SaMx
Member
ALL crime may have dropped in the UK, but the murder rate increased after the ban, and decreased later.
http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/page40.asp
http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/page40.asp
European gun laws
- Thread starter marine71
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Sage of Seattle
Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2006
- Messages
- 773
You triggered (heh) a thought with this statement of yours. If Britons in general did not rely on handguns for self-defense before the ban, then obviously there would be little effect after the removal of this particular 'means of protection,' yes? I'm claiming ignorance on the numbers of positive self-defense with guns that occurred before the British gun bans, but it'd be interesting to find out.
No Comparison
There is no valid comparison of the availability or use of firearms in the United States of America to any other country, in my opinion. Only in the United States are the people acknowledged to have the right (and responsibility) to keep and bear arms. We also have nine other enumerated rights and obligations, the sum of which is unknown anywhere else on our world. Trying to compare any statistic related to ANY of them to that of any other place on earth has no validity because all ten items of the Bill of Rights must be taken as a whole else each is worthless.
Apples and oranges.
ps- Why does the US lag behind the rest of the world in damages, injuries, and deaths caused by soccer hooligans?
There is no valid comparison of the availability or use of firearms in the United States of America to any other country, in my opinion. Only in the United States are the people acknowledged to have the right (and responsibility) to keep and bear arms. We also have nine other enumerated rights and obligations, the sum of which is unknown anywhere else on our world. Trying to compare any statistic related to ANY of them to that of any other place on earth has no validity because all ten items of the Bill of Rights must be taken as a whole else each is worthless.
Apples and oranges.
ps- Why does the US lag behind the rest of the world in damages, injuries, and deaths caused by soccer hooligans?
Last edited:
SaMx
Member
Same story in Australia.
The Australians effectively banned pretty much any self loading and pump rifles and shotguns, as well as handguns.
In both Australia's and the UK's cases, the murder rate before and after the ban was not effected at all.
The Australians effectively banned pretty much any self loading and pump rifles and shotguns, as well as handguns.
In both Australia's and the UK's cases, the murder rate before and after the ban was not effected at all.
other countries
I would not be comfortable even in another state we are in general very gun friendly up here.
other than in town there is little regulation it is mostly on a don't shoot over my head courtesy system.
Not a someones house basic common sense other wise it is great I live 5 miles from the third largest city here.
a little more on topic I have heard both ways with brits crime.
shoplifting and muggings according to msn news are way up.
as for bans some idiot tried to get slide action "pump" guns banned up here a while ago never even made it to a vote.
I think a moniker is important.. just me
I would not be comfortable even in another state we are in general very gun friendly up here.
other than in town there is little regulation it is mostly on a don't shoot over my head courtesy system.
Not a someones house basic common sense other wise it is great I live 5 miles from the third largest city here.
a little more on topic I have heard both ways with brits crime.
shoplifting and muggings according to msn news are way up.
as for bans some idiot tried to get slide action "pump" guns banned up here a while ago never even made it to a vote.
I think a moniker is important.. just me
SoCalShooter
Member
Either way whatever your opinion is VLAD you are welcome here. Pointing out that we may be wrong is a good thing and we want a healthy debate. I understand we have a very different culture that you guys do in the UK.
vlad the impaler
Member
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2007
- Messages
- 20
Err, I never mentioned the Firearms Ammendment Act of 1997
as being to do with anything.
If you don't wish to debate any further, then no worries. Please don't make personal attacks, though. If I were a journalist, I could just sit and read the forum could I not?
Why are you so worried? No-one else has mentioned it, so why is it so important for you? I will fill it out if I decide that there is any mileage in continuing to visit and chat. If you have an issue for whatever reason with me not filling these details out, then don't reply. It is as simple as that.
With regards the stats, I am glad you have suddenly decided that you believe them now that some of them can be interpreted to support your point of view!
I guess the Home Office ain't as bad as first thought....Although it is true that some crime, (involving violence) for instance is up, a lot is down as well, including some violent catagories. Assault on Police for instance shows the same drop. http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/Page49.asp
http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/Page46.asp Common Assault
http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/Page43.asp Other serious violent offences
http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/Page39.asp etc.
Being in Britain, you and I both know that violence is on the increase, alchohol related violence especially so. As I said in my other answer, I was illustrating that the crime rate, rather than going up with the banning of handguns, actually did quite the reverse, illustrating that removing the 'means of protection' did not cause a huge upswing in crime. This was why I picked the overall crime rate.
Just imagine if we could all buy guns. Drunken idiots who at the moment throw litter bins at each other would start waving guns instead. An improvement? I think not.
cloudedice
Member
vlad the impaler said:
If such is the case, I don't recommend banning alcohol. We tried that here once, and no good came of it.
SoCalShooter
Member
I would even go as far to say that because of that we have the NFA 34.
Vlad,
Your post about crime rates in Britain refers to charts that show crime rates climbing from 1980s to about doubling around 1995 and then declining.
What you do not mention is that the crime rate now is about the same as it was before the 1990s, is not slightly higher. So it appears you have traded away fundamental individual rights without any long term reduction in overall crime. It blipped in the 1990a and went down in the 1990s.
It is not sound logic in such a complex world to imply that stricter gun laws reduced crime. After 1995 just so happens to be when the worldwide economies exploded in prosperity. After 2001 we've had even harsher security measures worldwide as well in terms of surveillance and travel especially.
The issue about gun rights fundamentally is not about safety, it is about liberty. The individual freedom to have the opportunity to defend yourself and loved ones effectively. The opportunity to overthrow a repressive government gone out of control. The opportunity to prevent genocide.
Your post about crime rates in Britain refers to charts that show crime rates climbing from 1980s to about doubling around 1995 and then declining.
What you do not mention is that the crime rate now is about the same as it was before the 1990s, is not slightly higher. So it appears you have traded away fundamental individual rights without any long term reduction in overall crime. It blipped in the 1990a and went down in the 1990s.
It is not sound logic in such a complex world to imply that stricter gun laws reduced crime. After 1995 just so happens to be when the worldwide economies exploded in prosperity. After 2001 we've had even harsher security measures worldwide as well in terms of surveillance and travel especially.
The issue about gun rights fundamentally is not about safety, it is about liberty. The individual freedom to have the opportunity to defend yourself and loved ones effectively. The opportunity to overthrow a repressive government gone out of control. The opportunity to prevent genocide.
ArfinGreebly
Moderator Emeritus
False Logic
I am "amused" occasionally to watch as someone postulates that "if everyone could get a gun" then the current crop of hopelessly irresponsible cretins -- who are only killing each other with rocks and clubs -- would suddenly start killing each other with guns.
How awful.
It helps if you address the system that produces hopelessly irresponsible cretins.
In the meantime, the ordinary citizen needs the opportunity and means to defend himself.
The idiotic system that has produced a crop -- or several crops -- of irresponsible cretins will experience what the stock market folks like to call "a correction" as things shake out.
In plain English: some cretins are going to die, along with some innocents, as things adjust.
To argue that the system has now created an unsolveable problem because everyone is too irresponsible to own guns and defend themselves and that therefore the system must make people even more irresponsible and that will solve everything . . . is insanity.
Sometimes there isn't an easy answer.
You disarmed the public. They didn't need disarming. And now you have defenseless victims and a system that keeps them defenseless and punishes self defense.
Oh, brilliant.
Give them back their guns. Let them sort it out.
Don't worry, enough people will survive the adjustment. Most of them, in fact. Actually, the overwhelming majority of them. Almost everyone, really.
Because it won't take long for the social wolves to figure out the rules have changed.
Quit disarming honest people and pretending that will solve anything at all.
Let them be armed and let them defend themselves.
Yes, we'll lose a few. But we're already losing many. Sorry about the blaggers we'll lose. I know how valuable they are to a society.
But enough insanity already.
Give people back their dignity and the means to see to their own safety.
Give them back their guns.
I am "amused" occasionally to watch as someone postulates that "if everyone could get a gun" then the current crop of hopelessly irresponsible cretins -- who are only killing each other with rocks and clubs -- would suddenly start killing each other with guns.
How awful.
It helps if you address the system that produces hopelessly irresponsible cretins.
In the meantime, the ordinary citizen needs the opportunity and means to defend himself.
The idiotic system that has produced a crop -- or several crops -- of irresponsible cretins will experience what the stock market folks like to call "a correction" as things shake out.
In plain English: some cretins are going to die, along with some innocents, as things adjust.
To argue that the system has now created an unsolveable problem because everyone is too irresponsible to own guns and defend themselves and that therefore the system must make people even more irresponsible and that will solve everything . . . is insanity.
Sometimes there isn't an easy answer.
You disarmed the public. They didn't need disarming. And now you have defenseless victims and a system that keeps them defenseless and punishes self defense.
Oh, brilliant.
Give them back their guns. Let them sort it out.
Don't worry, enough people will survive the adjustment. Most of them, in fact. Actually, the overwhelming majority of them. Almost everyone, really.
Because it won't take long for the social wolves to figure out the rules have changed.
Quit disarming honest people and pretending that will solve anything at all.
Let them be armed and let them defend themselves.
Yes, we'll lose a few. But we're already losing many. Sorry about the blaggers we'll lose. I know how valuable they are to a society.
But enough insanity already.
Give people back their dignity and the means to see to their own safety.
Give them back their guns.
Vlad, you seem like a decent chap. Welcome to the High Road. However, I will tenderly point out that, by and large, the crux of our stance is that everyone (well, maybe not the English...just kidding) is born with the right to defend themselves. Everyone. Moreover, I posit that bad things happen. Deep, huh? Same as there will always be burglars, murderers, there will always be people who snap and start shooting people. Effect the latter has on my right to carry a firearm? Zero. You can't oppress the peaceful majority in response to the violent minority. Well, you shouldn't.
Best,
Lew
Best,
Lew
coelacanth
Member
- Joined
- Mar 5, 2007
- Messages
- 455
a personal anecdote .....
On my last trip to England about a year ago we spent 2 lovely weeks in the West Country after attending a friend's wedding. Aside from from renewing my love affair with the English pub and a proper pint or two of Wadworth's 6x we had the opportunity to hobnob with friends and friends of friends throughout the countryside. They were surprisingly well armed for a place where gun ownership is virtually prohibited. I encountered all manner of functioning weapons up to and including a Bren gun and the discussion of the state of siege most Britons now feel in their homes was a hot topic among these folks. It seems that they were somewhat less sanguine about their security than Vlad. Apparently they hadn't read all the newspaper articles telling them how much safer they were now that the government had taken decisive action.
On my last trip to England about a year ago we spent 2 lovely weeks in the West Country after attending a friend's wedding. Aside from from renewing my love affair with the English pub and a proper pint or two of Wadworth's 6x we had the opportunity to hobnob with friends and friends of friends throughout the countryside. They were surprisingly well armed for a place where gun ownership is virtually prohibited. I encountered all manner of functioning weapons up to and including a Bren gun and the discussion of the state of siege most Britons now feel in their homes was a hot topic among these folks. It seems that they were somewhat less sanguine about their security than Vlad. Apparently they hadn't read all the newspaper articles telling them how much safer they were now that the government had taken decisive action.
Ok.. Just posting as another voice from Europe .
I live in Ireland , we have an active and growing sport shooting community.
After many years and some prolonged legal action we have just started to get
some of our firearms back .
Up to a couple of years ago the only firearms allowed in private ownership were as follows..
Rifles ..mainly .22LR , but up to .243 if you had a deer permit.
Shotguns ... practically no restrictions.
Pistols of any sort ....Not available.
In the last couple of years it has changed here.
With an increase in shooting clubs and ranges.
Rifles ... .223 , 308, and bigger are commonly seen on shooting ranges.
Shotguns ... some restrictions on high capacity Semi autos
Pistols ....22lr, 9mm , 40, and 45, ..now available for target shooting .
Reloading of ammunition has been legalized recently.
The club where I am a member has the following ranges.
Pistol .. up to 25 yards.
Rifle... 50, 100, 200, 300, 600...and plans to add a 1000 yard range.
Shotgun... clay range.
Plenty of benchrest and F-class competitions and in a couple of weeks we will be hosting our 2nd International shooting match with visiting shooters from Canada, UK, Scotland and Possibly the USA.
So I guess it would be fair to say that the Irish have a strong interest in the sport of shooting.
Without diving into a lesson in history which nobody here either needs or wants, we were mostly a disarmed society for the past 30 years. It didn't prevent an ongoing spate of murder and shootings in the North of our island.
It didn't prevent crime gangs and drug gangs getting illegal firearms. It only punished law abiding citizens and deprived us of our sport.
There is really no tradition in Ireland of using a firearm to protect oneself or one's home , there have been some rare incidents but recently the government passed a law where the rights of the homeowner have been increased to allow the use of force in the event of an attack and have removed the unfair requirement the the occupier retreat from an attacker in their home.
There will always be some gun related crime in every country , laws preventing ownership will never effect criminals.
With regard to the comment in an earlier thread that over in Europe there is no interest in either gun ownership or shooting ... nonsense..!
Several of our members regularly shoot in Scotland , and the great ranges in Bisley in England.
Even a quick look at the following English links will prove that...
http://www.nra.org.uk/
http://www.nra.org.uk/common/asp/links/links.asp?site=NRA&cat=4
And some Irish ones....
http://www.nrai.ie/
http://eastcoastshootingclub.com/index.html
http://shootingsportsireland.com/index.html
http://www.nargc.ie/partners/index.htm
Sorry for the really long post , but there was a lot of stuff to cover in the original question.
I live in Ireland , we have an active and growing sport shooting community.
After many years and some prolonged legal action we have just started to get
some of our firearms back .
Up to a couple of years ago the only firearms allowed in private ownership were as follows..
Rifles ..mainly .22LR , but up to .243 if you had a deer permit.
Shotguns ... practically no restrictions.
Pistols of any sort ....Not available.
In the last couple of years it has changed here.
With an increase in shooting clubs and ranges.
Rifles ... .223 , 308, and bigger are commonly seen on shooting ranges.
Shotguns ... some restrictions on high capacity Semi autos
Pistols ....22lr, 9mm , 40, and 45, ..now available for target shooting .
Reloading of ammunition has been legalized recently.
The club where I am a member has the following ranges.
Pistol .. up to 25 yards.
Rifle... 50, 100, 200, 300, 600...and plans to add a 1000 yard range.
Shotgun... clay range.
Plenty of benchrest and F-class competitions and in a couple of weeks we will be hosting our 2nd International shooting match with visiting shooters from Canada, UK, Scotland and Possibly the USA.
So I guess it would be fair to say that the Irish have a strong interest in the sport of shooting.
Without diving into a lesson in history which nobody here either needs or wants, we were mostly a disarmed society for the past 30 years. It didn't prevent an ongoing spate of murder and shootings in the North of our island.
It didn't prevent crime gangs and drug gangs getting illegal firearms. It only punished law abiding citizens and deprived us of our sport.
There is really no tradition in Ireland of using a firearm to protect oneself or one's home , there have been some rare incidents but recently the government passed a law where the rights of the homeowner have been increased to allow the use of force in the event of an attack and have removed the unfair requirement the the occupier retreat from an attacker in their home.
There will always be some gun related crime in every country , laws preventing ownership will never effect criminals.
With regard to the comment in an earlier thread that over in Europe there is no interest in either gun ownership or shooting ... nonsense..!
Several of our members regularly shoot in Scotland , and the great ranges in Bisley in England.
Even a quick look at the following English links will prove that...
http://www.nra.org.uk/
http://www.nra.org.uk/common/asp/links/links.asp?site=NRA&cat=4
And some Irish ones....
http://www.nrai.ie/
http://eastcoastshootingclub.com/index.html
http://shootingsportsireland.com/index.html
http://www.nargc.ie/partners/index.htm
Sorry for the really long post , but there was a lot of stuff to cover in the original question.
NonServiam
Member
vlad the impaler, welcome to THR! This is an international crowd, so don't expect your statements on behalf of Europeans to go unchallenged.
Ahem! Not quite. Unless you don't count Norway, Sweden, Finland and Denmark as part of Europe. Admittedly, Norway is not a EU member, but we're still here geographically you know. Albeit on the northern fringes There are also many other European countries where handguns and rifles are available as registered tools for hunting and sports shooting. The self defense aspect is certainly downplayed when compared to US, no question about it.
As fodder for the debate, London is the most dangerous capital in the EU, according to a recent EU survey.
So, is violence a gun problem, or could it be a bit more complex?
My pistols and revolvers are very well behaved, strangely they have not committed any crimes at all. Coincidentally, so am I. What is the difference between me and a London violent street drug dealer? Is it access to guns?
Edited: My apologies to the threadstarter, for answering vlad's post and not the original question. I hope that the debate is fruitful for you as well.
Ahem! Not quite. Unless you don't count Norway, Sweden, Finland and Denmark as part of Europe. Admittedly, Norway is not a EU member, but we're still here geographically you know. Albeit on the northern fringes
There are also many other European countries where handguns and rifles are available as registered tools for hunting and sports shooting. The self defense aspect is certainly downplayed when compared to US, no question about it.As fodder for the debate, London is the most dangerous capital in the EU, according to a recent EU survey.
So, is violence a gun problem, or could it be a bit more complex?
My pistols and revolvers are very well behaved, strangely they have not committed any crimes at all. Coincidentally, so am I. What is the difference between me and a London violent street drug dealer? Is it access to guns?
Edited: My apologies to the threadstarter, for answering vlad's post and not the original question. I hope that the debate is fruitful for you as well.
loach369
Member
Hi Vlad
You said in post 47 that : the crime rate rather than going up with the banning of handguns actually did quite the reverse, illustrating that removing the means of protection did not cause a huge upswing in crime
You go on in another post to claim to me that you did not mention the Firearms Ammendment Act 1997. Well you did. You just didn't know / hadn't done the research that the Act of Parliament that banned handguns was titled The Firearms Ammendement Act 1997.
How can this demonstrate that 'removing the means of protection' as you call it 'did not cause a huge upswing in crime' when the Act concerned handguns held solely by sporting shooters for sporting purposes that could not be legitimately used for self defence or as 'means of protection' as you put it?
Simply put the 'means of protection' you quote did not exist in law.
Yet again you are wrong. Fact
You said in post 47 that : the crime rate rather than going up with the banning of handguns actually did quite the reverse, illustrating that removing the means of protection did not cause a huge upswing in crime
You go on in another post to claim to me that you did not mention the Firearms Ammendment Act 1997. Well you did. You just didn't know / hadn't done the research that the Act of Parliament that banned handguns was titled The Firearms Ammendement Act 1997.
How can this demonstrate that 'removing the means of protection' as you call it 'did not cause a huge upswing in crime' when the Act concerned handguns held solely by sporting shooters for sporting purposes that could not be legitimately used for self defence or as 'means of protection' as you put it?
Simply put the 'means of protection' you quote did not exist in law.
Yet again you are wrong. Fact
The jails in Britain are so overcrowded that Judges are being asked not to sentence people to serve time...
Crime is very wide spread, and the average brit doesnt even feel safe anylonger. The ban on pcoket knives will happen... and it is a stupid ban.
Speaking of Europe in general and in my case France it is fairly gun friendly.
You do need to have a membership to a shooting club or a hunting license for most weapons.
You can buy rifles and shot guns to your hearts content with a simple shooting club membership, except in .308, 7.62x54, 8x57 or any of the military calibers.
For military caliber weapons, or weapons with a high capacity (semi auto/auto) and handguns you need authorisation. This is done either at the town/county/state or ministerial level. Eg you want to buy a 10mm handgun.. town/county. 9 mm state. You want a fully automatic AK 47 ministerial. The process can take anything from a week to a year or more. Live in a rural part.. low population... a 9mm authorisation can take about 4-6 weeks to 6 months at the outside. In Paris... at least a year...
You want a Blackpowder weapon... just show your ID to prove you're over 18. You want a Painball gun.. in contrast you need to show you're a member of a paintball shooting club, and the weapon is registered.
Silencers for all types of weapons and calibers is legal. Not permit required. You want an auto-MP5 that is silenced. Well you need Ministerial authorisation (can take a year) for the MP5. And none for the silencer...
Until a couple of years ago you did not even need to register .22 Lr caliber rifles or non pump action shotguns in any caliber.
Concealed carry, or carry without a reason, or loaded carry of weapons (except when hunting) is illegal.
Gun crime is extermly low, and when it does occur it tends to be with air guns ...
Of course guns and ammo cost about 3x of that in the US. An SHR 970 which could be had for about 700 USD (300 Win Mag) is about 1900 USD here. A box of 20 Federal Gamshok 180 GR in the same caliber is about 55 USD. Match Quality Factory loads or other brands go up to about 110 USD per box of 20.
.22 LR ammo typically costs about 7 USD per 100 for CCI SV and about 40 USD for a simillar amount of Eley Tenex.
But do people buy guns? My local shop got a batch of 100 Checz made never issued 98K Mausers which he is re-sizing in 8x64S. They were offered at $500 each and sold out in 2 days. Limit of 1 per customer. 8x64S ammo costs >$60 per 20.
Crime is very wide spread, and the average brit doesnt even feel safe anylonger. The ban on pcoket knives will happen... and it is a stupid ban.
Speaking of Europe in general and in my case France it is fairly gun friendly.
You do need to have a membership to a shooting club or a hunting license for most weapons.
You can buy rifles and shot guns to your hearts content with a simple shooting club membership, except in .308, 7.62x54, 8x57 or any of the military calibers.
For military caliber weapons, or weapons with a high capacity (semi auto/auto) and handguns you need authorisation. This is done either at the town/county/state or ministerial level. Eg you want to buy a 10mm handgun.. town/county. 9 mm state. You want a fully automatic AK 47 ministerial. The process can take anything from a week to a year or more. Live in a rural part.. low population... a 9mm authorisation can take about 4-6 weeks to 6 months at the outside. In Paris... at least a year...
You want a Blackpowder weapon... just show your ID to prove you're over 18. You want a Painball gun.. in contrast you need to show you're a member of a paintball shooting club, and the weapon is registered.
Silencers for all types of weapons and calibers is legal. Not permit required. You want an auto-MP5 that is silenced. Well you need Ministerial authorisation (can take a year) for the MP5. And none for the silencer...
Until a couple of years ago you did not even need to register .22 Lr caliber rifles or non pump action shotguns in any caliber.
Concealed carry, or carry without a reason, or loaded carry of weapons (except when hunting) is illegal.
Gun crime is extermly low, and when it does occur it tends to be with air guns ...
Of course guns and ammo cost about 3x of that in the US. An SHR 970 which could be had for about 700 USD (300 Win Mag) is about 1900 USD here. A box of 20 Federal Gamshok 180 GR in the same caliber is about 55 USD. Match Quality Factory loads or other brands go up to about 110 USD per box of 20.
.22 LR ammo typically costs about 7 USD per 100 for CCI SV and about 40 USD for a simillar amount of Eley Tenex.
But do people buy guns? My local shop got a batch of 100 Checz made never issued 98K Mausers which he is re-sizing in 8x64S. They were offered at $500 each and sold out in 2 days. Limit of 1 per customer. 8x64S ammo costs >$60 per 20.
Irwin
Member
I think what most people forget is that we dont actually have a fixed constitution in britain its an ever changing one(for the worst).Also can you not own handguns in Jersey in the channel islands? And isnt most you hear off the news about crime and that scare mongering thats why i no longer watch gmtv or the itv news i feel there only purpose is to scare monger, for example we have rapid child hood obisity problems, lots of knife crime,gun crime,there even going to start restricting airsoft in october to people who are in offical airsoft clubs. I cant wait till i get a trade and i leave here for good and move to america if they will have me, if not new zealand sounds good. I was comtemplating getting a fac but if i leave with in the next 4 years is it really worth all that time and money if i have to wait at least a year for it? Also alot of you have been saying how the shooting sports have grown rescently in britain what i think people fail to account for is people like me who would like to own firearms but are put off buy the system. Gaw didnt relise i typed this much Irwin.
loach369
Member
Hey Vlad! Where have you gone?
Has the newsdesk put you on another story?
Has the newsdesk put you on another story?
sterling180
Member
I have been to Belgium and France and have shot pistols and slrs over there.Even in the Irish Republic,modern pistols are legal and so are slrs,too.This country,compared to other European countries,is by far,the worst one with the most draconian laws,because people think that every gun owner is a selfish,psycho monster,that would kill them,given an opportunity.Its called the Scottish Labour party and their supporters,from the GCN and from the antis in Hungerford and in Dunblane.People like you don't seem to think of this as your rights,because you don't see it as such:but I am gald that you are respectful and not a total arse like how Aussieseek was.
By the way,the Herstel factory,is in Belguim and they make 9mm FNs,etc.The CZ factory is in the Czech Republic and they make pistols,shotguns and rifles.All European countries permit handguns,except for the paranoid Brits.
All because of one sad, bald perverted,old prat and one mummy's boy arm-chair commando,we have had to suffer stict laws,ever since they commited their evil deeds of killing the innocents.Then silly people,say that gang violence is connected,with legally-held weapons.
You matey,need to join a shooting club and experiance this for yourself,instead of being on the outside,looking in and don't be put off by your partner and by your friends,either.Remember,that this is your rights to guns and if you display the wrong attitude,then the Red brigade,will use this as an excuse to ban even more,of the shooting rights,that exist on the UK mainland.
Now on a different note:I am trying to organise a boycott of the Armed Forces,from shooting PP(Practical Pistol.) competitions,because it is unfair to the UK mainland shooters,on the whole.Why should a service person compete with another one or a copper,from C019,on a pistol range,for a decorated trophy,when the sport using modern-handguns,is banned from civillian use?
They can even compete at Bisley with them and we can't.Up yours to the members of the GCN and to all antis out there,because you have really made every target-shooters days here,a living hell.
sterling180
Member
No,no,no,not quite:21 years or more ago,the laws in this country were less strict,than they are now, that you could buy an AK47 and every type of gun,that is available in the USA.The paperwork,was very stict,but a few psychos slipped the net.Men like Micheal Ryan and Thomas Hamilton,who were both deranged,emotionless,cold-blooded psychotic killing machines and not drunken idiotic d*ckheads.Because of this,the laws changed, in the hope of protecting society against psycopaths and not larger louts or jack-boot wearing skin-head thugs.
It was strict years ago,but you have to imagine the types of persons that would kill people,on a grand scale.Drunken yobs wouldn't but a Rambo lunatic,would.I have been to football matches,in Millwall FC and most yobs,are cowards and have run from the police,because they think that it is cool,to do so,because they can't fight.Micheal Ryan,emptied an AK47 into a policemans body and pumped 15 bullets from his handgun,into the guys head,whilst the officer was driving his car.Who is more dangerous to society, A stupid thug or a quiet looney,like Ryan?They needed a SWAT team,to get to Ryan,in the end.
Don't assume that it was about us all buying guns and killing each other:most people couldn't kill another person with a gun,a psycho could and most people aren't psychotic.A drunken yob would soon sober up,if they pulled the trigger and most yobbos aren't into guns,but nutters like Ryan and Hamilton are,attracted to them,like magnets.
By the way,spree killings and killers are very rare and it takes alot to massacre people and then still retain composure.But it is hard to tell in someways,who is a nutcase and who is sane,because people can hide this very easily and this logic,can defeat the pro-gun argument.
Well I am from Norway, as my nickname states.
Here in Norway I find the gunlaws to be fairly ok. You can own shotguns and rifles from the age of 18 after passing a practical and theoretical course on hunting.
In regards to ownership of pistols and revolvers you have to be 21 years old and have had a safety course in firearm handling and a minimum of 6 month membership in a gunclub.
As a baseline you cannot own more then one weapon in each calibre, and if you want to get a weapon at you have to state specific reasons\area when applying. Examples would be hunting for different game and participating in several different classes in pistol\revolver shooting.
Crime rates in Norway are low though naturally firearms are used from time to time, but then mostly not involving people who are legal registered owners of firearms. As a generalization I percive there to be little problem in that regards.
In cases where there have been multiple killings as a result of use of firearms it has been mostly as a result of a family tradegy where sometimes including the suicide of the perpetrator.
In the recent years however there has been a growing debate wether the police (who is not armed in public) shall begin to carry while on duty due to a period of brutal armed robberies over a period of years. However this seems to have been somewhat put to rest when the amount of said robberies have subdued lately.
While I sometimes shake my head of the fact that the police is not armed I very well know it is a reflection of the safety and the mentality of the society that I live in.
I fully appriciate the possibility to own firearms and even though I have some beefs with the present laws regarding it I find it as previously stated rather fair.
carrying in public in Norway is strictly prohibited by civilians and one also have to buy a safe upon requiring the first pistol\revolver, however to my knowledge this doesn`t apply to rifles and shotguns as it then becomes a demand when reaching a total of four rifles\shotguns combined (I`m a bit unsure about that last part).
In total among Norways about 4.6 million inhabitans there are about 1,6-1,7 million privatly owned weapons I believe. In addition to that of course there migth be a certain number of non-registered weapons as well.
I saw someone mention suppressors earlier in regards to hunting and I believe a few years ago some politicians wanted to ban them, but it was a failed attempt because hunters use them when hunting near populated areas in order to not couse distubance.
Suppressors are legal on rifles and 22 cal pistols\revolvers, I am not sure about the higher calibre handguns.
Here in Norway I find the gunlaws to be fairly ok. You can own shotguns and rifles from the age of 18 after passing a practical and theoretical course on hunting.
In regards to ownership of pistols and revolvers you have to be 21 years old and have had a safety course in firearm handling and a minimum of 6 month membership in a gunclub.
As a baseline you cannot own more then one weapon in each calibre, and if you want to get a weapon at you have to state specific reasons\area when applying. Examples would be hunting for different game and participating in several different classes in pistol\revolver shooting.
Crime rates in Norway are low though naturally firearms are used from time to time, but then mostly not involving people who are legal registered owners of firearms. As a generalization I percive there to be little problem in that regards.
In cases where there have been multiple killings as a result of use of firearms it has been mostly as a result of a family tradegy where sometimes including the suicide of the perpetrator.
In the recent years however there has been a growing debate wether the police (who is not armed in public) shall begin to carry while on duty due to a period of brutal armed robberies over a period of years. However this seems to have been somewhat put to rest when the amount of said robberies have subdued lately.
While I sometimes shake my head of the fact that the police is not armed I very well know it is a reflection of the safety and the mentality of the society that I live in.
I fully appriciate the possibility to own firearms and even though I have some beefs with the present laws regarding it I find it as previously stated rather fair.
carrying in public in Norway is strictly prohibited by civilians and one also have to buy a safe upon requiring the first pistol\revolver, however to my knowledge this doesn`t apply to rifles and shotguns as it then becomes a demand when reaching a total of four rifles\shotguns combined (I`m a bit unsure about that last part).
In total among Norways about 4.6 million inhabitans there are about 1,6-1,7 million privatly owned weapons I believe. In addition to that of course there migth be a certain number of non-registered weapons as well.
I saw someone mention suppressors earlier in regards to hunting and I believe a few years ago some politicians wanted to ban them, but it was a failed attempt because hunters use them when hunting near populated areas in order to not couse distubance.
Suppressors are legal on rifles and 22 cal pistols\revolvers, I am not sure about the higher calibre handguns.
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