European gun laws

[igor]

Welcome on the forum, vlad the impaler!

Feel free to present a view, to disagree and maybe also to find new approaches and information. I wouldn't agree on your statement sweeping Europeans "by and large" but maybe I'm not getting all nuances in the wording. I'm the resident Finn on the board.

No reason for you to feel uncomfortable here - this is the high road, everybody!

 

[ABTOMAT]

I'd like to echo what Igor said. And can we all please be civil in our conversation? No need for name-calling or baiting.

 

[Risasi]

Yes, let's welcome Vlad to the forum. I would like to see what he has to say, and see if it is so. Rather than get into school yard arguments.


P.S. However your name really weirds me out. Dracula was a very evil and ruthless ruler in European history. (Yeah, yeah, some say he is a hero).

 

[vlad the impaler]

Thanks Igor! I was beginning to feel distinctly unwelcome.

It is a fact that armed crime in the UK has gone up since handguns were banned in 1997.

You cite Home Office statistics? Do you really believe them. Have you not heard of lies, damn lies and statistics????

Try speaking to the Police Officers on the street dealing with the thugs with converted Brococks, reactivated pre95 spec deacts and the mass of new in the grease kit coming out the former Soviet Union. Then get back to me.

Err, OK. So the Home Office stats are wrong. You say it is a fact that armed crime (careful here, are we talking guns or any weapon) has gone up. OK, show me the figures.

 

[vlad the impaler]

Thanks ABTOMAT for your kind words.

 

[vlad the impaler]

Risasi;

I don't know why, but I have always used it on the internet, since I first went online in 1995. Nowadays I always try to use it, so I never forget my user id on forums. I never use it anywhere else; I am not a lunatic or Satanist or anything!

For the beneift of some other on here, there is nothing to be read into the name, and nothing ironic about it. It is just a forum name I find easy to remember!

 

[Risasi]

I do have a few questions for you Vlad;

1. Do you live in a city or out in the country?

2. What kind of house do you live in? Meaning does it have any kind of security system? Or bars on the windows? Would you leave your house unlocked while at home, at night, or while away for a short while?

3. Have you ever been the victim of a crime, or known someone who has been the victim of a crime?


Sorry if these questions seem rather odd. I'm just trying to understand your life a little bit, to better understand your point of view...

 

[Risasi]

For the beneift of some other on here, there is nothing to be read into the name, and nothing ironic about it. It is just a forum name I find easy to remember!

It is pretty much unforgettable. When I first saw it I was a bit startled. I think nothing of it then. For instance the moniker I use is the swahili word for "bullet". I have had many East African friends over the years, mostly Kenyan. They nicknamed me this and it stuck.

 

[vlad the impaler]

Hi, no worries about the questions, I understand.

1. Do you live in a city or out in the country?

I live in a town, approx 50,000

2. What kind of house do you live in? Meaning does it have any kind of security system? Or bars on the windows? Would you leave your house unlocked while at home, at night, or while away for a short while?

It is a Victorian terrace (a long row of houses all joined together) No alarm, no bars on the Windows, no Yale catch on the front door. The front door is left unlocked when we are in, (bolted at night), and mortice locked when we are out. Some doors on our street are left open with just a light curtain during the day, and some are locked on a catch. Ours is closed, but not on a catch.

3. Have you ever been the victim of a crime, or known someone who has been the victim of a crime? Yes, and yes.


Sorry if these questions seem rather odd. I'm just trying to understand your life a little bit, to better understand your point of view...

 

[loach369]

Home Office Statistics are government statistics and are unreliable. Fact.They change the goalposts with reference to how crimes are recorded and grouped on an annual basis. Fact. Police Officers are encouraged to show multiple clear ups when technically only one crime has been committed in order to create a false impression that we are becoming a safer society.We are most certainly not. Fact. The Home Office, according to the Home Secretary is "NOT FIT FOR PURPOSE" REMEMBER??????"
If it is not fit for purpose who can you be so naive as to trust its published figures????

Now how about being so kind to tell us a little bit about yourself by having the decency to fill out some of your profile? And when is your next party? I'd really like to come along and liven it up!

 

[Risasi]

Okay, interesting.

I hope you do stick around, I'm sure I would have more questions for you in the future. Right now I am headed to a meeting, so I will have to talk with you another time.

 

[Lurper]

Vlad
Here is an excerpt from an interview with John Lott

It is not just the experience in England , but also Australia . I think that the increases in gun crime and crime generally indicate that the restrictions didn’t help. In 1996, Britain banned handguns and also made it a felony for people to use guns defensively. Prior to that time, over 54,000 Britons owned handguns. The ban was so tight that even shooters training for the Olympics were forced to travel to Switzerland or other countries to practice. Four years have elapsed since the ban was introduced and gun crimes have risen by 40%. The United Kingdom now leads the United States by an almost two-to-one margin in violent crime. Although murder and rape rates are still higher in the United States , the difference has been shrinking. A recent Associated Press Report notes:
Dave Rogers, vice chairman of the [ London ] Metropolitan Police Federation, said the ban made little difference to the number of guns in the hands of criminals . . . . “The underground supply of guns does not seem to have dried up at all.”

Just curious to see your response.

Here's the link:
http://www.strike-the-root.com/3/chapin/chapin10.html

 

[loach369]

Its late over this side of the Atlantic. Me thinks Vlad may have retired for the night. I hope he remembered to lock his door!
Anyway I'm looking forward to hearing more from Vlad and fingers crossed I'll get an invite to one of his parties!

 

[alucard0822]

I have heard though in european countries (where handguns are legal) it is considered rude not to use a sound suppressor (highly regulated in the US), I also suspect gun laws vary wildly amongst different cultures and countries. This is not all that different in the US, California, NY and DC compared to Vermont, Alaska and Texas. On a trip to Tyler, TX a few years ago I was amazed at the huge number of friendly and responsible gun owners, people are proud to talk about their prized guns and I was invited to some of the best Bar-B-Q's and informal plinking competitions. Nearby in DC where guns are nearly illegal, I was harassed and approached by quite a few upset anti-s when I wore my NRA hat to the zoo. Welcome to THR Vlad, Im always interested to hear different perspectives and people from all over the world chiming in.

 

[loach369]

Hi
Supressors, or moderators as they are commonly called in the UK are now almost de rigeur for health and safety reasons. They are classed as firearms and you must specify a 'good reason' and they must be entered on your licence if used on rimfire or centrefire rifles but are freely available without restriction for use on shotguns or air weapons. If you were running say a .22 for rabbits, a .223 for foxes and a .243 for deer it makes sense to have the one moderator and a common thread (usually 1/2 x 20 UNF or 1/2 x 28 UNEF) on your rifles so you could avoid having to purchase a separate mod. Interestingly if the moderator is integral (like on my Ruger 10/22) a separate variation and permission is not required.

 

[rikfam]

I've heard that in north america, there are 30 thousand people injuried though shotguns. in my homecountry, 15 million inhabitants, there are 200 kills every year. Do you really think that this has nothing to do with guns being legal or not?

Seriously, what kills more people: guns or weet?

 

[sh_ca]

See that peak in 1994-5? See it drop sharply? Now when was it we banned handguns....? It is there in black and white, and is unarguable. Violent crime, and indeed all crime has dropped sharply in Britain since the mid 90s.

Vlad, surely you are not suggesting that the handgun ban *caused* the reduction in violent crime. If the handgun ban *caused* the reduction, what's the reason for the 1991-2000 spike? Handguns were available prior to 1991 presumably. Crime rates have a tendency to trend up and down and it looks like the handgun ban is correlative with a downswing in violent crime. There's no apparent causal realtion between the two.

 

[petrel800]

http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/page108.asp

Poking around on this website that provides crime stats for England, I've found that your premise that crime is down is wrong.

1.) You are looking at the wrong statistics.

All crime is down as you have pointed out, but look at violent crime.

http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/Page66.asp Up

2.) Violence against a person.

http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/Page38.asp Up

3.) Homicide

http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/Page40.asp Up and down, but, a lack of handguns obviously haven't lowered anything.

4.) Rape

http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/Page27.asp Up

I'm sorry, but if you're going to come here with data, make sure it supports your cause. Cause those stats don't help your premise of a safer England without guns.

 

[Kindrox]

The BBC had a very interesting story on how many UK criminals are carrying guns. I think I got the link from THR, but I will post it again:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6194122.stm

I live in a city of ~100k but it is in a metroplex of about 6 million. I have never been the victim of a violent crime, but twice when growing up my mother used a gun to pursuade aggresive male drivers playing car games to get lost. I was a youngster at at the time, and in the car for both.

I think that is why I can answer 'no' to being a victim. We lock our house at night, and generally during the day. But we have been known to leave for a few hours with it unlocked, or with the windows open the the like.

We feel safe, but my wife and I know that over our lifetimes, chances are high that we will need to defend ourselves, our family, or other people. Like home owners insurance & buckeling the seatbelt, I take responsiblity for the direction my life takes.

 

[vlad the impaler]

loach369;

Home Office Statistics are government statistics and are unreliable. Fact.They change the goalposts with reference to how crimes are recorded and grouped on an annual basis. Fact. Police Officers are encouraged to show multiple clear ups when technically only one crime has been committed in order to create a false impression that we are becoming a safer society.We are most certainly not. Fact. The Home Office, according to the Home Secretary is "NOT FIT FOR PURPOSE" REMEMBER??????"
If it is not fit for purpose who can you be so naive as to trust its published figures????

Sorry about that, was engrossed in another thread.

So what you are actually saying, is that you don't have any other figures.

Although the line between facts and hearsay/opinion is blurred, I would say that my (flawed or not) stats are somewhat closer to being a fact than your opinions about what goes on in the Police force. Opinions about the state of the world do not consitute facts. With respect, you have no factual basis for saying that violent crime has gone up in the UK, when you have no factual basis for saying this.

Saying that 'all statistics are lies' because the figures disagree with your impression of the way things are makes it very difficult to have an opinion about anything. If you don't believe certain things because they disagree with your preconceived views, it makes it difficult to come to a balanced conclusion.

 

[sh_ca]

Some people may find the UN Crime Statistics interesting.

 

[vlad the impaler]

Vlad, surely you are not suggesting that the handgun ban *caused* the reduction in violent crime. If the handgun ban *caused* the reduction, what's the reason for the 1991-2000 spike? Handguns were available prior to 1991 presumably. Crime rates have a tendency to trend up and down and it looks like the handgun ban is correlative with a downswing in violent crime. There's no apparent causal realtion between the two.

There is no way I can assert that the banning of handguns casued that drop, there are thousands of other factors ro consider. I was illustrating that the crime rate, rather than going up with the banning of handguns, actually did quite the reverse, illustrating that removing the 'means of protection' did not cause a huge upswing in crime.

 

[loach369]

Hi Vlad

Fellow forum member petrel800 has saved me the trouble and provided some links that seemingly make me right and you wrong.

And that is a fact !

Violent crime (and yes that includes the criminal use of firearms) is up.

Now (and this is my third request) how about being a sporting chap and all that and filling in your profile? What do you do for a living, where in the UK are you etc.

Cheers

 

[loach369]

And what did the Firearms Ammendment Act of 1997 have to do with ' the removal of the means of protection'? It simply reclassified sporting Section 1 handguns as Section 5 1 aba prohibited weapons. Self defence has not been accepted as a valid reason for possessing firearms in the UK for over 50 years. Your arguments are flawed and I suspect you are attempting to wind people up. Are you a journalist?

 

[alucard0822]

30,000 injured by shotguns? depends on what they define as an "injury" and what time frame that is under. For the population of the US currently around 300,000,000 your 200 murders would translate to 4000 in the US. We have about 3 times that rate, but to put it in perspective only 8% of all violent crimes involve firearms, and has gone up and down throughout the years, but currently sits at about 380,000 total, about the same as it was in 1973. Historically the highest crime rates are in the same cities that have the toughest gun laws, with Washington DC topping the list per capita, where guns are practically outlawed. In fact during the last 15 years most states have adopted laws that allow people to obtain a permit to carry a pistol in public, and 89% of those areas have had more than a 5% drop in crime overall, and some places like Texas have had a 30% drop in violent crime overall. All these stats are available from The Department of Justice