Evaluating Your Daily Carry Gun and Holster

[JR24]

@JR24 , you've experimented with different guns, holsters, holster positions, and starting stances. What results did you see? What conclusions did you reach based on those tests?

I haven’t noticed a ton of difference in holster location (5-12 o’clock) in general, the limiter is generally me and my reaction time, though a straight drop AIWB has often proven to be slightly faster (like 0.2 seconds or so from my average at my usual 1-2 o’clock IWB), but not enough to matter.

OWB obviously is faster if I don’t have to clear a cover garment, but concealment is problematic.

Frankly, my main takeaway from holster type and location is just concealment and comfort, I’ve settled on single clip kydex (Vedder light tuck is my favorite) at the 1-2 o’clock location because comfort and concealment are best for me. I also prefer a Glock 19 sized gun (4” barrel, around 5” height, 36 oz loaded or less) as my best compromise of comfort, concealment and shooting. In fact I don’t often notice any advantage, for me, in shooting larger guns in practical drills, and smaller guns don’t perform to my expectations.

Back to my last thoughts on holsters and locations are that leather feels a little slower than kydex to me (but my reason for choosing kydex is comfort, not speed) and barrels longer than 4-4.25” do seem to take a bit longer to clear, for example a commander 1911 vs a government.

I guess, as I ramble, weight is usually my main decider between guns and models because over 36 oz loaded and my back gets to hurting at the end of the day, which is a shame because I loved my 43 oz DW VBob as a carry gun for years. Just got sick of the pain, especially once I finally diagnosed what was causing it

 

[luzyfuerza]

Ken Hackathorn has seen a lot of shooters go through his training courses.

I love what he says about the Wizard drill:

"Competent and practiced shooters may consider this drill simple, but let’s be honest these folks make up less than one tenth of one percent of the people that carry firearms for self defense.

Try it, you may be in for a humbling experience. Don’t be surprised to find that those little 2″ airweight .38 special revolvers and pocket 380 autos are nearly impossible to pass this drill with. In police work we call this “a clue”."

https://soldiersystems.net/2014/12/06/gunfighter-moment-ken-hackathorn-7/

 

[Old Dog]

I'm wondering if the pocket holsters without the metal rim keep the gun in the holster when you don't want it to slide out.

Best pocket holster for a revolver I've ever found - Kramer horsehide. Absolutely great retention. Slick and fast (for a pocket holster).
https://www.kramerleather.com/collections/pocket-gun-holster

 

[luzyfuerza]

I shot the Wizard a few days ago with my XD and with my 442 snubbie. With the XD, I failed six of eight runs. And I failed seven of eight runs with my snubbie from the pocket. Like Ken says, these were humbling results for sure.

Here's the data:



There was no way that I was going to accept those fails as being the best I could do with my gear.




Analyzing the results with the XD:

1) Almost every test fail was due to being slow on the controlled pair at ten yards. Accuracy at ten yards was good.
2) I had plenty of time for the head shots, and accuracy was good.
3) Clearing the cover garment and the presentation were smooth and consistent.

I replayed the typical sight pictures with the XD at 10 yards, and decided that if I shot the test again, I could focus just a little bit harder on the motion of the front sight in recoil, and be just a little bit more careful to make sure that the second trigger press was SMOOTH as the front sight settled onto the target. Pretty much a minor, mental tweak, but something that I figured might improve my results.



Analyzing the results with the J-frame was tougher:

1) I was slow on every draw, even though my hand started on the butt of the gun. The holster lip reinforcement was capturing the gun, and on two draws came out of the pocket WITH the gun.
2) Accuracy, surprisingly, was OK with the little Airweight on both the head shots and the controlled pair.
3) Checking the gun, I found that the cylinder was not rotating freely. It was gummed up with bullet lube and fouling, and this was significantly raising the trigger pull weight.
4) I found that my trigger finger position wasn't consistent. Sometimes I felt the trigger on the pad of the finger, and sometimes at the distal joint. Thinking about this problem, I concluded that it might by occurring because of the cylinder drag and the inconsistent presentation from the pocket.

So, I:

1) Cleaned the gun and got rid of the gunk. The trigger weight came back down and the smoothness I've always loved about this gun returned. On subsequent dry presses, my trigger finger position returned to the pad of the finger.
2) Opened the lips of my pocket holster more than I've ever done in the past. Dry presentations got much smoother. And faster.
3) Watched PDN's "Art of the Snubbie", with Claude Werner, again. He pointed out that on J-frames, only the tiniest sliver of the front sight appears in the frame trough that serves as the rear sight, and that this makes quick sight alignment really tough on these guns. Duh, I thought! I had seen that sight picture on the snubbie countless times without ever observing how skinny the top of the front sight that I could see was! I realized that I had not painted the front sight on my J-frame like I have my other fixed-sight revolvers. So I did my normal revolver paint job on the snubbie's front sight, and hoped it might help me align the sights more quickly.




So, yesterday afternoon, I went out to shoot the same test again, trying to apply the lessons learned above. The results were much better!

I passed seven of eight tests with the XD. On the run I failed, I missed the time at 10 yards by 0.03 second. Times on the headshots were amazingly consistent with those of the previous day at the range. Accuracy was good on every run.

With the snubbie, the draw times on every stage were much faster! On average, I was 0.23 seconds faster at 3 yds, 0.52 seconds faster at 5 yds, 0.38 seconds faster at 7 yds, and 0.57 seconds faster at 10 yards than four days ago. Those are big improvements! I had plenty of time for all shots and my times with the snubbie were much faster at every distance than with the XD from concealment. That felt really good.

The pocket holster stayed in the pocket every time.

Accuracy was still good, except for one thing: I exhibited a nasty trigger mash. My mind had gotten hooked on going faster, and it was thinking that I had to press the trigger faster, so I pulled four headshots low out of the headbox. As a result, I failed those four tests. Were it not for those mashed presses, I would have passed all eight tests.

So, now I know exactly what to practice with on the snubbie to meet the Wizard Test's standards.

Here's the data:




This experience has been worthwhile to me, and I hope that it has been interesting and of value to the community. I encourage everyone to do the same...to test yourself and your chosen equipment, identify your shooting weaknesses and the weaknesses in your chosen equipment, and improve on them. Whatever they might be!

And a big thanks to all who contributed to this thread!

 

[luzyfuerza]

Best pocket holster for a revolver I've ever found - Kramer horsehide. Absolutely great retention. Slick and fast (for a pocket holster).
https://www.kramerleather.com/collections/pocket-gun-holster

Thank you!

 

[westernrover]

I recently changed from wearing work dungarees and a chore coat or flannel shirt to wearing more chinos or dress pants and sport coats or blazers. With the work clothes I could draw and get a first shot in about 1.80s starting with my hands in front of my chest. Now I am running 2.60s to the first shot and sometimes over 3s. It just takes longer to get the gun out and there is more opportunity to have trouble clearing the garments to reach the gun. I suppose if I wore a lycra jersey with sponsor logos, I'd be the fastest.

I have evaluated several significantly different guns as well as very small differences (like barrel length on otherwise the same gun), using performance measurements for speed and accuracy through standard drills. What the data for my performance has shown me, is that I do better with heavy guns with optical sights. Those two criteria affect my performance more than trigger, action type, barrel length, grip style, or compensators/porting. If the gun is heavy and has an optical sight, I can work through anything else. If it's lightweight with mechanical sights, none of those other helps are enough to make up the difference. It's not that I'd be helpless, but the advantage to me of weight and optics is measurable and the data shows it clearly.

 

[Rexster]

Best pocket holster for a revolver I've ever found - Kramer horsehide. Absolutely great retention. Slick and fast (for a pocket holster).
https://www.kramerleather.com/collections/pocket-gun-holster

Amen!

 

[JR24]

With the snubbie, the draw times on every stage were much faster! On average, I was 0.23 seconds faster at 3 yds, 0.52 seconds faster at 5 yds, 0.38 seconds faster at 7 yds, and 0.57 seconds faster at 10 yards than four days ago. Those are big improvements! I had plenty of time for all shots and my times with the snubbie were much faster at every distance than with the XD from concealment. That felt really good.

Very cool, glad you were able to make nice improvements so quickly!

Worth thinking about, especially when you are actually out and about is how you would draw in any given situation. For example if I’m trying to go fast from concealment I might hover my off hand near my shirt waiting for the beep, or be in surrender if that’s what the drill calls for but the reality is I’m rarely in such a position when I’m out and about, my arms and hands are usually not in quite the same position, so I’ve done some practice with more unusual draw locations.

This goes doubly for “hand on the butt” snubbie pocket draw. Unless you always walk with a hand in the pocket you might want to take a look at those times trying to dip your hand in the pocket from the beep.

I know folks will say they like the snub in the pocket because you can have the hand on the gun if you feel threatened, and that’s great and true. BUT, plenty of situations arise out there (especially if you take a look at Active Self Protection videos) where the action is a surprise, fast and in your face from no warning.

Not saying any style is wrong, but since you’re looking to improve and explore it’s worth considering the possibility (or maybe probability) that your hand wont be on the butt of your pocket gun when you need it.

If nothing else it might encourage you to practice the most efficient way to get your gun deployed in that case.

Other things to consider, as the wind chill goes below zero here, are heavier clothes, winter coats, and the like. The only time I tend to like a pocket snubby is deep winter when getting to my belt gun under my good parka is unlikely at best, so a pocket snub in the jacket is a good option I go to, though even that is pretty hard to use well with thick gloves, so there’s always trade offs in the matrix of carry choices

 

[Rexster]

Other things to consider, as the wind chill goes below zero here, are heavier clothes, winter coats, and the like. The only time I tend to like a pocket snubby is deep winter when getting to my belt gun under my good parka is unlikely at best, so a pocket snub in the jacket is a good option I go to, though even that is pretty hard to use well with thick gloves, so there’s always trade offs in the matrix of carry choices

On occasion, I have worn one glove, and kept the other, non-gloved hand, inside the jacket pocket, with (or on) the snub-gun. Of course, this is only going to work well, in extreme cold, if the pocket, itself, is sufficiently insulated.

I will concede that I live in an area where winter is only sporadically harsh, so, have less experience with this matter, that those of y’all living farther north, and/or farther inland from the Gulf of Mexico.

 

[JR24]

On occasion, I have worn one glove, and kept the other, non-gloved hand, inside the jacket pocket, with (or on) the snub-gun. Of course, this is only going to work well, in extreme cold, if the pocket, itself, is sufficiently insulated.

I will concede that I live in an area where winter is only sporadically harsh, so, have less experience with this matter, that those of y’all living farther north, and/or farther inland from the Gulf of Mexico.

Coats with the hand warmer chest pockets are ideal for that since it’s pretty natural to have your hands in the warmer pockets and there’s usually enough room for a snubby too.

But yeah, today it was a balmy 1 degree out when I dropped the kids off and did some errands so I had a hoodie with a Carhartt jacket and gloves on. I leave the jacket unzipped so reaching my IWB isn’t terribly difficult, but getting to a jeans pocket would be pretty problematic for me. Then again, the jacket has some nice pockets so a snubby there and hands in pocket is pretty reasonable 90% of the time I was out of the car or store, sure.

edit: my issue with jacket carry or even OWB depending on the jacket is that I get hot really easy and am always looking to shed my jacket ASAP when feasible inside, and I don’t like the idea of the gun dropping out of a pocket while I’m carrying the jacket or whatever. A me problem many others won’t have, for sure since I know I run hotter than just about anyone I know. Was awesome when I lived in Alaska, useful here in the Midwest but awful when I’ve been in the south

 

[tomrkba]

I like to use the “5 Yard Roundup” to see if a gun passes an initial test. For example, I consistently scored 48-55 with my 629 loaded with Federal 44A (44 Magnum 240 grains at 1240 FPS) and 85-92 when loaded with Speer Gold Dot 44 SPL 200 grain JHP. I couldn’t even make the second or third shots with 44 Magnum before the target turned.

Mantis X10 is very helpful for measuring draw to first shot.

 

[luzyfuerza]

Claude Werner posted the following recently:

"Pick a Standard, any standard, and see how well you can meet it. If your State requires a Qualification Course, that’s a good place to start. If not, pick some Standard, they’re readily available on the Internet, and use that. Then, over time, improve your performance against the Standard. For instance, using 100% as your goal on the Qualification instead of the minimum passing score. You’ll be better prepared if you do have to defend yourself and you’ll feel more confident in general."

https://tacticalprofessor.wordpress.com/2021/12/17/fundamentals-of-pistol-shooting-part-6/