Empty hand skills - which one's right for me?

Status
Not open for further replies.
There's fighting to survive, and fighting for everything else.

The best hand to hand fighting style/school is to not fight. If you are fighting to survive, any style will work, or any style won't matter. It's all about experience in real dirty fighting. Not about looking good practising moves, or sparring with a partner, or competitions.
 
BJJ has been used to win a lot of MMA fights. This is no way indicates it's the best, or even a very good martial art for a beginner to start off with.

In the real world, staying off the ground is a Very Good Thing in a conflict. It's good to know how to fall without injury, but deliberately taking the fight to the ground is usually foolish. Expect weapons. Expect multiple attackers. It's great to be able to handle yourself on the ground, but it would be even better to be able to solve the problem without doing down.

Something like judo, or boxing would be good for a beginner. My preference would be judo, but it would help to have striking skills, too.
---
The best hand to hand fighting style/school is to not fight.
Click to expand...

Sounds true, doesn't it? But I'll take fighting over being beaten any day. Surprisingly enough- or perhaps not so surprisingly- I have found that, after a certain point, fighting ability seems to make me less likely to engage in a fight. I do not doubt that my ability gives me some confidence that has saved me quite a few times already.
 
Ask the folks that want to sell their trainig if you can do it without hetting bruised and hurt. If they say you can, forget about it.

Only where ALL training is full contact/no padding you will learn to fight.
Boxing, Thai Boxing, are prime examples. Judo is partly cause they don't train on concrete floor, but on mats. Most far eastern stuff, Karate, TKD, Aikido, Kali/Escrima is NOT done full power so it is BS too. It can be done for real, but mostly it isn't.

No pain, no gain.
 
Not all training can be done full power in any striking art. I know guys that could kill people with kicks to the head, and dying while training defeats the purpose of training. BJJ is one of the few that can be done full power/full speed without serious injury.

Anthony
 
strambo said:
I do not train "Systema" (Russian martial art) but have seen lots of it and know they espouse training slowly...so if the live prisoner rumor is true, they certainly proved the efficacy of slow learning methodologies in the ultimate way.
Click to expand...

Eww, Systema. Even their founder doesn't pass the fitness test. Look through YouTube for some of the videos of Mikhail "fat man" Ryabko and his ridiculous Systema demonstrations.

Also:
A first hand account of Systema from a 3 year student
 
If "all" your training is full contact/no padding...and you don't end up in prison for negligent homocide/assault ('cause your training partners are fine)...then why would it be effective when your life is on the line? It is the most effective because it is full contact against a resisting opponent...yet so safe it can be done frequently and sanctioned for sporting purposes.:confused:

Let's try full contact, no padding. I'm gonna use all my bodyweight in striking whatever weak points are exposed to me (throat, eyes, knees, ribs, kidneys, groin, temple, jaw, bladder, ankle, elbow, wrist, clavicle, side of the neck, etc...)

My "opponent" can do...well whatever he sees fit. The end result is either I will succeed in injuring him until he is non-functional (then go to prison) or he will injure me. He'd have to actually injure me though (break something inside me so it doesn't work) otherwise I'm gonna do that to him.

That is the ultimate in "realism" and it isn't training at all...it is actual violence. Anything short of a single minded determination to cause injury and carrying that out (or them succeeding on you) isn't violence, it is sport...or just training for one or the other.

There is no such thing as training full contact/no padding for a "real" situation...unless you are training to be so ineffective (for real) that your training partners always go home. There is a big difference between a bad contusion over your ribs and a ruptured spleen because someone dropped all their bodyweight on a downed person via the knee fracturing a rib into that organ.

If you are training to injure attackers in a violent situation...some artificial control has to be in place to avoid injuring your partners in training. These controls can either be; less speed/power, artificial distance and pull punches, or rules and padding. Which controls you use depends on what your philosophy is regarding the most efficient training methodology that will give you the best ability to injure your attackers in a violent situation.

It's not about "best" way vs. all the other "bad" ways. It is about more efficient methods vs. less efficient methods.

I leave with this thought: Criminals are some of the best people in our society at using violence...yet few have any formal training. They just get the idea in their head of injuring their victims...and do it! Anyone can injure another person...just pick up a rock and smash their head in until they stop twitching. Training is about developing more efficient ways of stopping the threat...but you gotta want to get in there and injure them without hesitation...or they will do it to you.

How (or even "if") to train for this is up to everyone to decide for themselves.
 
Yeah, something I can really chime in on. 10th planet jiu jitsu or Gracie and mix that with Muy Thai as others have said it will work. I am about to start training at the Gracie school here and hopefully will be doing some MMA in the future. Have to disagree with Jshirley tho. I started training in high school in a friend's backyard who was a brown belt in Gracie. I used the techniques I learned in many street fights to success after that. One sentence against someone untrained, especially on hard concrete "Ground and POUND" works wonders :evil: If your fighting against people with weapons you should run, and why are you thinking you are good enough to defend yourself with your hands against an armed attacker? Anyone with even mediocre skills with a knife or gun should be able to take you out like that, if they cant your lucky I guess.

p.s. Iv'e also had people try "deadly" techniques on me in real fights, goin for the throat eyes and such. Nothing stops that like a good knee or punch or a takedown. Those as most techniques only work as a "cheapshot" when your opponent is not aware of your intent.
 
Last edited:
Hey Cannibal,

First of all: I didn't know violence had a fitness requirement? I'm in great shape, yet intend on using as little energy and strength in a violent situation as possible. I don't mean that in an Aikido/Systema relaxed sort of way. I mean that in a use my bodyweight (not muscle strength) to bust fragile stuff in him as quickly as possible kinda way. I'll accept any and all help from gravity and hard immovable objects like the planet in my quest for injury as well.

I read the link: As devil's advocate, the 3 year student's test/epiphany came by getting beat in a sport setting that he never trained for (MMA). Again, not apples and oranges. I'm not saying Systema is great (I don't train it), but the test of a combat system is in a violent situation, not a ring. The most effective and efficient methods in any sport will always be the methods optimized and allowable for use in that sport.

That is the biggest problem and the reason there is so much debate...and always will be. Citizens getting in truly violent encounters and protecting themselves is rare. Elite military units using H2H skills is probably rarer still. The percentage of people in the US who train in all forms of martial arts is less than 10%. So how could we ever get a body of evidence to study the methods most effective in real violence? We can't. It is further compounded by the fact that just because you win/survive doesn't mean you used the safest, most effective method either. The criminal could have just sucked!

I don't go to those sites that often anymore...I used to. They are sooo negative about everything and most are just parroting what they heard someone else on the internet say. The direct experience of the 3 year Systema guy was worth reading though as it was at least 1st hand.

So many people attach a lot of ego to what style they train and attack anything that challenges it. I just train what I figure will help me survive...and as a consumer would jump ship in a heartbeat to something else. I don't care about the time and money I already spent and wouldn't feel stupid. At every stage I have trained what I felt was most effective given my knowledge at the time.

All my comments are in a laid back conversational manner BTW...not tryin' to start a flame war...just continue constructive dialog. :cool:
 
First off, as you said stram, this is not a flame, just replying :)

"I didn't know violence had a fitness requirement?"

Maybe not if your a big guy. I'm 5'10 200 lbs with a 300 lb bench give or take. I'm not a physically large man in my estimation so I NEED that power and strength to add to my technique to slam someone who weighs 50+ lbs more than me. The heaviest guy I've taken down was 270, not all muscle but still a big human.

"So how could we ever get a body of evidence to study the methods most effective in real violence?"

Doesn't first hand experience count? I tried to give a little, I know this is the net but lying about confrontations is not my style. Street fighting is not that rare where I'm from (chi-land).


"So many people attach a lot of ego to what style they train and attack anything that challenges it. I just train what I figure will help me survive.."

VERY TRUE, that's why I went form Karate to Northern Shaolin longfist Kung fu, sparred one of my Gracie buddies and got my ass kicked, literally. After that I went to jiu jitsu and Irish hands and never looked back, knees and elbows are really great also so Muy Thai strikes are now used as well. What works is usually simple and brutal. Like the ground and pound IMO :D
 
Strambo, this was an excellent post, one of the best on the subject I've seen.

damyankee, I'm sure you have skills that are helpful for you, but let me see if I can put this carefully: if you have been in real life-or-death struggles, weapons or multiple attackers WILL have been involved. It's great that you've survived without serious injury so far (?), but any decent knife wielder won't show or telegraph the weapon until it's in play.

Maybe we are defining "street fighting" differently? I, and many others, would be referring to fights with violent strangers. Ground and pound works great on a lone, unarmed opponent when you have the skill set advantage. "Street fighting" in my universe would have your surrounded and kicked in the noggin by the REST of the opposition.

FWIW, you've got me by 4" and 40 lbs. "Big men: bigger targets." ;)

John
 
Gents,

Just some summary "gee that's obvious" stuff in case anyone misses it.

No one thing works best. There are good systems and bad systems as there are good instructors and bad instructors (and good and bad students). An exceptional instructor with an exceptional student with an exceptional attitude can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear system. If you're in such a situation, congratulations! If you're like 99.75% of us, then don't assume that a single course of study/training will save your bacon.

Martial Arts is not the same as H2H self defense. MA is taught in schools in controlled settings by a defined set of rules (wouldn't get much business or a lot of training in otherwise) and involves 1 on 1 or cooperative multiple attackers while H2H SD involves sudden violence on the "street" with no rules/setting/conditions. Don't confuse the 2. H2H SD is not a contest and a MA that works well in competetion may not work well in H2H SD. That said, an MA that doesn't work well in competetion probably won't do a lot of good in H2H SD so look for the Art that provides practical applications in the Field.

A reasonable person avoids having to use force to defend themselves and uses it only when they are being attacked. Not when they're in an argument or a monkey poo throwing contest in a bar or at a game. That means only when your life is at stake. Avoid arguments, drunks, thugs and their habitats. Run whenever possible if you can escape cleanly without putting yourself at greater risk. Remember that getting your ego bruised beats getting your head kicked in.

Everything takes effort. To do something well takes more effort. That translates to repetitive effort regardless of whether is DifEQ or a physical skill like fighting. If you think you can learn to fight without forms or training on equipment or repetitive work with a partner then you're probably never going to learn anything.

Nothing works all the time every time.
 
"if you have been in real life-or-death struggles, weapons or multiple attackers WILL have been involved. It's great that you've survived without serious injury so far (?), but any decent knife wielder won't show or telegraph the weapon until it's in play..

I have been "jumped" like 6 times, Never said I haven't escaped without major injury. :) Steel toed boots to the jaw anyone? (No, my jaw didn't break but I couldn't chew for 2 weeks without wanting to pass out) Beer bottle over the head? The times I didn't I got the hell outta there after catching one or two. So yes I've faced mutiple attackers who I didnt know. About the knife comment, isn't that what I said? I said anyone with even mediocre knife skills will get an unarmed person. Obviously you know the first rule of knife fighting. So I think we're in agreement there. The one time guns got involved I got the hell outta there before they could pull on me.

To me a street fight is ANYTHING where you and the other person intend to hurt/maim/kill each other. With your hands vs theirs. When weapons are involved that is SD to me. But then again I wouldn't enter combat against an armed attacker unless I'm armed also, and then I'd still really like the element of surprise (Repeat: first rule of knife fighting anyone?). I guess what I'm saying is that for me, SD is with weapons, street fights use human extremities. I don't know where you come from but even the bangers/bikers out here will let it go 1v1 if you let them know your a man and aren't afraid of their clothes or tats lol (only to a point, when you start winning that's when your friends start watching his) I've only fought someone I know once and we got up and shook hands. So yes these are all encounters with violent strangers wanting to hurt me/ my friends.

As for the old GnP, against an unskilled opponent its over, against a trained opponent with a good guard, its over if you are accurate with your hands :D The whole thing should take no more than 5-10 secs from takedown, to hitting the eye sockets/temple and nose then the transition to elbows for truly "smashing" hits. No one wants a long UFC fight in real situations, even people like me :)

As for SD, IMO I've seen people try to use the "kill them right now with your hands" stuff. It's mostly moviedom unless as I said you "cheapshot" it.

ok wrappin it up, good convo by the way!

Hso, your right, I'm older now and avoid "street" fighting, it just leads to legal trouble or injury that's why I'm transitioning to the ring. that being said.... fights still happen. Like last new years where a guy decided I did something he didn't like and was going to do something about it. Couldn't avoid it had to defend myself.

J, Thats how I feel about people over 6'3, I'm small enough for cover lol! And thanks for being over there, where SD would be much more practical and I would never try a "fight". but isnt that what your carbine and 5 inch blade are for? SD? :D
 
I never want to get into a "fight". I never want to find out how good the other guy (guys) are. I will not pit my strength and skill against their strength and skill. I will put 100% of my effort into injuring them...then pit my strength and skill against the guy whose ankle I just busted by standing on his tibia above the ankle joint until the planet smacked him in the head.

If your goal is to "win" fights then you need to be bigger-stronger-faster than your opponents. If your goal is simply to cause injuries...that is achievable without strength or a high level of skill. It certainly happens...even by accident.

I read about a 77 yo lady who was accosted by two big thugs with knives. She stomped the top on the first guy's foot with her stilletto heel and as he was bending over to protect his foot, grabbed his hips and slammed her knee into his groin. The other guy ran away...he was still in the fetal postition when the cops showed up. Why was it so effective? Because she used her bodyweight to cause 2 injuries.

Anyone reading this post could have done the same regardless of size or strength or many similar variations based only on what weak points they expose to you. It's not just "eyes, throat and groin" thats just the well known tip of the injury iceburg. The field of sports medicine is a great proving ground for finding out the trauma that can be caused to human bodies using just the force of 2 bodies colliding and/or gravity. Those are all accidents...now think about how to do them on purpose!

I did some research on the knee the other day. Found out all the names of the structures that make up the knee joint. In my research I came across what is known as the "unhappy triad" (sounds bad huh? supposedly quite painfull too) of knee injuries. It is a simultaneous posterior cruciate ligament (PCL), medial colatteral ligament (MCL) and meniscus tear. It happens when the outside of the knee is struck, typically in something like a football tackle. Hmmm...says I, gee I can do that just by stomping through the outside of the knee with full bodyweight and penetration. Of course, I have been training this strike among many others for many years, but it was cool to see exactly the trauma that is caused, how it effects the joint and structures from a medical perspective working backwards.

Geeky med knowledge isn't required for violence...all you really need is the intent to get in there and tear them apart. Efficiency helps though. Repeated punches with all the tiny bones in your hand to the hardest bone in the body (skull) would be an example of a less efficient method...yet one often employed...sometimes to good effect, often not.
 
ok, this is where i get off this topic. I can see someone is gettin antsy :evil: FYI NEVER seen a knee kick break ANYONES leg or ankle, in the street or gym. I've injured my hands the first couple times I hit someone, now they never get hurt other than scrapes. People must not know how to hit right....Any punch Ive landed to the skull including the top and back was a plus for me and it hurt them. Elbows dont break on the skull either :)

Ok, I digress.
 
The whole thing should take no more than 5-10 secs from takedown, to hitting the eye sockets/temple and nose then the transition to elbows for truly "smashing" hits.
Click to expand...
We're on almost exactly the same sheet here. Especially if you make it closer to "5" seconds as opposed to "10". You need to get mobile quickly before a blade slips betwixed your shoulder blades from behind...or an 'ol fashioned boot to the temple.

You mentioned using weighted force to precise targets (temple, eye socket, nose) Do that and you will be rewarded with subdural hemotoma (concussion, unconsciousness, maybe coma-death) blurred (possibly blinded) vision, difficulty breathing from the broken nose and blood in the mouth. Heck, drop your forearm into his throat just using your weight crushing the thyroid (Adam's apple)...and he'll suffocate while probably aspirating on his own blood. Not pleasant, not "fun", not something I would ever want to do to anyone unless I truly had no choice...that's why I stay away from the combination of men, alcohol, public places and single women.
 
isnt that what your carbine and 5 inch blade are for? SD
Click to expand...

Yup. If they've made it past mortar range and into my "personal space", it's gonna be a long day...and probably, a short day, for someone, too.

damyankee, let me give you one incident. Years ago, my younger brother was playing basketball in his back yard. He had to ask one individual to leave. My brother continued playing with others in the back yard, until that individual returned, and hit him in the back of the head with a 2x4, and stomped him.

No-one else warned him, or did anything to stop the attack. Yes, in this case, they were a different color than he was, but I always expect some reason for the other group to band together- friendship, "race", school or gang affiliation, something. My friends aren't going to get into fights if they can reasonably help it, and if they get jumped, you'd better believe I'm going to help if I can move. Almost every time I've been close to being in a really bad situation, I've had others with me- friends (often also training partners), fellow soldiers, fellow security team members, or family.

Not the times I've had knives pulled or guns pointed, though. Since I came out in one piece those times, it's all good. :)

There's an excellent close-range kick I know, strambo, designed to do just that triad you mention. Legend has it the kick was originally devised to break the legs of the horse a captor was riding next to a prisoner.

John
 
"You mentioned using weighted force to precise targets (temple, eye socket, nose) Do that and you will be rewarded with subdural hemotoma (concussion, unconsciousness, maybe coma-death) blurred (possibly blinded) vision, difficulty breathing from the broken nose and blood in the mouth. Heck, drop your forearm into his throat just using your weight crushing the thyroid (Adam's apple)...and he'll suffocate while probably aspirating on his own blood. Not pleasant, not "fun", not something I would ever want to do to anyone unless I truly had no choice..."
Good point, but I'm thinking about it as an get it done asap situation there (when isnt it :D). They probably wouldn't die, that's good enough for me.

"that's why I stay away from the combination of men, alcohol, public places and single women."

LOL I wasn't gonna comment anymore but I had to after seeing that. That is some serious wisdom there :D I'm slowly weening myself of the bar scene, just sucks that in a couple years I wont be seeing the parade of barely dressed women. Serisouly I'm still laughing, that is as on point as a sniper.

anyways good talk and I truly wish you guys luck out there. 4 of my friends made it back, heres to the same for you! (raises green beer!)
 
"Maybe not if your a big guy. I'm 5'10 200 lbs with a 300 lb bench give or take. I'm not a physically large man in my estimation so I NEED that power and strength to add to my technique to slam someone who weighs 50+ lbs more than me. The heaviest guy I've taken down was 270, not all muscle but still a big human."

I gotta disagree. I'm a buck-35 wet and thrown a college football tackle (probably close to 270, I never asked) to the ground and locked him up. It's all about leverage, not size or strength. Now if it was punching then my punches would probably be like BB's compared to his .45's. That's the reason for multi-discipline training though so you have in your toolbag what's right for the job at hand.
 
CannibalCrowley:

Citation please.
Click to expand...

It was in one of his early books, one of the ones that were later combined into the Tao of Jeet Kune Do. I'll have to dig into my library to get you the actual quote, but the gist of his comments and the following techniques illustrated were that if you successfully strike the eyes or groin you may end the fight immediately. If you feint to the eyes or groin you can use the automatic protective reaction of you opponent to your advantage to open up other targets. Makes sense to me.

What strambo's talking about we call jiyu kumite in wado. It's free sparring with all techniques allowed, but at half speed and with control. You get a feel for the body positioning and balance necessary for hitting those "bad" targets not allowed in a sporting contest but without injuring your training partner. We also have the kiso kumite kata and the kihons, which are unique to wado ryu. Wado was originally registered in Japan as a jiu jitsu style, even though it is now commonly called a "karate" style.

Strambo makes lots of good points. Examine all your traditional kata very closely and you will find all the knee-kicking, stomping, eye-gouging techniques you could ever want. They've been preserved there for us to find. Judo has been mentioned, and that was my first art. Hard to argue with the lessons it teaches. If nothing else, you learn how to take a fall with minimum injury, which is a handy skill even if you never need it in a fight. :D

(Jiyu kumite generally means free sparring to most people, but there are different kinds. The kind we practice is akin to Okinawan iri kumi, but with all techniques allowed including joint locks, sweeps, throws, takedowns, etc. I generally limit participation in this style of kumite to fairly senior students.)
 
Last edited:
Everything takes effort. To do something well takes more effort. That translates to repetitive effort regardless of whether is DifEQ or a physical skill like fighting. If you think you can learn to fight without forms or training on equipment or repetitive work with a partner then you're probably never going to learn anything.
Click to expand...

Truer words were never spoken...
 
From the thread-starter:

"I am looking for a course to take in empty hand skills to supplement my handgun carry."

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I interpret this (literally) to mean that you're looking for a course with some fundamentals and moves as an adjunct to your primary method of defense (handgun)... for when deadly force is not warranted or would be ill-advised, for creating some space, for weapon retention, and for those occasions when you're unarmed.

From the question asked, I didn't think that you were looking for a multi-year disciplinary study of a particular MA. If my interpretation is correct, one place that might offer what you seek is TDI. Their CQPC and ECQ courses might give you some tools to work with. I'd think practice afterwards still appropriate as most skills are perishable...but this might be a more palatable alternative to the dedicated pursuit of mastery of a given MA...particularly if you are (as I am) a handgunner at heart who would rather spend their time developing that skillset further.
 
Combat from 0-6 feet or so should simply be looked at as combat. Meaning there is no such thing as "gunfighting", "stickfighting", "knife-fighting" and empty hand or "ground" fighting. It is all the same...injuring your attackers via the most efficient methods available to you.

If you artificially compartmentalize everything then it becomes very confusing and under stress you will have a hard time switching from your "groundfighting" skillset to the completely different "stickfighting" skillset when you get ahold of say his rifle. An example of this was in the Army Times where a soldier had to go H2H with an insurgent. Short version, the soldier grabbed and yanked the insurgent's AK out of his hands...then threw it on the ground and entered into a clinch delivering uppercuts and knees. These did not injure the insurgent, so he held him out at arm's length for his buddies to shoot. His buddies weren't there, so they struggled some more, then another US soldier finally did shoot him at contact range with a 9mm.

An integrated approach to fighting would have had the soldier at minimum, yanking the AK out of the insurgent's hands, then beating him to death with it. Why on earth didn't he? Because current "Army Combatives" are based on sport fighting, specifically BJJ and MMA. So, under stress the soldier did what he was taught to do in a "hand to hand" situation...clinch, gain & maintain dominant body position etc... They (Army H2H instructors) also tell soldiers that the person most likely to win in H2H combat is the one who's buddies show up 1st. That explains the other actions. What if the insurgent's buddies showed up 1st?

Now at ranges beyond about 6 ft, only a projectile weapon will allow you to injure someone else...so at that point it is just "gunfighting" unless/until the distance is closed. So, you need a system of fighting that allows the seamless integration of all tools (edged, impact and projectile) with emphasis only on injuring the other guys no matter what orientation you are at (standing, ground-whatever) via the best tool, or no tool.

You get there by training that way...I've probably done hundreds of rifle disarms as well as practiced taking people out using my (or their) rifle as an impact weaopn. I carried an AK in Iraq for 5 months and practiced with it on both sides of the muzzle and just did some rifle disarm and usage work 3 weeks ago with an AK and an M4.

Once you get a baseline level of skill, integrate knife, gun, stick into everything both you having them and the other guy having them. You'll find certain training methods fall apart when weapons are intruduced and don't hold up at all. Others do well. A hint is if someone says something like you don't stand a chance in "X" situation...that means what they train doesn't prepare them for that. It doesn't mean there isn't a better/more efficient way out there somewhere.

The soldier survived unarmed against an AK weilding attacker...and that is great! I am very glad he is alive and was not criticising him personally at all. In spite of his survival, the methodologies he used were very inefficient, so success is not in itself the ultimate arbiter of efficiency or effectiveness. If that insurgent had 1 buddy around...
 
Another excellent post.

What strambo's talking about we call jiyu kumite in wado. It's free sparring with all techniques allowed, but at half speed and with control
Click to expand...

That's typically how more advanced sparring is conducted in the schools I've been in. At a little more basic level, we follow a kata, but actually try to strike our uke/tori at every attack (usually at reduced speed, but eventually moving to full speed). It's the other guy's responsibility to stop a determined attack, just as it's my responsibility to practice making effective attacks. A somewhat more advanced tool is to receive a certain number of attacks, and then use a takedown. This can start with the instructor using a required takedown move (say, omote gyuaku, a type of wrist lock), and then moving to any takedown move...and then expanding to eventually both members attacking and receiving, as well as applying takedowns.
 
Empty hand self-defense

I spent 25 years training to defend my self in various styles reaching Black belt in several & a upper degree in one and now because of arthritis and a total hip replacement, i suggest moderation in training i am 56 years old, but from 25 to 50 i trained like i thought my body was invincible and now i can barely walk! So to younger people train wise and in moderation some day you will be old, now the greatest thing that Kara-TE has done for me is to give me a mind that is aware of whats going on around me and good breath control and concentration and knowledge.

Train wise
Spacecoastguy:)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

D
  • Locked
Empty hand training
2 3
Replies
63
Views
3K
smince
S
F
  • Locked
One Hand Help Needed.
Replies
7
Views
432
falnovice
F
R
  • Locked
Defensive skills training?
Replies
12
Views
379
chrome_austex
C
G
  • Locked
One-hand gun skills?
2
Replies
32
Views
2K
caz223
C
G
  • Locked
Does a gunfight at contact to 1 Yard really require shooting skills?
2 3
Replies
66
Views
3K
Matthew Temkin
Matthew Temkin
Back
Top