Farewell to the Tomcat

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CrazyIrishman said:
The F-14 Tomcat is probably the longest serving fighter ever designed.

Another plane though not a fighter with an exceptionally long service life is the B-52.

I wonder how long will the JSF aircraft will last in our inventory.

I'd read in at least once defense assessment that with the role it performs as a standoff cruise-missile and other ordnance delivery platform, and with the upgrades the B-52 has recieved, (carbonfiber wings, glass-cockpit, AMRAAMs or Tomahawks on the wings), and as a platform for just multiple-aircraft sheer carpet delivery of JDAMs or cluster bombs in an area where air superiority has already been established...

...that the aircraft type will have been in service for nearly a century, 100 years, by the time it retires.

Wow.
 
The FA/18 Superhornet is a "compromise aircraft". It's not as fast as the F14, not as maneuverable as the older model FA/18, and the range is not spectacular either.

Thats what I have heard as well. The F14D was one of the best fighters in the world and the F18 Superhornet is not an improvement in abilities but only in age because the F14's were wearing out. The F14 was a mach 2.4 fighter with a radar system and the AIM54 phoenix missiles that enable them to engage up to seven independent targets at over 80 miles away. From what I have heard talking to the few navy pilots I have met and reading up on the subject many in the Navy wanted new Tomcats not Superhornets.

The Navy's purpose, was for it to replace the EA6B Prowler, F-14, and the older F/18, doing the jobs of all 3 adequately, kind of a "jack of all trades" aircraft..

The Navy wanted a strike aircraft and the Superhornet does the job better. The problem with that is from the end of WWII up to the point the navy got the F14 our fighters were not the best dogfighters out there. Our pilots were top notch but their aircraft were not as good as they were. I guess that most of what navy does now is drop bombs but the F14, F15 and F16 are world beaters and all were designed as dogfighters first and then secondary for air strikes.
 
LAWDOGKMS said:
It wouldnt' stand a chance against some of the more advanced Russian Fighters, such as the SU31 in a dogfight...but it does a little of everything fairly well.

American mediocrity at it's best..

I'd be willing to wager in favor of a US Navy Aviator in a mediocre Superhornet vs. an Arab pilot in any state of the art Russian fighter of his choice. Hell, I'd be willing to bet in favor of the American against a Russian pilot in the Russian jet (assuming front line pilots on both sides, not test pilots who have done nothing but play with all the jets' capabilities since their inception).

From various Air Force officers I've talked to, the F-16 isn't much to sing about either, performance wise, when compared to some of the more advanced stuff (like the F-15), but the pilots of the F-16s are almost always top-notch compared to their opponents.

The big difference is in training. As long as our pilots are better trained than their pilots, a gap in technological capability won't matter as much, and from what I understand, most air forces that we would tend to get in a fight with don't match up against ours even remotely in training. Hell, it seems that most times, the other air forces don't even get into the air before ours has gained air superiority, at which point the relative techical merits of the aircraft involved is moot.
 
The F-14 was the one with the wings that moved in and out? A nifty feature.

What about the F-22 (Raptor, i think?)- all i know is that it exists. Could it see future or current use?
 
out of curiosity, have we been in any dogfights lately? were there any in iraq I or II or bosnia, etc?

i've no idea. offhand, i'd guess less dogfighting and more lobbing missiles from extended distances.


also, why do we need A models? wouldn't the various stealth flavors be better suited to that?


i haven't been an airplane guru since the 6th grade :)
 
KriegHund said:
The F-14 was the one with the wings that moved in and out? A nifty feature.

What about the F-22 (Raptor, i think?)- all i know is that it exists. Could it see future or current use?

The F-22 Raptor, is an Air Force fighter, not navy. Its the "Air Supremacy" fighter.

To chime in on a diffrent point, Raguleader is right. Its all about training. Durning Korea, the Air Force enjoyed a 14-1 kill ratio, in somtimes infearior hardware to the russian migs.

Fast foward to Vietnam and we only had a 6-1 kill ratio over the commies. This was due according to my, Aerospace Science class, to the drop in training that took place between Korea and Vietnam.
 
Yes, the F14 Tomcat is the fighter with the "swing wing".

The photo of the Tomcat on edge passing the deck of a carrier is legendary in the Navy today. The pilot was grounded after that stunt, but said quite publicly that it was well worth it. (I believe he is still actively flying for the USN).

The F14 is bigger and heavier than the FA-18, giving the Hornet superior range.

The Hornet was not the replacement for the Tomcat, but was it's complement.

The Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), not the F22 Raptor, will eventually replace both these airplanes, and in differing configurations it will also be used by the Air Force, Army and Marines eventually filling the roles of the F15, F16, and Harrier (jump jet) as well.

It is not unlikely that the JSF will be the last US military fighter/bomber to be piloted by an on-board (human) pilot.

D. (Proud father of US Sailor working to earn his wings AND dolphin).
 
taliv said:
also, why do we need A models? wouldn't the various stealth flavors be better suited to that?

By A models I assume you mean the planes with the A before their model number (A6, A10, etc.) from what I understand, the difference between an Attacker and a Bomber, at least in our military, is that Bombers fly in, drop their payloads, and get out of dodge, while Attackers will loiter about, attacking multiple targets in the area, and oftentimes providing air support for forces on the ground. Thus, for an Attacker, ruggedness is most important, while for a bomber, payload is most important and for a fighter, targeting ability (and to a lesser degree, evasiveness) is most important.

Stealth would be better suited for bombers and fighters than for attackers, though from what I understand, the Superhornet is stealthier than either the Tomcat or the Hornet, using lessons learned from previous stealth and stealthy aircraft.
 
taliv said:
out of curiosity, have we been in any dogfights lately? were there any in iraq I or II or bosnia, etc?

i've no idea. offhand, i'd guess less dogfighting and more lobbing missiles from extended distances.


also, why do we need A models? wouldn't the various stealth flavors be better suited to that?


i haven't been an airplane guru since the 6th grade :)


Well, if you define a "dogfight" as a situation where opposing aircraft were both airborne, armed, and aware of each other at roughly the same time, then there were dogfights in both Desert Storm and Allied Force. Problem is, they mostly turned out pretty one sided due to one reason or another. The importance being, there have been dogfights.

Back in the late '50s early '60s there were a lot of folks saying we don't need cannon armed aircraft anymore, missiles will be able to handle it all. That led us into an F-4 with no internal gun, eventually moded to carry a gun pod, and then replacement aircraft (F-15 and F-16) that both had internal guns.... yeah I guess we don't need true "fighters" anymore ;-)
 
Delija said:
The photo of the Tomcat on edge passing the deck of a carrier is legendary in the Navy today. The pilot was grounded after that stunt, but said quite publicly that it was well worth it. (I believe he is still actively flying for the USN).

That photo was taken during a tactical demonstration at sea, and the pilot was none other than Dale Snodgrass, CAPT, USN (ret). Nowadays Dale flies airshows on a regular basis- I've seen him performing in an F-86 Sabre, one of many demonstrations he does.

Going back to the photo, refer to this interview.

[Q]That shot off of the America is very widely used….most people seem to initially think it is either an edited photo, or a risky maneuver. What was it?

[A]It's not risky at all with practice…it was my opening pass to a Tomcat tactical demonstration at sea. I started from the starboard rear quarter of the ship, at or slightly below flight deck level. Airspeed was at about 250 knots with the wings swept forward. I selected afterburner at about 1/2 mile behind and the aircraft accelerated to about 325-330 knots. As I approached the ship, I rolled into an 85 degree angle of bank and did a 2-3 g turn, finishing about 10- 20 degrees off of the ship's axis. It was a very dramatic and, in my opinion, a very cool way to start a carrier demo. The photo was taken by an Aviation Boson's Mate who worked the flight deck on the USS America. Just as an aside...the individual with his arms behind his back is Admiral Jay Johnson, the immediate past Chief of Naval Operations for the Navy.
 
No we have not been in any dogfights lately, but that is because of who we have chosen to fight. The Israeli's get in dog fights fairly often, and they have used our (I)f-15 to great effect. It has been said that the F 15 has never lost a ACM matchup against any one.


Now this Dog fight thing might just come back to haunt us. If we were to get into a shooting match with China, India, Pakistan or Russia we would be haveing Dog fights with people who do in fact know how to fly.

the F14 is being killed off because we allow the Legislature to run procurement meaning that every plain has parts made in every congretional district so that every one wants a piece of the pie and the cost goes insanely high...

Although the Fa 18 is a great aircraft. it is not the Air superiority fighter that the F14 is. To trust a floating city like an aircraft carrier to anything les is just short sighted.
 
pete f said:
Although the Fa 18 is a great aircraft. it is not the Air superiority fighter that the F14 is.

I'm wondering how many of both you've had a chance to fight?

I've fought against both the Hornet and two flavors of the Tomcat (A and D models). With the exception of a slight edge in long-range radar work that the F-14D had, I'd take the Hornet any day over the Tomcat.

The F-14 was a nice airplane for intercepting bombers in the 1970s, but is quite obsolete in the current scope of things. The fact of the matter is that it's big, heavy, and comparatively not too maneuverable. The much-touted AWG-9 radar that the airplane was built to showcase has been long since surpassed by the digital radars in the F-15C and E, F-18, and others (even the APG-71 that was in the F-14D!). In fact, in the last 10 years or so they've fought off getting retired only by picking up an ad-hoc tactical bombing role (the airplane was never designed to drop bombs). They were very limited in that role, too, because of the poor cockpit mechanization as well as the location where the laser designator pods had to be mounted.

The Tomcat was a great airplane, served her time well. But it's time to move on.
 
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Hacker,

How does the Super Hornet compare with the original in regards to ACM?

From talking to pilots at Miramar, I always heard the Hornet was a good plane air to air, but the Super Hornet had put on a lot of weight and accessories. Bloated is one description I've heard.
 
Gunsnrovers said:
How does the Super Hornet compare with the original in regards to ACM?

From talking to pilots at Miramar, I always heard the Hornet was a good plane air to air, but the Super Hornet had put on a lot of weight and accessories. Bloated is one description I've heard.

I haven't personally fought a SuperBug, so I can't really attest to what you're asking.

I have heard, anecdotally, the same things that you state -- that the SuperBug is overall not really an improvement over the standard Hornet with respect to dogfight maneuverability, and in some ways might even be a regression.
 
The F-14 was too expensive when it was built. It almost killed Grumman Aircraft, now part of the Northrop-Grumman super conglomerate.

Computer controlled adaptive wings on the F-16 and F-18 are less expensive than swing wings and require less maintenance.

The F-14 was a good solution for it's day. Now we can have more performance for less money with lower maintenance requirements.

Note the F-16C out performs the swing wing British Tornado in everything except top speed. Problem remains going supersonic is seldom necessary, when it is Mach 1.5 is adequate, because you run out of fuel real real fast.

Now the ultra expensive F-22, now operational I'm told, can super cruise above Mach 1 and does it at full military power, not using afterburner. That will change tactics, BUT it will have a HUGE IR signature, which will make it vulnerable to Russian passive IR systems and missiles.

Geoff
Who prefers foxholes that don't attract so much attention. :eek:
 
Jeff Timm said:
Note the F-16C out performs the swing wing British Tornado in everything except top speed. Problem remains going supersonic is seldom necessary, when it is Mach 1.5 is adequate, because you run out of fuel real real fast.

According to a Texas Air National Guard mechanic I was talking to, if you filled up every fuel tank on an F-16A, and had it carry three drop tanks full of fuel (two wing and one centerline), then at full afterburner, every fuel tank would be completley dry in less than three minutes. It's really more of a "I need to change my tactical situation quickly" thing more than a "I need to get somewhere quickly" thing. I doubt the F-16C improved that fuel economy at full AB too much.
 
I'm not real worried about a state of the art tussle.

The first squadron of F22 Raptors went operational in late November.

During trial excercises, a SINGLE raptor engaged and defeated an entire SQUADRON of the bad guys best, before the bgs even had a chance to FIND the F22, nevermind engage it.

IIRC, their motto is "First look, first kill capability"
 
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I confess I don’t have recent fighter time. I flew F-4s in the ‘70’s. I only flew against the F-14 once and that was inclusive. I did fly against the F-15 quite a bit. As a Marine, the F-15 was the a/c I would have liked to fly. It was, and still is, terrific.

The F-18 was a result of the search for a day VFR (visual flight rules: i.e., little reliance on radar and radar guided missiles, relying on IR missiles and gun) fighter. That was a result of the Mid-East War of 1967 (Arab-Israeli war). In that war, Day VFR fighters did well. By the time the fly-off of the YF-16 and YF-17 occurred, the ’73 war had occurred and the day of the Day VFR fighter was over. The Air Force picked the F-16, in part because it had the same engine as the F-15 and they needed an injection of money to fix the engine for both a/c. They put a good, small radar in it and put the AIM-120 AMRAAM missile on it. The Navy found the F-16 couldn’t be made to work on a ship and took a redesigned version of the YF-17 now called the F-18. They doubled the fuel capacity and enlarged it, but in my opinion, it was still too small. It had a very thin wing with automatic maneuvering leading and trailing edge flaps. It worked very well as a fighter, but when loaded up with external stores, caused too much drag limiting its range.

In my opinion, the F-14 went too far in the other direction. Movable wings are a big trade-off. Increased weight and complexity against some marginal improvements in performance. The radar, in its day, was pretty good, but it came out of the F-111, so it wasn’t exactly state of the art, and it was big and required a big airframe to carry it. The Phoenix missile was good in its day, but it weighed about 1000 lbs. It required a big a/c to carry it. It also came from the Navy version of the F-111. It has been retired for quite a few years now. As all a/c grow older, the maintenance costs increase. The F-14 is a very expensive a/c to keep in service.

I think, like Goldilocks, the Navy has gone through the too big (F-14), and too small (F-18A through D) and has hit on the just right size (F-18E/F). Is it the perfect fighter? Hardly. Any Navy fighter is a compromise. It is the same size as the F-4, but has a much better wing, thicker than the F-18A-D, to carry external stores, and more fuel than the old F-18s or the F-4, almost as much as the F-14. In my opinion, while it has a lot more power than the F-4, it is still probably a little under powered. It will, in similar configurations, fly rings around the F-14. With that capability, it has some magic systems to help it get the first shot.

First shot with something like the AIM-120 is a big deal. You take out a bunch of the enemy right off the bat, and break up the rest as they start running around trying to beat the missiles. While a gun is necessary, it is useful only after you have gone through your radar missile envelop, your IR missile envelop and find yourself in close with someone. Apparently, no one has found himself in that position lately, because, to my knowledge, all our air to air kills in the last couple of wars have been with missiles.

The Joint Strike Fighter could be interesting, but it must first survive the Washington battle field. It has had prototype fly-off, and they are building the first group of engineering development models. It is still years away from fleet use. The F-18E/F has been making carrier cruises for several years now.

The F-22 could also be very interesting. It is getting into operational service now. It has a lot of power, a huge wing for low wing loading, good speed and turn performance that should be better than the F-15. The radar, in combination with the low radar cross section, should guarantee it gets the first shot. Low radar cross section is one of these big time two edged sword deals, like swing wings. It certainly has advantages, but it also carries a lot of baggage as well. We shall see how it all plays out.
 
What's interesting is the development of unmanned remotely-piloted aircraft in recent years, and their finally coming of age in a practical sense for certain areas.

It will be fun to see where economics/politics/downsizing/improved technology takes it in the next 20 years.

(loves the manned fighter...)

.
 
/*The F14 is bigger and heavier than the FA-18, giving the Hornet superior range.*/

I think you are a 180 degrees off here, partner. The FA-18 is known for its short legs, and the Tomcat outclasses it to the point that they converted some to "Bombcats" to fill in as long range strike aircraft. Here is a cut and paste on the range:

"In theory the F-14 will be replaced by th F/A-18E/F, but even that will not have the same range in strike missions (475nm for the F/A-18 compared with the F-14's 650nm)"

/*I've fought against both the Hornet and two flavors of the Tomcat (A and D models). With the exception of a slight edge in long-range radar work that the F-14D had, I'd take the Hornet any day over the Tomcat.*/

As far as any Hornet whippping a Tomcat in a dogfight, why would a Tomcat give away its advantages of the long range Phoenix missile and superior speed to engage in one? Only "dogs" dogfight, 'Cats stalk and pounce...usually from 80-100 miles away.
 
I think the Navy got caught with its pants down (I mean besides the Tailhook Scandal) when they passed on the A-6F to pursue the A-12 Strike aircraft that never came to pass. They ended up with not enough suitable airframes.

In fact, the entire Armed Forces needs more and newer airframes, regardless of the "Gee Whiz" technology. Look at the age of the Marine CH-46 helicopters, I think they average 28 years, while we wait for the Osprey controversy to be settled. No suitable replacement in sight for the Navy's KA-6Ds, EA-6Bs (which they have to share with the Air Force, who retired their EF-111 Ravens), the S-3 Vikings, and the list goes on and on with the A-10, KC-135, CH-47...
 
MillCreek said:
Wow, and I had always thought that photo was a PhotoShop job. Fascinating interview, and just one of the many useful things I have learned on THR.

:D

Glad to be of service. I had been under the impression that it was an edited photo as well, reinforced by the opinion of a Navy pilot (although he was a helo flyer, so...). Anyway, I'd seen Snort perform previously at an airshow in his Sabre, and just the other day, my brother and I were engaging in a time-honored AIM ritual, whereby we see who can find the coolest photo at www.airliners.net to send to each other. Well, I started sending him F-86 photos, many of which were of Snort performing, and later I decided to do some research on the man. I found that interview and wasn't expecting to read about that photo, which I hadn't thought of in years.

And all this happened just about a week ago, just in time to contribute to this thread! Funny how things work sometimes...
 
bowfin said:
As far as any Hornet whippping a Tomcat in a dogfight, why would a Tomcat give away its advantages of the long range Phoenix missile and superior speed to engage in one? Only "dogs" dogfight, 'Cats stalk and pounce...usually from 80-100 miles away.

You are waaaay overestimating the capabilities and usefulness of the Phoenix. That missile was designed to kill non-maneuvering bombers. At the ranges you're talking about, it has no capability against a mildly maneuvering target like a fighter.

Remember that missiles are not magic...they are a hunk of iron that is accelerated a finite amount by a rocket motor. Once that motor burns out, it is running entirely on inertia and potential energy. The further away from motor burn-out it gets, the less energy it has. The less energy it has, the less it will be able to change its direction.

If the target maneuvers, the missile must also maneuver so as to complete the intercept. Since the target is a jet with a powerplant that is still developing thrust...you figure out who is going to run out of energy first.

The Phoenix, like the F-14, has great propaganda and people believe that it can accomplish miracles. Unfortunately, the reality is that both are relics of the 70s and 80s. Think about it...if the Phoenix were such a great missile, why aren't they building any more aircraft to carry/use it?
 
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