Ex cop/currently works in morgue

[gpb]

I have always found that any report or study that supports my preconceived idea is always based on sound analysis and well founded data.

If the study or report does not support my preconceived idea then the analysis and data are definitely biased and faulty.

 

[couldbeanyone]

gpb posted

I have always found that any report or study that supports my preconceived idea is always based on sound analysis and well founded data. If the study or report does not support my preconceived idea then the analysis and data are definitely biased and faulty.

True, very true. Sad, but understandable. What I can't understand is someone like the O.P., who scours the internet, finds a report that draws conclusions that are not in evidence, then immediately posts an adversarial thread quoting it. BY GOD! He's gonna put those stupid 9mm carriers in their place.
I just don't get it.

 

[jmstevens2]

We killed 30-40,000 enemies so far in the Sandbox, I'm guessing 97% of those with the 5.56. The M14 is not that common in the field. MK262 will get and has gotten plenty of one shot kills out to 700m. Well known in the military the old M855 sucks. The new version is better but not optimal. MK262 is proving itself. I've been in contact with several DMR soldiers over the recent years. They stuffed the M14 in the trunk and kept the MK12 on hand, rarely bringing out the 7.62 due to bulk. A MK12 with MK262 ammunition will be capable of 700-800m kills. The M14 had its day, but there's a reason they've been in storage for this many wars.

I never said it didn't work. The subject was "best", I would say .50BMG or 7.62 is typically better in fewer shots. With today's refinements and optics the 5.56 works. I am one whose chose to stay on the M-60 rather than go back to the M-16 as long as I could get away with it.

 

[Wanderling]

Correct me if I am wrong, but some of the smaller caliber assault rifle rounds are actually much more likely to cause extensive internal damage due to high velocity low mass bullet tumbling inside the body, ricocheting from bones etc. I know that this was certainly the case with AK74 rounds. I heard and read many accounts of horrendous damage a single shot from this gun would produce vs a relatively clean straight wound channel from a 7.62mm AKM.

 

[jmstevens2]

The M16 did that, but as I understand it, when they changed the rifling to 1/12 that stabilized the bullet and that ended.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Several people know him personally that run various firearm related businesses; credible sources that are well known (LAV for one). It's not BS, it's factual.

LOL, you know people that supposedly know him and so that makes everything real?

I see an average of 8.2 autopsies per day/365 days per year, and I can tell you that when the chips are down, there's nothing that beats a 12-gauge. As for handguns, the name of the game is not only shot placement but how a properly-placed bullet acts once it gets there. I've seen folks killed by a bb to the eye and others survive after being hit by several well-placed rounds with a 9mm.

Based what I can verify, the fabricating of information starts at this point in the article, if not before. Nobody works 365 a year. And what does 8.2 autopsies a day look like? It looks like 2993 autopsies a year? Nobody does that many per year. He may see 8.2 autopsies a day like the head of my auto service place sees about 70 cars a day. In other words, he may "see" bodies goes go by him, but he doesn't examine them which he implies overtly.

Looking at ME offices with loads this heavy, they are handled by large staffs, usually with 10-15 forensic pathologists to handle the load (on average) plus a large administrative staff. Nobody works 24/7/365. At best, the guy signs off on the reports and so likely isn't even witnessing all the autopsies first hand.

Looking at 8.2 autopsies a day another way, how many are actually gun-shot related? Heck, the FCME in Atlanta has a pretty heavy load, but maybe only 1/3 of the autopsies are homicide/suicide-related and obviously not all of those are going to be firearms-related. So the notion of the oh-so impressive number of 8.2 autopsies a day comes down to 2-3 folks who might have died intentionally and some lesser number that were firearms-related.

The guy is throwing out the 8.2 a day because it is the only number he may have (assuming it was even real) because he doesn't actually have any quantified terminal ballistic information.

He is fabricating information. He may be real, but then he is a real liar.

 

[BSA1]

All we have here is the opinion of someone who is not willing to publish his real name and credentials in which he tries to make a case for big and slow bullet.

On the other hand we have published research that is well documented by Evan Marshall and Sanow in two books; Handgun Stopping Power and Street Stoppers. Their work is unbiased and compares most handgun calibers.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

On the other hand we have published research that is well documented by Evan Marshall and Sanow in two books; Handgun Stopping Power and Street Stoppers. Their work is unbiased and compares most handgun calibers.

Actually, we don't know the biases of M&S's work because we don't know exactly what data they used, how it was gathered, etc.

 

[Ben86]

You're correct in what you're thinking. Yes, the 9mm and .380 are the rounds I most often see on the autopsy table, but they're also the rounds that usually require multiple hits to make the kill. The standing joke in the morgue is to guess the caliber by looking at the x-rays. If multiple rounds show up on the x-rays more often than not it's a 9mm or .380 (or .32 or .25 or some mouse gun caliber). If only one round shows up, it could be an inordinately good hit with a .380 or 9mm, but more likely it's a .40 or .45.

This quote from the website screams BS to me. Multiple hits being required to stop an aggressor are common with all pistol calibers.

Once you have a decent caliber shot placement is what's really important, lots of shots in the right place.

 

[BSA1]

Hey Jethro er Double Naught Spy,

Another Double Naught Spy fan here.

I am confused by your statement. Marshall and Sanow research methods and fact finding were discussed and published many times back when their book was published. At the time they came under a lot of personal and professional attacks because of their findings.

M&S never promoted one caliber or bullet over another. In fact on pg. 5 of Street Stoppers it states "one of the main purposes of this book and its predecessor, Handgun Stopping Power, is to assist you in deciding what that "certain point" is for you."

 

[USAF_Vet]

We killed 30-40,000 enemies so far in the Sandbox, I'm guessing 97% of those with the 5.56.

You would be guessing incorrectly. Most of the kills scored in the sandbox wars do not come from small arms fire at all. Certainly there have been a great deal killed, but no where near the 97% you guessed.

This whole article is just another caliber war. You can kill someone with a stone and sling, or a .50BMG or andthing in between. There is little evidence for (and plenty of evidence against) the .40 and .45 caliber rounds being one-shot-man-stoppers. In theory, a .40 or .45 can kill in one shot, but so can a .380 or 9mm.

so to sum up the article and ensuing debate with a word... yawn.

 

[mljdeckard]

^^ This. We have put a lot of time and money into making sure that we don't have to fight wars by hunting the enemy, rifle to rifle. The most effective weapon is indirect fire. We keep air support on speed dial. And of those who were killed by small arms, I'm going to venture that the bulk of them were killed by crew-served weapons, not grunts hunting them one at a time.

Never assume that anyone you shoot with anything is just going to fall down and stop trying to kill you. Assume every one of them is a Terminator and will just keep coming. Be pleasantly surprised if they don't.

 

[Sean Smith]

On the other hand we have published research that is well documented by Evan Marshall and Sanow in two books; Handgun Stopping Power and Street Stoppers. Their work is unbiased and compares most handgun calibers.

A-hahahahahahahahahaha, no. Those books are complete garbage. They're the rodeo clowns of terminal ballistics.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I am confused by your statement. Marshall and Sanow research methods and fact finding were discussed and published many times back when their book was published. At the time they came under a lot of personal and professional attacks because of their findings.

Yes, the discussed methods, but without data there is no way to know if they actually applied those methods correctly. Without data, there is no way to know what biases they undoubtedly introduced into their sampling scheme. To date, nobody has ever been able to replicate their findings.

 

[ccsniper]

I am trying to locate a news story of a man shot 22 times with a .40 with 17 of them hitting center of mass and it took the guy several MINUTES to die after the last round was fired. Anyone able to help?

EDIT TO ADD: During the time he was shot he was still able to severely wound the officer shooting him.

 

[Confederate]

When I worked for the NRA a number of years ago, I collected numerous accounts of civilian shootings. One thing that floored me was the large numbers of bad guys killed with .25 autos and .22LRs.

I knew a guy who was working on his house when he was shot with a .22LR. It felt like a bad bee sting and then he became dizzy and had to lie down. He almost died from the shot, but it's interesting that the police were able to trace the gun shot from a couple of kids who stopped somewhere and fired their handgun several times. The distance (as the crow flies) was one mile!

My dad grew up in the country in Western Kentucky. He had a Remington 34 that he used to carry to school (those were the good old days!). He said that the .22LR was greatly underrated as a defensive weapon, and that there are several larger calibers he'd rather be shot with. The bullet's inability to penetrate the body made it a doctor's nightmare. (His term.)

One weapon I saw continually popping up in news articles were the Beretta .25 autos. They've been effectively used numerous times.



Another gun that's been both damned and praised is the Jennings J-22. Mine works for about four clip fulls and then begins to jam. If I give it a quick cleaning with a tooth brush, it goes for another four clip fulls. The .25 Raven also is used by both civilians and bad guys.

 

[ccsniper]

found this,
http://www.lawofficer.com/article/training/officer-down-peter-soulis-inci

 

[Nullcone]

lies, damn lies, and goats

On the other hand we have published research that is well documented by Evan Marshall and Sanow in two books; Handgun Stopping Power and Street Stoppers. Their work is unbiased and compares most handgun calibers.

Marshal and Sanow's work is in fact well known as misinformation in both the statistics and wound ballistics professions.

I was actually allowed to do an analysis of their results for a term paper in my sophomore stats class at ASU... turns out my Prof was a shooter

It was presented "neat" by myself in class at first (just the data/results/analysis) then the Professor went beyond my piddly attempt, and told the class what the data was actually discussing.

He proved, by statistical analysis, that there was NO data set (even if you included EVERY shooting in the time period they represented) that could have given the results claimed by M&S. That the results so closely matched their hypothesis was surely accidental, he said. The whole class (even the ones that went "ewww" when told we were talking about shooting human beings) snickered at that.

Later in the year, buoyed by his/our success at grossing out the class with shooting people, he presented the Strasbourg Goat data set as well. He restricted himself to showing that the weights of the animals followed no known distribution.

He also aware of, but did not present, information about M&S's financial arrangements/investments... among them a certain manufacturer of low weight/high speed handgun rounds intended for SD.

As my professor pointed out in class, this was serious stuff... people were making potentially life or death decisions on made up data. Not to mention spending taxpayer money arming police based on it.

And if all this isn't enough... ask Marty Fackler what he thinks about it.

Sorry, but M&S's study is and was BS.

 

[Lawdawg45]

Again, why are we looking and relying on sources other than the mounds of data and evidence the FBI has been keeping since the early 30's? The same data that we're all scrambling for in this thread is available and was formative in the issued caliber for Field Agents. In my own personal opinion, I wouldn't waste my time looking for the "one shot kill" round, since that is a tactical blunder to start with. Whatever caliber I carry, I'll fire the weapon until the threat is neutralized or my weapon is dry.

LD

 

[Steve Raacke]

Sorry, but M&S's study is and was BS.

I've been a "gun guy" for years (I'm 43yo and an Army Vet) and had seen the Evan Marshal stats published regularly for years in several periodicals. This thread is the first I've ever heard of their info/data being inaccurate or misleading. Honestly, how the heck did I miss this? Thanks to everyone regarding this and I want to learn more on the subject now.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

M&S problems...
http://www.firearmstactical.com/marshall-sanow-statistical-analysis.htm

http://www.firearmstactical.com/marshall-sanow-discrepancies.htm

http://www.kuci.org/~dany/firearms/stoppers.html

---------------------

When I worked for the NRA a number of years ago, I collected numerous accounts of civilian shootings. One thing that floored me was the large numbers of bad guys killed with .25 autos and .22LRs.

There are large numbers killed not because the caliber is effective, but because of how many people are shot with it. You will find a lot more people walking into the ER with a .22 wound than you will find them walking in with a 9mm wound. There is also a tremendous survival rate with .22 as well.

My dad grew up in the country in Western Kentucky. He had a Remington 34 that he used to carry to school (those were the good old days!). He said that the .22LR was greatly underrated as a defensive weapon, and that there are several larger calibers he'd rather be shot with. The bullet's inability to penetrate the body made it a doctor's nightmare. (His term.)

I don't see how the bullet would be a doctor's nightmare if it can't penetrate the body. With that said, of those that do, they are readily located with x-rays.

One weapon I saw continually popping up in news articles were the Beretta .25 autos. They've been effectively used numerous times.

Once again, it isn't the absolute number of cases that is salient, but the relative percentage.

I knew a guy who was working on his house when he was shot with a .22LR. It felt like a bad bee sting and then he became dizzy and had to lie down. He almost died from the shot, but it's interesting that the police were able to trace the gun shot from a couple of kids who stopped somewhere and fired their handgun several times. The distance (as the crow flies) was one mile!

I think the information in your story is exaggerated. While a .22 may travel a mile, it is unlikely to be traveling of sufficient velocity to penetrate very much. At 1 mile, a 40 gr bullet with a muzzle velocity of 1200 fps is down below 400 fps at 1000 yards.

The .22 may kill a lot of people, but it has a terrible reputation as a round that will physiologically stop people.

 

[Wanderling]

...

I don't see how the bullet would be a doctor's nightmare if it can't penetrate the body. With that said, of those that do, they are readily located with x-rays.

...

If the bullet goes right through, all the doctor have to worry about is the damage it leaves behind. Which may by itself be enough.

If the bullet gets stuck in the body, it has to be removed - creating further damage. Or left in with a possibility of problems down the road.

 

[BSA1]

For the purposes of a limited discussion I will comment on the article in http://www.kuci.org/~dany/firearms/stoppers.html

The author writes;

“A basic criteria for evaluating a study is whether, in fact, it measures what it claims to measure. In the case of Marshall and Sanow's "one shot stop" figures, what they claim to measure is the relative incapacitation capability of cartridges. But what the study actually measures is the tendency of shooters of any particular caliber to cease fire before incapacitating.

He then goes on to write “If shooters firing .32ACP were trained to fire until their subjects were incapacitated, the one-shot-stop index for .32ACP would be 100%.”

I still remember my math well enough to know the difference between one and more than one. His beef is with the ill-train masses that only shoot a attacker once instead of shooting multiple times. If he had truly taken time to read Street Stoppers, chapter 24, Effects of Multiple Bullet Impacts, he would have read “results show that the double tap is a overhyped technique that has little effect in the real world….I dropped it…. These days I tell my students to continue to fire until the attacker is no longer in their sight picture.”

There are problems with conclusion in the other articles but it will not change the minds of those that dispute M&S’s research.

 

[two gun charlie]

I have seen a man full of rage get shot several times by a 12 guage shotgun , high on drugs , still storming the policeman who was shooting him , almost killing him with a knife if it was not for another leo pulling a 9mm and shooting him right between the eyes.
I once had an employee who had a dent in his forehead , made by an ak 47 round that deflected off it. when it comes to combat , luck has a large role to play

 

[Double Naught Spy]

If the bullet goes right through, all the doctor have to worry about is the damage it leaves behind. Which may by itself be enough.

If the bullet gets stuck in the body, it has to be removed - creating further damage. Or left in with a possibility of problems down the road.

These are concerns common to ballistic wounds regardless of caliber. The .22 lr isn't special in this regard and my comments were specifically in regard to the claim that a .22 lr was a doctor's nightmare.