FBI Protocol Standards Results ?

[blarby]

Howdy Howdy !

I'm trying to put together a binder of performance standards of handgun ammunition as a reference for store use.

Specifically, what I'm looking for is the FBI Standard testing results that can be printed and shown to folks selecting their ammunition.

As an example, Hornady offers their gel penetration results on their website...just one example.

So, my google-fu is failing me yet again... basically any links to FBI standard testing ( not TTAG ! ) would be great !

Thanks again.

 

[Iggy]

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

 

[strambo]

I love that Luckygunner link. Best visual presentation of such a large set of data. Very instructive to also see how the numbers may not tell the whole story. There are a few loads with good average penetration and expansion numbers but the photo of the 5 recovered bullets show a bunch of mangled and inconsistent ones.

Within each caliber, there are 3-4 solid loads to choose from. I'm surprised how well some of the 115g 9mms did, I never considered a 115g defensive load before. That PNW Arms 115 gr Tac Ops SCHP load looks fantastic.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Those stats will only be good once they are tested in the field, as in gun fights, and then studied in the morgues via autopsy and police reports. FBI guestimation by formula is just that, an educated guess.

And yes, such studies have been made before.

Deaf

 

[MICHAEL T]

FBI far from experts in shoot outs. Look to the Border Patrol they use their guns more.
I trust their thinking over the suit and tie guys.

 

[Jenrick]

The FBI actually checks their results in ballistic gel against real world results in gun fights. In essence if it went x" in gel and expand y percent what happened in a real world shooting? Their results are statistically significant and show a very high degree of correlation. One of their presentations shows the actual recovered bullets from a shooting and from a gel test, along with the data. It's was pretty much identical, pretty impressive science. I can say from all the research, testing, and talking with folks at other agencies, the FBI does very good work.

Unfortunately the FBI's data is LE only, and if it's released publicly the agency that did so would be in hot water. I will say the FBI's results are usually similar to what the manufactures publish, but I will say the manufactures cherry pick the best results (as expected).

-Jenrick

 

[Deaf Smith]

The FBI actually checks their results in ballistic gel against real world results in gun fights.

Huh? Never heard of the FBI being morgue monsters. Never even seen such as a SOP9 (NYPD) having such data. They haven't even published a condensed version just giving the basic stats of 'real world results'.

Come to think of it, even when they went to the 10mm they didn't even mention any verification via 'real world results'.

So I doubt it.

Deaf

 

[481]

The hours that went into producing all that data must've been tremendous. Just wish that they would've calibrated the blocks in keeping with the established standard...

 

[Deaf Smith]

I just wish they went to the hospitals, morgues, and checked police records to see what works and what does not.

Deaf

 

[Jenrick]

Deaf Smith: I don't know when the last time you looked at the FBI's data if I ever (I don't know if you were ever LE), but the 2015 version has a very good presentation and review of everything. They don't do it in all cases obviously, and it's mainly when their agents are involved in shootings, but they do apparently do the morgue crawl. I have no clue WHEN they started looking at real world results to validate their testing, but they do have data on things now. I also have no clue of the extant of the the validation they have done, either, but they have at least done some.

-Jenrick

 

[blarby]

Thanks very much for the info guys, I greatly appreciate it.

 

[mavracer]

Huh? Never heard of the FBI being morgue monsters.

The origin of ballistic gel testing stems from Duncan MacPherson's work as to modeling wounds.

 

[strambo]

I just wish they went to the hospitals, morgues, and checked police records to see what works and what does not.

Deaf

Ok, so what specific ammunition should the OP's customers choose based on the morgues, hospitals and police records? Is this info contained in the SOP 9 report?

What real-world source of info would you recommend I consult to choose the specific carry load for my 9mm P226?

 

[Deaf Smith]

Massad Ayoob!

Deaf

 

[w129]

I can't remember where I saw it, but there is a list out there (IWBA) with the rounds that meet the FBI criteria.

I found it on another forum, the list was put together by Dr Gary Roberts. Very well respected in the self defense community.

A few have been added in the year and a half since this list was published but it remains a good guide.
--------------------------------------------------

The following loads have all demonstrated outstanding terminal performance:

9 mm:
Barnes 105 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Fed 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Speer 124 gr +P JHP (53617)
Win 124 gr JHP (RA91P)
Win 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Fed 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Rem 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer 147 gr JHP (53619)
Win 147 gr JHP (RA9T)

.40 S&W:
Speer 155 gr JHP (53961)
Fed 165 gr JHP (LE40T3)
Win 165 gr JHP (RA40TA)
Win 165 gr JHP (RA401P)
Fed 180 gr JHP (LE40T1)
Rem 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB)
Speer 180 gr JHP (53966)
Win 180 gr JHP (RA40T)

.45 ACP:
Barnes/Taurus 185 gr JHP
Federal 230 gr Tactical (LE45T1)
Speer 230 gr Gold Dot (23966).
Winchester 230 gr Ranger Talon (RA45T)
Winchester 230 gr +P Ranger Talon (RA45TP)

Again, Roberts indicates that this list is NOT all-encompassing and there are some loads produced since this list was published that have also exhibited sufficient terminal ballistics.

If you don't know which round to carry, pick one from this list that functions in YOUR gun and then worry about your practice instead of your carry load.

If you do not know who Gary Roberts is, please Google.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

FBI far from experts in shoot outs. Look to the Border Patrol they use their guns more.

IIRC, Border Patrol adopted FBI’s terminal performance criteria a few years ago, after energy-transfer advocate John Jacobs (former INS/BP Firearms chief) and his cadre retired or moved on.

The FBI actually checks their results in ballistic gel against real world results in gun fights.

Prior to adopting 10% type 250A ordnance gelatin as a soft tissue simulant in the late 1980s FBI compared terminal performance results from 200 actual shootings to terminal performance results observed on properly prepared and calibrated ordnance gelatin.

Well over two decades of shooting incident experience by law enforcement agencies across the US has proved the validity of ordnance gelatin and the FBI’s terminal performance criteria.

The hours that went into producing all that data must've been tremendous. Just wish that they would've calibrated the blocks in keeping with the established standard...

Clear Ballistic Synthetic Ballistic Gelatin is not the same as 10% gel prepared to FBI specs. There has been no testing done, that I’m aware of, to correlate it with actual shooting terminal performance data.

Comparison of terminal performance in Clear Ballistic Synthetic Ballistic Gelatin versus properly prepared and calibrated type 250A ordnance gelatin reveals differences: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pqPBnSYTIc

The origin of ballistic gel testing stems from Duncan MacPherson's work as to modeling wounds.

The late US Army doctor Col. Martin Fackler, when he was assigned to Letterman Army Institute of Research, Combat Casualty Care unit, founded and directed the Wound Ballistics Laboratory. He is responsible for developing the 10% Type 250A ordnance gelatin solution that is the standard today.

Fackler stated – “The field is the ultimate laboratory.” He took actual shooting data and developed a model (properly prepared and calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin at 39-degrees F) that accurately depicted the wounding effects and bullet deformation observed in actual shootings. Fackler was an avid hunter. He also worked closely with law enforcement.

Duncan MacPherson, an engineer, investigated the physics of wound trauma and determined the qualities required of a soft tissue simulant to accurately depict realistic results in typical human soft tissues.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Prior to adopting 10% type 250A ordnance gelatin as a soft tissue simulant in the late 1980s FBI compared terminal performance results from 200 actual shootings to terminal performance results observed on properly prepared and calibrated ordnance gelatin.

So they took into consideration coats, belt buckles, forearms in the way, cell phones in the breast pockets, the obese, denim cloths, weight lifters with strong pictorial muscles, etc.. or just assume you have a naked individual of average build?

And that just one reason why I don't put much stock in the FBI reports.

Deaf

 

[Shawn Dodson]

The 12" minimum penetration depth standard is based on informed medical opinion and addresses arms, corpulence and muscular hypertrophy.

Heavy clothing is addressed by the FBI protocol although the IWBA's four layer heavy denim test is superior.

Bullets that perform well against automotive windshield glass have proven to perform well against dense bone. This and the FBI's sheetmetal tests cover your other concerns.

Many major law enforcement agencies at the federal, state, county and municipal levels also have programs to verify and validate duty ammunition terminal performance.

In the majority of shootings in which modern ammunition meeting FBI terminal performance critera are used the recovered bullets and wounding effects closely match the IWBA's four layer denim test results.

 

[Deaf Smith]

The 12" minimum penetration depth standard is based on informed medical opinion and addresses arms, corpulence and muscular hypertrophy..

Informed medical opinion? Never seen any documentation about "informed medical opinion" over arms, corpulence and muscular hypertrophy, etc... Who's opinions? Who are the doctors?

Heavy clothing is addressed by the FBI protocol although the IWBA's four layer heavy denim test is superior..

Denim is not the only cloths...

Bullets that perform well against automotive windshield glass have proven to perform well against dense bone. This and the FBI's sheetmetal tests cover your other concerns..

Uh.. JHPs that go through windshields tend to collapse. Is that what they are saying?

Many major law enforcement agencies at the federal, state, county and municipal levels also have programs to verify and validate duty ammunition terminal performance..

Never heard of these 'federal, state, county and municipal level' programs, Which 'federal, state, county and municipal levels'.

In the majority of shootings in which modern ammunition meeting FBI terminal performance critera are used the recovered bullets and wounding effects closely match the IWBA's four layer denim test results.

And these are published?

Can FOIA get them?

Deaf