I've done a search on here, but I haven't found what I'm looking for. Perhaps I haven't used the right terms. I know this is a gun site, but you guys are the people I trust and I have a feeling you may be able to help me. I am looking for a course to take in empty hand skills to supplement my handgun carry. I am in decent shape: 6ft, 190lbs, age 37 with no physically-limiting conditions. I am interested in training in a system that will not waste any time with routines, but will maximize my time with useful teaching and training in self defense. My hope is that after a few months, I will be capable of defending myself against an attack without having to employ my firearm. If you can give me any help, I'd appreciate it.
Empty hand skills - which one's right for me?
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CannibalCrowley
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AnthonyRSS
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www.sherdog.com
I train(ed) in an MMA style with Brazilian Jujitsu and Muay thai/boxing. I have also done TKD. Look for a school that teaches for fighting and not for style, although style schools have their virtues.
You can learn a lot from anywhere. Like everything, take what is good for you and leave what isn't. Doesn't mean give up on the hard stuff though.
The most important thing to learn is how to throw a good punch repetitively.
Anthony
I train(ed) in an MMA style with Brazilian Jujitsu and Muay thai/boxing. I have also done TKD. Look for a school that teaches for fighting and not for style, although style schools have their virtues.
You can learn a lot from anywhere. Like everything, take what is good for you and leave what isn't. Doesn't mean give up on the hard stuff though.
The most important thing to learn is how to throw a good punch repetitively.
Anthony
geronimotwo
Member
to do that you need to keep your eyes open, and be used to someone hitting you.
Lucky
Member
I learned unarmed self defence long before ever realizing how fun guns are. I was taught, even in the children's class, that if you defend yourself you try to do maximum damage, you try to kill the attacker. We were even told legal ramifications, much like a simplified Masoob lecture - but it was made clear, you are expected to do everything you can to survive, and if you have to go to jail, it's better than death. If an opportunity arises to stop the engagement before they die, of course you take it. But in general, anywhere you go for self defence should acknowledge that you're not trying to 'box' or 'spar', but to fight and live. (hence the importance of situational awareness, and ability to flee, etc)
(you try to do maximum damage, and if they die so be it, though they probably won't. If you 'hold back' and you're actually fighting for your life, you're an idiot)
I took a form of Kung Fu, but the teacher was clear that names and styles are all just branding. The real meat and potatoes is simple science, physics and biology. Anywhere that isn't caught up in it's own hype would be good.
Oh yea, and go some place where you can get 'homework', so you don't just stand in line punching air and paying for it. If you can practice that at home, then prove you've got it, and learn something else, then you can practice that at home, come back, prove you have it, learn the next thing.
(you try to do maximum damage, and if they die so be it, though they probably won't. If you 'hold back' and you're actually fighting for your life, you're an idiot)
I took a form of Kung Fu, but the teacher was clear that names and styles are all just branding. The real meat and potatoes is simple science, physics and biology. Anywhere that isn't caught up in it's own hype would be good.
Oh yea, and go some place where you can get 'homework', so you don't just stand in line punching air and paying for it. If you can practice that at home, then prove you've got it, and learn something else, then you can practice that at home, come back, prove you have it, learn the next thing.
The only one I can think of that will get you results in a few months may be boxing. Train with real people and you learn to protect yourself after you get punched in the face and ribs a few times.
I have heard that Krav Maga is no-nonsense, but have never studied it.
In most other martial arts, the first few months are only going to condition you to the point where real training can begin.
I've studied martial arts for 27 years and competed at the collegiate and club level. Nobody learns much their first year unless they are incorporating MA into already existing skills (ie. a wrestler taking judo would be pretty formidable).
There are also 'quick and dirty' workshops that teach you knife SD skills if you want that option.
I have heard that Krav Maga is no-nonsense, but have never studied it.
In most other martial arts, the first few months are only going to condition you to the point where real training can begin.
I've studied martial arts for 27 years and competed at the collegiate and club level. Nobody learns much their first year unless they are incorporating MA into already existing skills (ie. a wrestler taking judo would be pretty formidable).
There are also 'quick and dirty' workshops that teach you knife SD skills if you want that option.
I second the Muay Thai (Thai boxing) and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu training combo. When a guy your size becomes proficient at leg kicks as tought by a Muay Thai trainer, you will start and end 99% of any confrontations you might run into with just that technique. For the 1 % who can still stand and it goes to the ground Jiu Jitsu is great. (Thai boxing is not the same as kickboxing)(Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is not the same as wrestling) Training at either one is brutal and will test your desire to learn them. good luck
Sox
Member
At near 40 I started in Muay Thai, got mixed up with the wrong school frustrated went and spoke to a trainer at the boxing gym-old school. He said "man you ain't even gonna get near sparring for about 6 months, you don't even know how to protect yourself." Very humbling the first time I sparred. I am 6'1" 175 and I was practicing with 140Lbs amateur fighter and I couldn't even hit him when I started. I really woke up at that point. Moral of the story, a year later, still much to learn but man can I go. My stamina is unreal and my punches are much, much more effective. I have just started back into Muay Thai MMA and the skills, footwork, and fitness I have achieved through boxing have been invaluable. Good luck. 
WolfMansDad
Member
Look for a good school (dojo) with a good instructor (sensei) first. There are many good styles, and the main difference between them is the quality of the people teaching. Debating between krav maga and shotokan and tae kwan do is like arguing 9mm vs 45. Use what works for you.
Go and visit a few schools in your area. Talk to the instructors, and ask them if you can watch while they teach a class. Watch the students. They should be respectful of the dojo, removing their shoes and bowing before walking onto the floor, and they should be respectful of their teachers and each other. The teachers should take the time to work with the students individually, at the very least going around the room and correcting their technique. The teachers should have control of the class, i.e. the students shouldn't be talking, fidgeting, or goofing around during the lesson. (Yes, this applies to grown-ups!)
Ask what they do to prevent or deal with injuries. If it is a serious school, there will be injuries. Bad injuries - broken bones, lost teeth, ruptured testicles (I've seen all three) - should be rare, but they ought to have a plan for them. A good instructor should have some certification in first aid. If they know some eastern medicine, that's a bonus, but western medicine should be the priority.
One bad warning sign is fat students, or worse, fat instructors. It's ok for beginners to be overweight, but after a year or two of practice, you ought to be in pretty good shape.
Hope this helps!
Go and visit a few schools in your area. Talk to the instructors, and ask them if you can watch while they teach a class. Watch the students. They should be respectful of the dojo, removing their shoes and bowing before walking onto the floor, and they should be respectful of their teachers and each other. The teachers should take the time to work with the students individually, at the very least going around the room and correcting their technique. The teachers should have control of the class, i.e. the students shouldn't be talking, fidgeting, or goofing around during the lesson. (Yes, this applies to grown-ups!)
Ask what they do to prevent or deal with injuries. If it is a serious school, there will be injuries. Bad injuries - broken bones, lost teeth, ruptured testicles (I've seen all three) - should be rare, but they ought to have a plan for them. A good instructor should have some certification in first aid. If they know some eastern medicine, that's a bonus, but western medicine should be the priority.
One bad warning sign is fat students, or worse, fat instructors. It's ok for beginners to be overweight, but after a year or two of practice, you ought to be in pretty good shape.
Hope this helps!
Just thought I'd throw out Krav Maga, too. It was invented by a Hungarian Jew during the Nazi era; it's now used by the Israeli military and taught for self-defense all over the world. The basic premise is to do as much damage in as short a time as possible to your attacker. Like BJJ and muay thai, it's 100% tested, proven, and practical unlike most goofy kung fu or karate schools.
Brazilian jiu-jitsu and muay thai are very good for fighting, but don't discount a Krav Maga place if you have one near you.
EDIT: D'oh! I didn't fully read WolfMansDad's post. I got beat to the draw.
Brazilian jiu-jitsu and muay thai are very good for fighting, but don't discount a Krav Maga place if you have one near you.
EDIT: D'oh! I didn't fully read WolfMansDad's post. I got beat to the draw.
for_hire
Member
It is important to choose a school or system that works for you. I believe having a set style is important. I myself have been training in Shotokan Karate for around 7 years now. This does not mean that I only do "stand up fighting". I know there are alot of people out there that claim Muay Thai, BJJ, or Krav Maga are great for self-defense and they are. But there are only so many ways the body can move or a joint can be manipulated. It is important that you learn the concepts that are behind the moves so that they can be applied to make a symbiotic fighting system. After you gain this you can apply the same moves whether your comfronted wiht a armed or unarmed hostile.
tbtrout
Member
Aikido, no bs routines and you will learn to use your opponents weight to your advantage. Or, depending where you live Jeet Kune Do is outstanding.
Contact shivworks and find out when/where Southnarc will be presenting a course next. This is about the only shortcut I can think of.
WolfMansDad
Member
+1 on Aikido
I've not been in a punching-and-kicking fight since I was sixteen and started training, but I have used aikido/jiu-jitsu - joint locks, control, and disarming techniques - on many occasions. (I have trained in wado ryu, which includes jiu-jitsu, and aikido.)
Also, I've been to a few, and I've never seen a badly run aikido dojo.
I've not been in a punching-and-kicking fight since I was sixteen and started training, but I have used aikido/jiu-jitsu - joint locks, control, and disarming techniques - on many occasions. (I have trained in wado ryu, which includes jiu-jitsu, and aikido.)
Also, I've been to a few, and I've never seen a badly run aikido dojo.
Joshua M. Smith
Member
I took Aikido-based MMA from a former Army Ranger. His dad had been military, and they moved around a lot when he was a kid. He took up a new MA in every town he found himself in. Then there was the stuff he learned at Ranger school.
I went in with a pretty good knowledge of Thai boxing and a bit of Karate. I shortly found out that I didn't know much at all, and we trained in semi-private lessons (max of five students). I got knocked out once or twice.
My cousin is a former SEAL. He also holds several black belts. He is third dan; I'm first instructor (first dan black equivelant). We spar at family gatherings, and I've found that I can't hold back, because he doesn't.
I've not taken Jailhouse Rock, but know some people who have learned it and it is a very awesome system as well, a new martial art being developed by the inmates of our penal system.
The lesson I've learned: Whatever you decide to go with doesn't really matter, but try to find someone who has been in the military special forces or, lacking that, prison. You'll train harder than you ever dreamed and you'll come away with a whole knew understanding of what "hand to hand" really means. It's fast, dirty, and dangerous, and hesitation is the reason a lot of black belts fall to street fighters. I had flawless kickboxing form, and I got my butt handed to me on a silver platter the first few classes because of hesitation.
Josh <><
I went in with a pretty good knowledge of Thai boxing and a bit of Karate. I shortly found out that I didn't know much at all, and we trained in semi-private lessons (max of five students). I got knocked out once or twice.
My cousin is a former SEAL. He also holds several black belts. He is third dan; I'm first instructor (first dan black equivelant). We spar at family gatherings, and I've found that I can't hold back, because he doesn't.
I've not taken Jailhouse Rock, but know some people who have learned it and it is a very awesome system as well, a new martial art being developed by the inmates of our penal system.
The lesson I've learned: Whatever you decide to go with doesn't really matter, but try to find someone who has been in the military special forces or, lacking that, prison. You'll train harder than you ever dreamed and you'll come away with a whole knew understanding of what "hand to hand" really means. It's fast, dirty, and dangerous, and hesitation is the reason a lot of black belts fall to street fighters. I had flawless kickboxing form, and I got my butt handed to me on a silver platter the first few classes because of hesitation.
Josh <><
Stretchman
member
No one ever says Judo. Don't know why. It's a passive form. Tossing people around like rag dolls will normally get them to stop mesing with you. It'll teach you how to keep someone from putting their hands on you. Period. Not about hurting people or aggresion.
It'll teach you how to fall and protect yourself. So YOU don't get hurt.
It'll probably prevent you from ever being charged.
You will get into great shape without killing yourself. You will learn how to never get hit. You will learn how to stop the opponent without hurting them.
It is peaceful.
It'll teach you how to fall and protect yourself. So YOU don't get hurt.
It'll probably prevent you from ever being charged.
You will get into great shape without killing yourself. You will learn how to never get hit. You will learn how to stop the opponent without hurting them.
It is peaceful.
sacp81170a
Member
????? Waste time with routines? ALL training methods consist of repetition and routine. In traditional martial arts the kata (or routines, if you prefer) are the encyclopedia of technique. The reason people disregard the techniques taught in kata is because they're afraid of doing maximum damage to their opponents. Even so prominent a non-traditionalist as Bruce Lee said that there were only two useful targets for self-defense, the eyes and the groin. The vast majority of "effective" techniques in traditional martial arts are ruled out in MMA for safety's sake. Think about it, eye gouges, groin grabs, kicks to the joints, etc. aren't allowed because they are too damaging to one's opponent.
This is not meant to start a flame war between traditionalists and non-traditionalists, but we traditionalists get used and abused in these types of discussions and no one ever seems to speak up for us. YMMV, but find a style that fits you and an instructor you can work with. Expect to see significant results after a few years of training, not a couple of seminars.
(To all MMA artists, I agree with using techniques from different arts, but when it becomes a sport, you must necessarily have rules. In a real fight, there ARE no rules.)
CannibalCrowley
Member
WolfMansDad said:
Either you have low standards or you haven't been to too many Aikido dojos. Our Braziliam Jiu-Jitsu school rents mat space from a center that focuses on Japanese arts and over half of their Aikido practitioners have dunlop disease, even the Kendo larpers are in better shape.
sacp81170a said:
Citation please.
sacp81170a said:
But just like anything else, you have a low probability to effectively employ a tactic unless you practice it regularly at full speed. How well do you think you'd be able to shoot in a self-defense situation if your only method of practice was to slowly go over your draw and never actually fire your weapon?
Hokkmike
Member
OK, I am a black belt who has studied karate for 17 years. I have done it mostly for exercise, but have tremendously enjoyed the self-defense, fighting, etc. I am not a "macho man" and don't claim to be.
My conslusion is that in a fight a man with a gun and a few feet of separation wins HANDS DOWN, end of question.
I would encourage you though, to pursue martial arts for many other reasons!
My conslusion is that in a fight a man with a gun and a few feet of separation wins HANDS DOWN, end of question.
I would encourage you though, to pursue martial arts for many other reasons!
Not true, this is a strawman argument with "speed" (a lack thereof) being the strawman. If we are going to mix H2H and shooting...OK. Shooting a paper target full speed...is the H2H equivalent of punching a bag full speed. Punching a bag is not the ultimate in H2H realism...
Furthermore, you can practice groin, eye, throat strikes full speed. You just have to have extra distance and pull back at the last moment...an oft used (see "no contact" sparring in MA), yet ineffective training methodology.
MMA practitioners rarely go "full speed" and against "fully resisting" opponents anyway even though this is the claim to "realism". If they trained that way most often then there would be a lot of injuries (albeit minor) and very little learning occurring. We learn best by practicing new skills slowly in a setting as realistic (what will be experienced in performance) as possible. Witness an entry team working "slow and smooth" in a shoothouse.
The problem with any sports based art is the setting is never real...just the speed and resistance on some occasions. The rules, ref, only one opponent, setting, goals (of you and the other guy) are all way, way different than the "reality" of criminal violence or police/military use of force.
Bottom line: Shooting targets=punching a heavy bag. Playing a paintball game = sparring/sport fighting. Realistic force on force w/ airsoft/simunition=working with a partner(s) to develop effective H2H skills.
Sure, you can derive some "street" benefit from traditional martial arts (whose primary goal is to teach that art) or sport-based arts (whose primary goal is to get you to "win" under those conditions), but not nearly as efficiently as by going to a place whose only goal in training is survival of violent situations.
CannibalCrowley
Member
strambo said:
Actually I was focusing on the lack of aliveness in MA training and what it would transfer over to in the gun world. Far too many people deride those who don't train realistically with firearms while they themselves don't train realistically for physical combat.
It's a huge hole in their game, similar to the survivalist who plans to bug out on foot even though he gets out of breath going up a flight of stairs.
I'm with you on "aliveness"...I guess in that regard I'm saying that practicing unlimited methods of injury on a cooperative person is superior than practicing limited methods (chosen for their ability to be executed at high speed while being "safe") on a resisting opponent.
You can have "aliveness" and cooperation which seriously reduces the chance of accidental injury. When I train H2H most of it isn't a prescribed set of movements (a "technique). Most of it is me injuring whatever targets I see exposed by using full penetration, bodyweight and accuracy. I can't use full speed (typically 3/4s) or full force or he goes to the E.R. (The alternative is full speed and/or force, but very limited targets and/or lots of protective gear)
Basically, he (they) are "uncooperative" until I do something that had I not held back...would have caused injury. Once that happens they act injured. If I never get the injury (miss, whatever) they are still "uncooperative" at a level (speed, realism) we are comfortable with.
My training partners and I have a tacit agreement: I won't actually rupture their testicles if they act as if I did. I have taken this methodology to full speed before (full speed attacks on me)...very dangerous and it takes a good partner who can get out of the way so I don't actually injure him...lots of control on my part too.
What I'm talking about is stuff like stomping through the knee with so much penetration that I am standing on their patella (on the concrete) at the end. Or, slamming my forearm into the collar bone so hard (with all my bodyweight) that it not only breaks and knocks him off balance...I'm trying to get the broken shard to puncture the lung too. Hard to do if he's standing (the lung part, because his body will spin away from the force)...child's play if he is on the ground and you stomp through him.
I have read from multiple sources that the Soviet Spetsnaz (Special Forces) used to go full force on criminals for H2H training on occasion. The last time (one time) I talked with a former Spetz person...I didn't think to ask about this.:banghead: Next time I will.
That is the ultimate in "training", the ability to go full-force, any technique, without regard for a training partner's well being. Could use multiple prisoners as well to try out multifighing. The 2 main problems are: #1 risk vs reward...you are exposing yourself to being injured by the criminal(s), perhaps permanently or fatally, just for training value. And #2 is probably the one everyone immediately thinks of; the moral implications. This may be a total myth though...I have seen footage of other Spetsnaz H2H training that pushed the realism/danger envelope farther than we ever have in our military...at least post Vietnam.
I do not train "Systema" (Russian martial art) but have seen lots of it and know they espouse training slowly...so if the live prisoner rumor is true, they certainly proved the efficacy of slow learning methodologies in the ultimate way.
You can have "aliveness" and cooperation which seriously reduces the chance of accidental injury. When I train H2H most of it isn't a prescribed set of movements (a "technique). Most of it is me injuring whatever targets I see exposed by using full penetration, bodyweight and accuracy. I can't use full speed (typically 3/4s) or full force or he goes to the E.R. (The alternative is full speed and/or force, but very limited targets and/or lots of protective gear)
Basically, he (they) are "uncooperative" until I do something that had I not held back...would have caused injury. Once that happens they act injured. If I never get the injury (miss, whatever) they are still "uncooperative" at a level (speed, realism) we are comfortable with.
My training partners and I have a tacit agreement: I won't actually rupture their testicles if they act as if I did. I have taken this methodology to full speed before (full speed attacks on me)...very dangerous and it takes a good partner who can get out of the way so I don't actually injure him...lots of control on my part too.
What I'm talking about is stuff like stomping through the knee with so much penetration that I am standing on their patella (on the concrete) at the end. Or, slamming my forearm into the collar bone so hard (with all my bodyweight) that it not only breaks and knocks him off balance...I'm trying to get the broken shard to puncture the lung too. Hard to do if he's standing (the lung part, because his body will spin away from the force)...child's play if he is on the ground and you stomp through him.
I have read from multiple sources that the Soviet Spetsnaz (Special Forces) used to go full force on criminals for H2H training on occasion. The last time (one time) I talked with a former Spetz person...I didn't think to ask about this.:banghead: Next time I will.
That is the ultimate in "training", the ability to go full-force, any technique, without regard for a training partner's well being. Could use multiple prisoners as well to try out multifighing. The 2 main problems are: #1 risk vs reward...you are exposing yourself to being injured by the criminal(s), perhaps permanently or fatally, just for training value. And #2 is probably the one everyone immediately thinks of; the moral implications. This may be a total myth though...I have seen footage of other Spetsnaz H2H training that pushed the realism/danger envelope farther than we ever have in our military...at least post Vietnam.
I do not train "Systema" (Russian martial art) but have seen lots of it and know they espouse training slowly...so if the live prisoner rumor is true, they certainly proved the efficacy of slow learning methodologies in the ultimate way.
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