tryshoot
Member
I couldn't hit 1/5th as good with Glock 17 @ 100 yds! I'm not shooting with you. Good shooting, I wish I could.
You do know they make the same frangible ammunition for pistol as they do for rifle right? As well as other pistol ammunition made to limit penetration.
Never said they were but I bet a 45 ACP 185 gr DPX round will stop an aggressor every bit as fast as a .223 round will with a center mass hit.
Never said they were but I bet a 45 ACP 185 gr DPX round will stop an aggressor every bit as fast as a .223 round will with a center mass hit.No they will not, unless you have luck on your side. I have fought successfully with the 7.62 NATO, 5.56 NATO, 45acp, 38spl, 9mm and 7.62x39ComBloc at various times. I have used Main Battle rifles, Assault rifles/carbines, Sub Machine guns, Machine guns, and hand guns. (Just talking about small arms not going to shotguns) The rifles are all much more effective on target. Even the pip squeak 5.56 NATO is MUCH more effective than a 45acp, 9mm, 38spl, 40S&W, etc....
It is no contest. Rifle/carbine calibers win, most every time.
Now with all that laid out. My most fun to shot guns are 1 & 2, pistol caliber carbines. First is the Marlin 16" 1994 357 lever carbine. Shoots like a BB gun with 38's, and can roar like a full caliber rifle when I use Buffalo Bore loads that exceed 30-30 energy and muzzle velocities. Good for most anything under 100-125 yards. But much more importantly, extremely fun to shoot.
Most "gunny" folks who shoot that little Marlin go and track one of their own down. Besides the present Marlin debacle the older guns are hard to find and not cheap anymore.
Second is my Beretta Storm Cx4 9mm for the model 92 magazines. I have on of the EOTechs new transverse battery types on it. Lot's of fun. Again most folks who shoot it want one. (PS I did my own trigger job on it).
I also have a Marlin Camp carbine in 45acp, the Ruger PC9, Kel-Tec 2000 in Glock 9. etc. I like pistol caliber carbines. The are not going to replace my M1A/M14, SCAR, SIG556, XCR, M1 Carbine, or any of my other center fire or rimfire rifles or carbines either. They are a class of their own.
I like to think of them as the fun class. Light, easy to carry, shoot and buy ammo for. The only "fighting" purpose May be to arm non gun folks with weak upper body strength, maybe. That's it, I don't get them for fighting purposes, but for fun.
Go figure.
Fred
A .45 ACP will put a BG in a SD situation down a hell of a lot faster than a .223/5.56. The .223 will go straight through leaving a nice clean hole on both sides unless it hits a bone, the .45 is going to make a big ugly mess of them. I carried an M-16 for years
Then why do Special Weapons entry teams use M4's instead of 1911's? I assure you, the .223 is the better man-stopper.The .223 will go straight through leaving a nice clean hole on both sides unless it hits a bone, the .45 is going to make a big ugly mess of them.
A .45 ACP will put a BG in a SD situation down a hell of a lot faster than a .223/5.56. The .223 will go straight through leaving a nice clean hole on both sides unless it hits a bone, the .45 is going to make a big ugly mess of them. I carried an M-16 for years, while it is a great round and good for supresive fire it lacks the knock down punch
1 - yeah, so?The carbines have less stopping power than a mini 14 or sks.{1} In my case, they also required me to stock a couple calibers I had no real use for.{2}
Yet all the .30-30 offers is greater range. The .44Mag has been used effectively for the largest game on earth. The .30-30, not so much. It is at its limit with deer, hogs, black bear and would be minimal for elk. Conversely, the .44Mag can be loaded to mousefart levels for easy plinking with cast bullets. It can be reloaded with carbide dies. It can share loads with a good sixgun. It offers double the magazine capacity. In the east, it is highly unusual to need more range than a good .44 carbine covers.I cannot think of a single practical advantage it offers me over one of my 30-30's
Give it your best shotSeems to me that it is exceedingly difficult to explain pistol cartridge carbines to those who have an unfounded bias against them in such a way that they will understand the appeal. Although I will try.
A 9mm from something like a Beretta Cx4 can come out out at 2000 FPS. biggest gain is that you now have dramatically improved control versus even the best handgun.Pistol cartridges always gain a little velocity from rifle barrels. Particularly revolver cartridges which may gain as much as 700fps. To me, this is a nice bonus but not their strongest advantage. Fact is, pistol cartridges are VERY effective against all kinds of targets. No, their energy figures won't impress energy worshiping rifle shooters but energy is not everything. The crap about FMJ's in either flavor is moot unless you're a uniformed soldier shooting at uniformed enemy combatants. Moot. With a good flat pointed cast bullet or well constructed jacketed bullet, they are very effective. Yes, the .223 is a wonderful cartridge but it is a varmint blaster at best. The .45ACP, with proper projectiles, is very effective, even against larger critters than your average gang banger.
They are also vastly easier to hit with and at longer ranges. Any shoulder fired weapon with a longer sight radius is easier to hit with than a pistol. This is a given.
They offer vastly decreased recoil. A big plus for smaller or younger shooters. A big plus for rapid follow-up shots. A big plus for younger hunters because a good .357-.44Mag levergun puts a lot on target without beating up the shooter. Even the mighty .44, which gains 300-400fps over revolvers, has a fraction of the recoil of most rifles.
They are VASTLY quieter. Their quietness belies their effectiveness. This is an often ignored factor but pistol cartridge carbines are much quieter than rifles. The .223 in particular, which is usually chambered in a 16" AR for defensive use, is unbelievably loud when fired indoors. Not only will this permanently damage your hearing, it can also temporarily disorient the shooter. A big deal in a defensive situation. Pistol cartridge carbines will cause little if any effect in this regard.
The bottom line is that the pistol cartridge carbine perfectly fills the gap for when a pistol is not enough but a rifle is too much. The put plenty of killing power on target within their effective range and have a lot going for them. Sometimes, you just don't need a proper rifle.
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I cannot think of a single practical advantage it offers me over one of my 30-30's
The bottom line is that the pistol cartridge carbine perfectly fills the gap for when a pistol is not enough but a rifle is too much. The put plenty of killing power on target within their effective range and have a lot going for them. Sometimes, you just don't need a proper rifle.