European Mindset: Are they all against guns or is it just me?

[Fosbery]

It's true that some European conutries, particularily Finland, Switzerland and Sweden do have very high rates for firearms ownership. Whilst this is great, in my experience (with the excpetion of Switzerland) they are valued only for their sporting/hunting/collecting use - not for defence.

Another thing that annoys me is that British pro-gun groups never EVER mention self-defence, or defence from government or anything like that. ALl they ever talk about it sports and hunting. I love shooting sprots and I'm all for people hunting but that's NOT what a right to arms is for.

 

[max popenker]

It is funny that you almost completely missed the biggest European country - Russia
We have long history of oppression, but hunting was a mean of living in many parts of the country, and still is.
Also, Civil war, Great patriotic war and local wars of the late 1990s left too many "unregistered" guns out there.
And, contrary to the most of the world, we had our gun rights gradually improving. slowly and via mysterious ways, but - improving.
For example, back in Soviet times pistols 9and defensive arms at large) were prohibited; the only possible uses for guns wee hunting and sport shooting
Recently, we were first to purchase shotguns for home defence (without right for hunting, which requires licensing etc), and then - to buy some sorts of less-lethal pistols which fire rubber bullets. It is miles away from your ordinary 9mm or .45 in terms of stopping power, but certainly better than bare knuckles...
And we have hopes that in several years we would be allowed to own something more effective.

F#ck, i hate be "being allowed to own" but it is the way the social life goes. At least, it does not get worse with the time.

 

[PILMAN]

I really never considered Russia or Eastern Europe when I meant the average European mindset, I guess I should have said European Union as I consider Eastern Europe to be quite a different mindset overall from the EU mindset. I knew Russia had some strict gun laws, I think Czech has some very lean laws however when it comes to gun ownership. I would have to say the most anti-gun nations in the EU would have to be England and probably the Netherlands and Spain. From my experience, most of the people that debate against gun ownership appear to be from these countries specifically.

Then again this may not just be a European problem, it could be liberalism it's self. It seems like the world went from seeing America as a savior and a good guy to look up to, as a rolemodel to something people hate and poke fun of. Our values and European values and culture appear to be quite different. I guess it's difficult for someone living in Europe who hasn't been to the US to understand our taste for guns however. Until they have experienced crime, murder, and hurricane katrina. I just hope we don't follow the path that so many European Countries have already followed.

As for the people posting here from England, it's great to see you posting. I always like opinions from people who live there and know what it's like firsthand. It's a shame so many antis taint the opinions of the pro gunners living in those countries.

 

[Silvanus]

Unfortunataly, you're right PILMAN.

Most people I know are against firearms and as you metioned don't understand your culture. It's sad but true. You'd think that with our history, everyone would at least understand (if not support) private gun ownership, but they don't.

If people ask me why I buy guns, I always say 'because I want to' or 'because it's fun to shoot' (I can't say for self defence, because I can't carry a pistol in Luxembourg and it would freak them out even more). But they don't get it. For them, a firearm is meant to kill people and nothing else. But then I wonder: why do a lot of people practice martial arts for example? To hurt/kill people (the original purpose)? To exercise (they could jog or lift weights)? Or perhaps for self defence or because they enjoy doing it?

Another thing that I don't get is why antis don't understand that stricter laws take firarms away from law-abiding citizens and not from criminals, they don't buy in legal gun shops...

 

[mordechaianiliewicz]

Mr. popenker, what do you mean, by "mysterious ways?"

I have been under the impression that in rural Russia, firearms ownership since the breakup of the Soviet Union is incredibly common, including illegal full autos, and even RPGs. But, that doesn't mean people talk about it, or that it is "accepted" past the concept that neighbors don't cross each other because they are all "doing it."

Atleast that is what I have been told.

I have also been told that in countries once part of the Soviet Union which are now independent, gun ownership (illegally) is incredibly common.

 

[Zundfolge]

from the original post

...then someone comes along from either the United Kingdom, or Spain and starts professing "You Americans and your guns"...

Its not really about guns, its just typical American bashing that most Europeans engage in.

Silly Eurobigots

 

[Fletchette]

They don't fear crime and see no need for guns because they don't fear their neighbors (who are often ethnically similar, and because of the social systems, well taken care of). They trust the police because the police are well, not very busy taking care of horrific crimes, because they don't often happen.

I have to call BS on this one.

Plenty of crime happens in Europe. The Europeans just seem to have an amazing capacity to bury their head in the sand. Case in point: How many Europeans know of the 1999 Columbine School Shootings where 13 were killed? Just about everyone in Europe knows about it, and will often weave anti-American politics into their recollection ("Those Americans are so violent and gun crazy").

Now, how many Europeans know of the 2002 Gutenberg School Shootings where 18 were killed? Hardly any. Head, meet sand.

 

[ripcurlksm]

then someone comes along from either the United Kingdom, or Spain and starts professing "You Americans and your guns"

and starts professing "You Americans and your guns".... and how you saved Europes arse more than you can count on your two hands

 

[Medusa]

I have also been told that in countries once part of the Soviet Union which are now independent, gun ownership (illegally) is incredibly common.

True. There are plenty of those around. Each time the police do the "bring the gun and register it" campaign to decrease the amount of illegal weapons, some MG-s turn up. Looks like a lot of households (especially farms in rural areas) have a MG as a house defence gun (like Degtyarev), or PPŠh, plus grenades. I don't even bring up the bolt action or shotgun. haven't heard about any RPG for HD, though, but there have been some explosives around.

Once the police sacked one house and left with van full of arms and ammo, like several MGs, SMGs, pistols, cases full of ammo (thousands). Yeah, there's plenty of secret firearms around, in case those pesky commies return.

All guns are got from "Mother Russia" and largely from those dead red army troops during the WWII and later occupation.

 

[G36-UK]

"You Americans and your guns"...Why can't we be more like you?

That's the way that comment should finish.

 

[lykoris]

well gentlemen, this has certainly been an interesting read.

I guess not much has changed in the last two years and the divide seems to be growing

 

[neverjeg]

When I was in Europe and the UK, I found that, while many of my own generation tended to be suspicious of all things military, their parents (who would now be in their seventies and eighties) had a clear grasp of the need to resist tyranny.

Denmark was occupied by the Nazis for a time, and those who remembered had dark forecasts for the consequences of relaxing around fascism. Oddly, they nonetheless were quick to embrace socialism.

My dad grew up under Hitler's thumb. He moved to the US and joined the military when he was 18. My first rifle had to have the stock cut in half so I could reach the trigger. He's 80 this year - don't even talk about giving up freedoms around him. He won't shoot ya, but you will get an education.

 

[goerz]

well gentlemen, this has certainly been an interesting read.

I guess not much has changed in the last two years and the divide seems to be growing

Well, that's not entirely true. Italy introduced the "castle doctrine" in its legislation in 2006 (before that, you could only defend your life, not your properties with a firearm). We have a system of licensing and registration, but it's always been perfectly legal to keep guns at home for self defense. About 10% of households have at least a gun.
After the introduction of the law, there was a proposal to subsidize the purchase of guns for low-income citizens, but that was later scrapped because of fierce opposition by the leftists.
Among the other factors that could explain the different mindset of Europeans ragarding firearms, I think that the role of the Catholic Church, in countries where it is more influential, should not be underestimated (criminals are people that need to be helped, not shot; we should welcome all sort of illegal immigrants as an act of charity toward those less fortunate than us, and so on...).
Regards,
Goerz

 

[jim in Anchorage]

I am not about to jump in with both feet on this one, but I think the implication of the original thread is as false as assuming someone interviewed in NYC is going to have the same opinion on guns as someone in, well, Alaska. Europe is a lot of different cultures and the opinion of the man on the street in Paris may not be same as someone in Oslo.

 

[hinton03]

I have lived in Europe off and on for 9 years, 6 in the Army and now 3 as a contractor.

Whenever this comes up I just tell them we have the right to own guns because of them. They look at me like I am stupid and I tell them that the shots that started the American Revolution were a direct result of the British trying to confiscate the guns of citizens at Lexington and Concord.

It is because of that incident that our founding fathers realized the first thing a tyrant tries to do is disarm the populace and they ensured that would never happen in America by granting every citizen the right to be armed. They wanted to ensure that the populace could protect itself from the Government if need be.

"....Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,--That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it....."

In the history of civilization no more important words have ever been written!

Don't get me wrong, I am not for abolishing the government, but I am for having the ability to do so if need be. It never ceases to amaze me how the words our founders put it the constitution remain relevant 233 years later. Not just the second amendment but the document as a whole. I think it was Jefferson that said "Evey word in the Constitution defines the difference between liberty and tyranny".

Anyway, the European have no concept of this and just don't understand that the 2nd amendment is there to protect society as a whole and that any problems associated with an armed society are a price that is to be paid for the preservation of liberty.

 

[rojocorsa]

This has been an interesting read.

I remember reading about the Beslan School Massacre back in 2004. Basically villagers ended up lending the cops and Spetsnaz AK mag full of ammo. No questions were asked.

 

[woodybrighton]

No mainstream pro gun group in the UK is ever going to mention self defense
as zero chance of it being implemented getting .22 target pistols allowed would be a legal victory

the government ended mass ownership of weapons in 1922 as they feared communism 20 years later heyho no guns to fight facism
though to be fair if it comes down civilian owned firearms vs an invading army your more or less screwed.
Theres no public land so hunting was always a minority sport.

while shooting guns looks fun
ccw seems a reasonable response in a country where there's wide availability of guns.
the I need 10000 rounds of ammo and a dozen semi automatic rifles because the UN are coming to take my guns away seems to be slightly crazy.

 

[JohnL2]

I say always be on guard of the "sophisticated" and "enlightened" mentality.
I love an intellectual discussion as much as anyone else; but a lot of intellectuals just scare the [curse word] out of me.

 

[HGUNHNTR]

Once again Americans are demonstrating their ignorance of the rest of the world through loud proclamating statements about peple they know nothing about. If you want to ditch the stereotype, do some research on your own of different countries, hop on a plane and spend a week in Europe. Just proclaiming Europeans are used to being sheep is plain IGNORANT!!

Please grow up THR'ers

 

[hinton03]

woodybrighton makes my point exactly. The British government banned guns in the hands of its citizens to protect itself from an internal communist movement. Governments do not have a right to exist, if the majority of a country's people want to be communist then that is the form of government they choose, if the majority doesn't want to be communist then an armed citizenry will prevent it. Having an armed citizen isn't just about protecting yourself from invading armies, it is about being able to protect your individual rights from a tyrannical government.

It is true that in today's world it is much less likely that a western nation would be placed in a position of having to overthrow its government by force. However, given the potential for attacks of mass destruction by extreme fringe groups, and the probable economic melt down that would ensue, I don't see it as impossible.

HGUNHNTR I have traveled and lived in Germany 82-85 and 06-09, Belgium 97-00, Kyrgyzstan 03 and Qatar 04-06 and I find the original post to be generally correct. Europeans are the ones that generally do not understand, or care to understand, the premise of the American Citizens right to own firearms and constantly make ill-informed, Hollywood influenced, assertions about that right. Is every european a sheep, that is an incorrect statement, but to allow your government to take away one of your most basic rights, to defend yourself and your property, is somewhat sheepish. Americans can't understand how you can place the welfare of your family in the hands of police with no individual recourse.

 

[JohnL2]

Hey, would you pay my way so I could backpack through Europe then and get the lowdown?

 

[Limeyfellow]

The strange thing is, until the 20th century, a large amount of Europe were more friendly to gun rights than the US. I take an example of Britain were it was perfectly legal to carry by everyone but the actual police in the 19th century, but it was illegal in the US to carry firearms in towns.

The change occured after the Russian revolution, were fear of communism and gangs was used to strike down many gun rights. The same limitations where seen in the US in many places by the 50s, for instance Governor Reagan and his limitations on handguns to crack down on communists and the Black Panthers.

It usually how these bans always get put into place.

 

[thesolidus]

Blame Canada!

Accidently said to a Canadian once "If free citizens didn't have guns we'd still be English."
Well, since Canada didn't revolt against the crown, doesn't really agree with us in doing it (or is upset they didn't join in) and is still, technically, a British State that argument falls kinda flat.
Face it. America left Europe at the Altar! We thumbed our noses at the crown and ditched them. Then had the gall to be big and successful.
Europe is a bit Gentrified and is still somewhat Classist which is everything we loudly strive against.

Reality is lots of Europeans have guns. You either have to be Rich, Connected, in a 'Hunt Club' or otherwise licensed.

Oddly enough they either don't take handguns seriously or think they are only for criminals. Regular 'citizens' can't carry, so 'licensed' persons are not as constrained by US like gun laws. I've seen more 'security' guards in Belgium, France etc with SBR's than I see guards around here with Handguns. Almost every airport, train station, bus depot, big shopping area, high end Jewelry store etc I saw had either Officers or 'Security' packing SBR's!

Imagine getting a Mall Cop license and getting to pack a cut down full auto 5.56!

 

[Dark Skies]

There's an interesting dissertation on the 1996 British handgun ban here. It's in zip format

http://www.blntechnicalsvcs.com/Manuals/Firearm Diss.zip

It is very long but worth the read I feel. It records how decent shooting folk were victimized and had their legally held property confiscated by the State.

Despite the handgun ban shooting is very, very, big here. I know we're technically in Europe but the average Brit doesn't consider themselves 'European' regardless of how much the Labour government would like to foist that label on us. I'd like to see a lot less of the wild generalizations regarding our supposed downer on firearms. Pretty much all of the people I know are already either into shooting or are taking tentative steps to get into clubs and ownership.

 

[Shung]

I am a member of a race under exctiction here in europe, even in Switzerland.

We will keep fighting politically for our right to keep ("and bear" is already gone) arms as long as possible..

but only 2 scenarios are possible..

Wether the S will hit the F so badly, as in a scenario exposed here earlier, and we might understand how important keeping our guns is VITAL to our freedom,

or

We will loose our right to own guns, because the leftiest and utopist people will end up by ruling the whole continent.. I dont know how long we can still hold the ground.. maybe 10 years.. maybe less..

Anyway, both scenarios suck with a capital S...

Please, if scenario 2 will be the one, keep me a tiny place in Montana or Idaho for me.. I'd like to ask political asylum..


Shung, giving it up, muzzle first..