literally round house kicked me from 6 feet away left a shoe imprint and one ****ed up nose on my face, but I was standing solid cuz my neck absorbed alot of the impact. Weights for size and strenght help. Not bragging or slamming, I'm just sick of people saying its not effective, look at Brock Lesnar, going against Couture who has over a decade more experience then him was basicly rocked because of sheer size and strength, that boy is not slow either, his size is not limiting his mobility or speed. Don't discount muscle if that isn't your choice of form. I can't do TKD much less compete, but a fight is something different, gotta have any advantage you can get.

Even if you are carrying having the personal knowledge that you have another backup defense to your primary defense, it's invaluable, and a real boost in confidence.

Besides if you have size that usually prevents a fight anyways, who wants to fight a big guy?

For proof I am on the Right:
anf234.jpg
 
Most guys in the UFC also spend long hours training every day. They do agility, strength training, speed training, cardio, stretching.....etc.... Bringing them up as an analogy to my weight training is a LONG stretch if you ask me. Have you fought large weightlifters before? Have you fought guys who do hours of pushups and strength training every day? I have, I do it for a living. Thanks. In fact most of the larger guys do wear out VERY quickly. More mass takes more energy. large guys start out stronger but that strenght tapers off very quickly in most cases. A smaller guy in better shape will maintain his strength levels much longer. Have you tried to hand cuff a 150 pound guy who REALLY wants to fight you? His cardio makes much more difference than his size. You can believe whatever you want.

P.S. Sorry I'm relying on my first hand experience for the last 16 years, I don't have a 'link" to back me up.

You didn't read my answer at all, because you didn't address a single thing I said.. Strength and size are NOT the same thing. Strength training takes very little time. The average person can build and increase strength with 45 minutes a week. Bodybuilding takes more time. The UFC guys spend very little time actually strength training, as most of their time is spent on technique. Strength training gives a lot of bang for the buck.

There are olympic lifters and powerlifters who are 150 pounds and are stronger than probably everyone on this thread. It's because they train for strength, not for size. Just because someone is big doesn't mean anything concerning their strength levels.


And in fact, I FIGHT a wide range of people weekly. Individuals who do push ups, and the ones who strength train with external resistance. BTW, pushups and calisthenics are a form of strength training. Your statements imply that you are a police or correctional officer. Your job is to restrain these individuals, not to fight them. Do you actually throw strikes back, attempt to render them unconscious? I actually do, and have been doing it for years. That's why I'm confident in what I'm saying. Actual fights last a very short period of time, that's why strength is so critical. When you try to restrain someone, that's not a fight, that's a grappling contest because you're not trying to FIGHT him back (even though he may be trying to fight you).

I actually am surprised that we're still having this argument in 2009. Every top boxer, wrestler, track athlete, judo player, rugby player, football player, MMA fighter strength trains. Don't you think that if pushups were more efficient over the long run that all these athletes and coaches would just use those instead of spending all their money on facilities? Look at how many prisons have removed weights and strength training equipment from the inmates. I never hear the officers talk about how dangerous the prisoners' cardio makes them. It's the strength and power of the inmates that makes them so dangerous.

If all of us are posting here, then I'm pretty sure we can all spare 45 minutes a week to do something. I'm not saying pushups and calisthenics don't work, but your body adapts to those after a while. Plus I know people who did dozens of pushups a day over long periods, and now have very nice cases of tendonitis to show for it....
 
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Besides if you have size that usually prevents a fight anyways, who wants to fight a big guy?

Not to be combative or jerky, but while I am nowhere near as muscled up as you, I am a pretty big guy and I have never backed down from a fight. Though I haven't been in a tussle in decades, I did wrestle at a pretty high level and I would routinely beat the tar out of guys way more cut up than I was. It was a matter of knowing more technique and how to avoid an over-reliance on strength. Of course, if I did get caught (and, on occasion I did!) the advantage quickly switched sides. Muscle and skill are a pretty hard combination to beat, but I will take skill over a six-pack and two tickets to the gun show any day of the week.

Of course, back then I wasn't exactly a weakling, but I was the lightest heavyweight that wrestled in what was considered nationally to be one of the toughest prep leagues in the nation at that time, and I was ranked second in that league, and took 5th place at State (where, again, I was the lightest heavyweight) my senior year. To support your point of view, the guys that beat me were stronger, so it's not that I disagree with you as much as you have to be careful not to overestimate pure physical power. Frankly, if you and I met in an alley and had to duke it out, I wouldn't be trying to kick you in the face, I would be trying very, very hard to either kick our knee out of it's socket or to blast it out with a shoulder or something so I could run away without you pursuing me!
 
No offense taken TimboKhan, I just mean for the most part intimidation works as a deterent some of the time. For the combative minded though, strength does aid alot. I got power but realistic usable strength too, from sports, military and sparring with friends who fight/wrestle I have a very basic sparse knowledge of moves and counters which I use quite effeciently against my friends who have years of training under thier belt, two are actually a brazilian ju jitsu instructor, one was an all state wresting champ. I'm not saying I always win, but strength really makes up for what one lacks against a more fully rounded out skilled opponent, thats why they like to roll with me because it's a different challenge for both of us. And me personally if I met an aggressor in an alley regardless if he was 140 or 300 lbs, I treat them the same, I'd grab a pipe and hit you in the head. Better safe than sorry!

*** actually this thread is getting a bit vague, some guys are talking training/skill others talk about fighting. Realisticly a fight is pretty dirty unfair and the winner usually does whatever it takes to win. Training helps but the average joe should keep something simple that he won't forget.
 
It is a life or death situation and needs to be treated as such. A 3 minute balls out fight is exhausting. Normaly you are on the ground in seconds. You have to stay slippery on the ground and either get up and run or if you decide or have to stay I believe choke holds are best try to interlock your arms and hold on untill the threat is gone. I ususally hold until limp.


Jim
 
I rely on the bitter sting of my sense of humor to deter... Which doesn't work so well at night in Germany...
 
Well there was someone comparing strength and size. Strength to me is conditioning, size or weight is also and an advantage. I've fought guys that weighed 80 lbs more than me and believe me if your feet hit the ground your lucky. Weight allows you to stay planted and absorb the pushing and shoving that happens during fighting. You need both along with some type of idea of how to fight.


Jim
 
I'm just sick of people saying its not effective, look at Brock Lesnar, going against Couture who has over a decade more experience then him was basicly rocked because of sheer size and strength, that boy is not slow either, his size is not limiting his mobility or speed. Don't discount muscle if that isn't your choice of form. I can't do TKD much less compete, but a fight is something different, gotta have any advantage you can get.

You saying Brock Lesner won based on his sheer size and strength? Thats ridiculous. Lesner is a world class wrestler with many years of experience. Let me try to enlighten you a little bit. From Wikipedia:

"Brock Lesnar attended Webster High School in Webster, South Dakota where he had a wrestling record of 33-0-0 in his senior year.[14] Lesnar later attended the University of Minnesota on a full wrestling scholarship for his junior and senior years of college; his roommate was fellow professional wrestler Shelton Benjamin who also served as Lesnar's assistant coach.[15] Lesnar won the 2000 NCAA wrestling championship as a heavyweight after placing second in 1999.

Prior to joining the Minnesota Golden Gophers, Lesnar also wrestled at Bismarck State College in Bismarck, North Dakota.[1] Lesnar finished his amateur career as a two-time NJCAA All-American, 1998 NJCAA Heavyweight Champion, two-time NCAA All-American, two-time Big Ten Conference Champion, and the 2000 NCAA heavyweight champion with a record of 106–5 overall in four years of college.[16]"

Does that say 106-5?!?! Wow, thats a little bit of experience and to win against 106 opponents the same size and weight as you I would guess he is a very knowledgeable and skillful wrestler. NOT just big and strong. You analogy to HIS fighting ability having anything to do with YOUR fighting ability leaves a lot to be desired. The logic I'm hearing on this thread goes something like this: Love is Blind = God is Love = Stevie Wonder is God. Or Brock Lesnar has muscles = I have big muscles = I fight like Brock Lesnar. You not the only one Panda, its coming from a LOT of guys. It seems everyone defends their own strengths and won't listen to what anyone else has to say. The essence of MMA is the ability to learn from ALL the arts, not just one dimension of it.

BTW. Besides the "decade more experience" Randy is also 14 years OLDER than Lesnar. He isn't exactly in his prime.
 
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