European gun laws

[marine71]

I read this quote in an article related to the college campus shootings:

"Gun crime is extremely rare in Britain, and handguns are completely illegal. The ban is so strictly enforced that Britain’s Olympic pistol shooting team is barred from practicing in its own country."

I am curious about the first sentence,.... I have heard that their gun crime is out of control. Which is true? Is this more liberal media BS or is Britain really a peaceful, loving country that is setting an example for all other countries?

I get disgusted that the media perpetuates all manner of lies and I rarely see someone with clout standing out there and addressing the lies. Correct the falsehoods, call out the liars, and set the record straight.

This article went on to say "“Why, we ask, do Americans continue to tolerate gun laws and a culture that seems to condemn thousands of innocents to death every year, when presumably, tougher restrictions, such as those in force in European countries, could at least reduce the number?”

 

[K-Romulus]

Tell those folks that we will get back to them when we have a genocide of 10 million people.

Ask the next smart guy which government owned the WW2 partisans' guns.

Ask them about the experience of gun-control paradise Yugolavia a scant 10-15 years ago, when the central government, police, and their cronies were the only ones with all the guns.

The UK's gun crime has increased since the handgun ban, but it has always had lower armed crime than the U.S. It is all relative; even their "increase" is a fraction of our usual crime. Always has been.

 

[Tommygunn]

It has been my understanding that during the 20th century, the murder rate in the UK increased by roughly 150%. After Dunblane, most modern types of handguns were banned/confiscated. The murder rate -- and violent crime rate-- continued to rise.
The murder rate in London spiked between 200-1. In one year, it went up 300% -- though I understand it has receded some.
If you set aside murder, violent crime and burglary (hot burglary) is higher in the UK than in America.
If these trends continue, however, at some future point they might wind up with more murders than in the US (per 100,000 of population).

 

[mbt2001]

Most european countries opperate on a presumption of Guilt...

So think about what that would do to the crime rate in America or the, vice versa, what European crime rates would look like if they had a system based on the presumption of innocence.

I think that AND THAT ALONE is the answer to why we have a higher crime rate than they do.

 

[MD_Willington]

Same old BS, handguns banned... I hear the same thing about Canada...

NO they are not banned, but they are tougher to get if you are doing it legally...

Crooks can and do get handguns easilly in those countries.

 

[igor]

mbt2001, would you mind elaborating on that?

 

[sterling180]

The ban is so strictly enforced that Britain’s Olympic pistol shooting team is barred from practicing in its own country."

Enforced by Labour in February 1998,on the demands of the Gun Control Network,because there was a loophole in the handgun ban,on cartridge pistols.Note,that Labour's voters are primarily anti-gun,more so than the Tories.The Tories banned centrefires a few months earlier.

A clip of the Hungerford massacre in 1987,from the BBC,after Micheal Ryans,bloodbath on the streets of Hungerford in the county of Berkshire.This was the first,largest and worst gun massacre,on British soil,that had ever occured.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/...4x3&bgc=6699CC&nbram=1&nbram=1&bbram=1&news=1
Now you can see why people wanted semi-long arms banned.

 

[Guy B. Meredith]

Re: "Gun crime is extremely rare in Britain..."

Car wrecks are rare where there are no cars, drownings are rare where there are no standing pools of water, etc. They just turn to what they have at hand.

 

[obxned]

Citizens are stripped of firearms, so thugs with knives rule the island. Now they are banning pocket knives and possibly large kitchen knifes. What chance does the average law abiding citizen have against a group of hoodlums? Crime is at an all time high, and people are told to just give the crimminals what they want.

Good job, England!

 

[nibb]

Is then England the land with most Anti Gun Laws in the world? If not what land is it? And the other side too, which land is the most free in Gun Laws? It would be nice to compare each other.

 

[vlad the impaler]

Citizens are stripped of firearms, so thugs with knives rule the island. Now they are banning pocket knives and possibly large kitchen knifes. What chance does the average law abiding citizen have against a group of hoodlums? Crime is at an all time high, and people are told to just give the crimminals what they want.

Good job, England!

Please forgive me, but being British, and reading this actually made me want to join the forum and reply!

This statement is just plain wrong. Have a look at the Home Office statistics, http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/Page54.asp

See that peak in 1994-5? See it drop sharply? Now when was it we banned handguns....? It is there in black and white, and is unarguable. Violent crime, and indeed all crime has dropped sharply in Britain since the mid 90s.

It may come as a suprise to some of you, but we don't want guns here. I am 31 years old, and have never even held a gun. I don't know anyone who has, I have never had a conversation about guns at a party. I have never even met anyone who has even expressed a desire to own one. They are just not on the Radar for your average Brit. The same goes for all Europeans by and large.

We have crime, violence and problems. Some of us don't feel safe, and many are unhappy about crime and criminanlity despite the drop in statistics. The simple truth is that we don't feel the need to own a personal weapon, and that is that.

I myself don't look down on any of you for wanting to uphold your rights to own a weapon. I totally understand where you are coming from. Please don't presume that anyone else in the world has the same opinion as you guys about firearms though. We just don't.

 

[Speer]

Re: "Gun crime is extremely rare in Britain..."

But home invasions aren't, from what I've read.

No thanks.

 

[vlad the impaler]

Quote:
Re: "Gun crime is extremely rare in Britain..."

But home invasions aren't, from what I've read.

No thanks.

Where exactly did you read this then?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/10/19/uviolent.xml

This newspaper is about as right-wing as they get, but even they admit that the general trend is down. If you could point me to the article that contradicts this, and supports your assertion, that would be helpful.

 

[trueblue1776]

I betta get me some spare paring knives to store in the cella, how will oy cut me bloody apples?

 

[yhtomit]

That's odd

It may come as a suprise to some of you, but we don't want guns here. I am 31 years old, and have never even held a gun. I don't know anyone who has, I have never had a conversation about guns at a party. I have never even met anyone who has even expressed a desire to own one. They are just not on the Radar for your average Brit.

And yet ... here you are.

Not the same Vlad the Impaler from Slashdot?

timothy

 

[Heavy Metal Hero]

It may come as a suprise to some of you, but we don't want guns here. I am 31 years old, and have never even held a gun. I don't know anyone who has, I have never had a conversation about guns at a party. I have never even met anyone who has even expressed a desire to own one. They are just not on the Radar for your average Brit.

And yet you are on a firearms enthusiast forum trolling away. Feel free to be bias aganst guns because you aren't familiar with them.

 

[vlad the impaler]

I betta get me some spare paring knives to store in the cella, how will oy cut me bloody apples

Its blaadiee apples, me ole' mucker.

And yet ... here you are.

Not the same Vlad the Impaler from Slashdot?

I came here as this site is the first hit on Google for 'gun forum'. I was interested in what atitudes may have been to the unfortunate incident yesterday.

To be honest, I never intended to join, just lurk for a bit. However, the previous poster pushed me over the edge with sweeping statements about the situation here in Blighty that were just absolutely wrong. I have no intention of being a trouble-maker; it really is little to do with me and I think that you guys have every right to your opinions.

And no, I am not a member of Slash-Dot.

 

[Heavy Metal Hero]

I think that you guys have every right to your opinions.

As do you, but you won't feel very comfortable here.

 

[ETXhiker]

It may come as a suprise to some of you, but we don't want guns here.

Be careful about assuming your social circle and your main stream press speak for all Brits. Some of the members here at THR are your countrymen and would disagree with your broad statement.

 

[vlad the impaler]

And yet you are on a firearms enthusiast forum trolling away. Feel free to be bias aganst guns because you aren't familiar with them.

I am not trolling! I simply pointed out that the poster was incorrect in what he said. The statistics say so.

I am not biased against guns, I have not said a word about my opinion! You are correct when you say I know little about guns, but why does that automatically mean I am against them?

Like I said, I really do understand why a great many of you feel you should have the right to carry guns, and I don't disagree.

Frankly, it is none of my business. I felt moved to put the record straight where Britain is concerned, and that is why I have contributed.

 

[vlad the impaler]

As do you, but you won't feel very comfortable here

!!!

Why not? At what point did I say I am anti-gun???

 

[ABTOMAT]

I don't think that there's a firearms hobby or interest in the UK nearly as large as in the US, but I tend not to think that your impression reflects the state of opinion entirely. The biggest difference I've seen is that over there the interest is largely in hunting or other sporting uses, without the want of personal protection common in the US. I'd attribute at least some of that due to the greater risk of violence here on the whole compared to the UK.

I've observed a surprisingly large contingent of UK enthusiasts on many of the boards I'm on, although now many of them aren't able to own most or all of their previous collections. Airgun shooting and hunting has become massively more popular since the restrictions in real firearms ownership.

Continental Europe also has a good deal of gun owners, but it's hard to me to guage the level--due to the language barrier most of them have seperate discussion groups. Those who do participate on other boards talk of a fairly large culture.

 

[vlad the impaler]

I agree with that. There is a gun sporting element in most countries. I poorly phrased my first post in that regard. I have no doubt that ETXhiker is correct as well. Guns ado not seem to be on the agenda with respect to personal protection.

The rise in air-rifle shooting and paintballing (which I myself have done in the past) act as good outlets for those who do wish to shoot.

 

[akodo]

hasn't there been a big stink as of late where british officials have been underreporting crime rates, and reclassifying crime reports (example, a burglary where the shop owner says the hoodlum was armed with a gun is classified as a simple burglary rather than armed robbery, because there is no absolute proof a gun was used...plus outright falsehoods too) specifically to make the government's numbers look good? Weren't individual cities and communities calling for reform, and starting to track numbers on their own because they were questioning official numbers?


Just found this, it should be able to give you some good leads

A headline in the London Daily Telegraph back on April 1, 1996, said it all: "Crime Figures a Sham, Say Police." The story noted that "pressure to convince the public that police were winning the fight against crime had resulted in a long list of ruses to 'massage' statistics," and "the recorded crime level bore no resemblance to the actual amount of crime being committed."

For example, where a series of homes were burgled, they were regularly recorded as one crime. If a burglar hit 15 or 20 flats, only one crime was added to the statistics.

More recently, a 2000 report from the Inspectorate of Constabulary charges Britain's 43 police departments with systemic under-classification of crime – for example, by recording burglary as "vandalism." The report lays much of the blame on the police's desire to avoid the extra paperwork associated with more serious crimes.

Britain's justice officials have also kept crime totals down by being careful about what to count.

"American homicide rates are based on initial data, but British homicide rates are based on the final disposition." Suppose that three men kill a woman during an argument outside a bar. They are arrested for murder, but because of problems with identification (the main witness is dead), charges are eventually dropped. In American crime statistics, the event counts as a three-person homicide, but in British statistics it counts as nothing at all. "With such differences in reporting criteria, comparisons of U.S. homicide rates with British homicide rates is a sham," the report concludes.

Another "common practice," according to one retired Scotland Yard senior officer, is "falsifying clear-up rates by gaining false confessions from criminals already in prison." (Britain has far fewer protections against abusive police interrogations than does the United States.) As a result, thousands of crimes in Great Britain have been "solved" by bribing or coercing prisoners to confess to crimes they never committed.

Explaining away the disparity between crime reported by victims and the official figures became so difficult that, in April 1998, the British Home Office was forced to change its method of reporting crime, and a somewhat more accurate picture began to emerge. In January 2000, official street-crime rates in London were more than double the official rate from the year before.

 

[loach369]

Vlad the Impaler.

It is nice to see you exercising that most basic and fundemental of human rights namely the right to be wrong.

It is a fact that armed crime in the UK has gone up since handguns were banned in 1997.

You cite Home Office statistics? Do you really believe them. Have you not heard of lies, damn lies and statistics????

Try speaking to the Police Officers on the street dealing with the thugs with converted Brococks, reactivated pre95 spec deacts and the mass of new in the grease kit coming out the former Soviet Union. Then get back to me.

As for your comments re Brits and guns. I can assure you that there are hundreds of thousands of us in the UK who take part in shooting sports. Clay shooting is the fastest growing sport in the UK.

Re your comments about other Europeans not being interested you are so wrong. The Europeans are positively fanatical about shooting sports

And as to the parties you go to they sound like a real barrel of laughs. Not.