FBI Requirements for Duty Ammunition for Handguns

Status
Not open for further replies.
The way that improvements in bullet engineering have affected the terminal performance of the other calibers the FBI would consider for use, are not relevant to the FBI. As I explained in my post above, the FBI only tests for terminal performance in terms of a pass/fail evaluation. They don't rank the calibers in terms of terminal performance, they only assess them as to whether they pass or fail.

So the calibers that ALREADY passed before the bullet engineering improvements were made STILL pass after the bullet engineering improvements were made. They can't "pass better" than they already did, so it doesn't change anything. What changed is that now 9mm ALSO passes and so it's eligible for selection whereas it was not eligible before.

This is one of the two big things to understand in the current CW of handgun terminal ballistics. The FBI test is based on a binary pass/fail model, and people reverse-logic-ed that into an understanding that handgun terminal ballistics are binary in reality (as opposed to the testing model). Binary assessments may make good sense when it comes to procurement requirements (that's common in procurement for all sorts of things having nothing to do with guns or even government contracting). It doesn't mean that there are not actual gradations of efficacy on either side of the model's binary dividing line.

The other big thing to understand is that Fackler and Roberts are coming at the problem from the perspective of trauma surgeons. They aren't studying gunfights... they are studying the bodies (alive and dead) that show up in trauma centers or field hospitals ~30 minutes later. So the only thing they are giving weight to is permanent wounding. Which is pretty on-point for most military analysis (because the objective there is often to kill or permanently disable an enemy soldier), but it's not directly on point to the objectives of a lawful civilian (including LEO) self-defense user of a handgun. The handgun is used to alter behavior - specifically, to cause the threatening person to cease their aggression as rapidly as possible. Permanent wounding is surely somewhat correlated with this goal, but it is an indirect measurement of the thing we care about.

But there are things a trauma surgeon won't detect 30 minutes after a fight that were dispositive in the fight itself. Take guns out of it and imagine a fistfight. An aggressor who is swinging away might take a hard punch to the gut and be staggered, trip, and fall - and themselves cease their attack from the moment of the gut punch. If the other person then kicks the fallen fighter in the head, or if the fall includes the fighter's head hitting a concrete curb, he may die. The trauma surgeon evaluating things 30 minutes later would diagnose the head kick/impact as being the key to the fight, because they'll find fractured skull bones and brain swelling or bleeding. But they'll likely find little or no evidence of the gut punch, even though that was the thing that caused the aggression to cease.

To summarize, you have to understand that much of the current terminal ballistics thinking is based on 1) an indirect measure of efficacy (wounding); and then 2) filtered through some approximations of the things that are expected to generate the measured thing (gel tests as a proxy for wounding); and then 3) reduced to a binary adequate/inadequate result because of a procurement test. These all may be fine ways of making a decision about what ammo to use, but nobody should be fooled into thinking that this is a fully-developed model that closely tracks the real world. There are all sorts of shades of probability and onset of effects that this simplified model simply discards.
 
That puts the average guy in a bad spot. The decrease in velocity could very well reduce expansion to zero and cause over penetration. Which could injure or kill innocent people with a pass through of a bad guy.

This only makes sense if you assume the majority of one's shots actually hit the bad guy.

But... they do not. The vast majority of shots fired miss the bad guy entirely.

Additionally, not many bad guys are 12 to 18 inches "deep" at any given position on the body, or angle of penetration of the body.

Which means many shots with ammunition that has passed the FBIs testing standards stand a fair chance of completely penetrating the body.
 
This only makes sense if you assume the majority of one's shots actually hit the bad guy.

But... they do not. The vast majority of shots fired miss the bad guy entirely.

Additionally, not many bad guys are 12 to 18 inches "deep" at any given position on the body, or angle of penetration of the body.

Which means many shots with ammunition that has passed the FBIs testing standards stand a fair chance of completely penetrating the body.

I agree, shots on target and shot placement is WAY more important than all of this bullet testing. But I will not carry a load that repeatedly passes through a clear gel block covered in denim or moderate clothing, no matter what other testing proved it to function correctly. We have too many good choices to be loyal to one manufacture or line of ammo.

I also agree that a pass through of an expanded bullet could happen but the damage to a second person would probably be a severe bruise and/or not life threatening.
 
I'm not really concerned about the issue with over penetration in handgun ammunition. I'm concerned about having sufficiently capable ammunition with which to make the bad guy stop whatever it is he's doing.

Over penetration of handgun ammunition, regardless of what it is, is nowhere near the concern of missed rounds...hollowpoint or otherwise.

I agree...safety of bystanders is always a concern. But if you want to work the percentages, the margin to safety for bystanders is much more significantly increased by knowing what lies beyond your target, being more capable of putting more of your shots fired on target, and how quickly you are at getting the bad guy to stop what he's doing.
 
They shot more ammo than hits at a shoot out; so they went to the 10 mm.. Then, they realized a lot of their agents couldn't handle the 10 mm; so they went to the .40

The claim the FBI agents couldn't handle 10mm is a myth. The FBI never issued full power 10mm. In fact the FBI developed its reduced velocity 10mm load first. Then it chose the pistol months later - the S&W 1076. Then the pistol and reduced velocity ammo was issued to agents.

The FBI observed the terminal performance of .45 ACP 230gr ammo. FBI FTU SAIC John Hall realized a 10mm 180gr bullet had the same sectional density as the .45 ACP 230gr bullet and he was curious how a reduced velocity 10mm might perform if it was propelled about 100 fps faster than a .45 ACP 230gr bullet. The reduced velocity 10mm bullet performed slightly better and that's why the FBI chose this load.
 
The thread is about FBI handgun ammunition requirements and the way ammunition is tested, evaluated, and procured by the FBI.

We know that the FBI recently split a contract for 9mm duty ammunition among three suppliers.

It has been reported that an earlier contact for Speer Gold Dot ceased to be in force at one time, and reports have surfaced about a problem in earlier testing.

There is a list of "approved" ammunition published by Dr. Gary Roberts. One would assume that everything on it has passed the several performance requirement of the FBI testing protocols, but I haven't seen that documented. Perhaps someone can help here.

The list does include the new Gold Dot.

Discussions of ammunition and caliber in publications from the FBI Training Academy at Quantico refer to use by "agents and our law enforcement partners", and there are statements on the web that major law enforcement agencies generally select ammunition that has been tested by the FBI.

I have procured two kinds of 9mm ammunition for carry. One has been contracted for by the FBI, and one has not.

Both have been tested for reliability in my handgun model by a well known trainer. I have chosen to accept those results, rather than to fire several hundred rounds of premium ammunition myself.

The cartridge that I use that is not used by the FBI, and that is not on Dr. Roberts' "approved list", is Hornady Critical Defense. Unlike Hornady Critical Duty, which is on the list and which is used by the FBI, the Critical Defense round does not pass the tests that include metal and angled glass barriers.

It is advertised, however, to pass the light and heavy clothing tests reliably and with ease.

I consider it good enough for me--maybe better.

Should one want to choose among the rounds listed on the" approved list", I recommend ether performing sufficient reliability testing in one's firearm model, or relying on testing by someone credible.

That is more likely to cull out one that may not perform adequately in the gravest extreme than limited testing in homemade gel.
That makes perfect logical sense, and I've never thought about this before. Many people see ballistic data, and don't take into account that that data is contingent on the make up of the firearm the round was fired from and the barrel length the round was designed for.
 
I'm not really concerned about the issue with over penetration in handgun ammunition. I'm concerned about having sufficiently capable ammunition with which to make the bad guy stop whatever it is he's doing.

Over penetration of handgun ammunition, regardless of what it is, is nowhere near the concern of missed rounds...hollowpoint or otherwise.

I agree...safety of bystanders is always a concern. But if you want to work the percentages, the margin to safety for bystanders is much more significantly increased by knowing what lies beyond your target, being more capable of putting more of your shots fired on target, and how quickly you are at getting the bad guy to stop what he's doing.

You're right. This a lesson (emphasis above is mine) that NYPD learned the hard way when they issued 9mm 115-grain FMJs based on "humanitarian" grounds.
 
Last edited:
Many people see ballistic data, and don't take into account that that data is contingent on the make up of the firearm the round was fired from and the barrel length the round was designed for.
Good point!
 
1. How reliable is it?
2. How well do I shoot it?
3. What caliber is it?

Why do so many people insist on turning the order of those priorities on their head. Get the first two right and number three almost takes care of itself.
 
I looked at Ellifritz 10-Year Stopping Power Study and one thing really stood out.

88% Hits on Torso and Head.

We have a magic handgun caliber which can improve on the hit percentage of the .22 RF or a CF Rifle or Shotgun. What is this magic round? The .44 Remington Magnum.

Studies don't always prove what you think they do.
 
I looked at Ellifritz 10-Year Stopping Power Study and one thing really stood out.

88% Hits on Torso and Head.

We have a magic handgun caliber which can improve on the hit percentage of the .22 RF or a CF Rifle or Shotgun. What is this magic round? The .44 Remington Magnum.
This is an excellent example of why it's important to consider all the factors when trying to establish a cause and effect relationship.

The key factor in this case is that the .44Magnum isn't a duty issue round for any police department, nor is it a common self-defense caliber by any means. It's quite reasonable to expect that a person using a .44Mag for self-defense is not your average LEO or your average gun owner. For the same reason it's quite reasonable to expect that the skill level of such a person isn't average either.

In other words, this data point tells us far more about the skill of the shooter than it does about the caliber used.

Of course, the most important thing that the Ellifritz data set tells us is that there are factors other than caliber that are far more important in the outcome of shootings. How else could we explain the fact that the .38Spl, .380ACP, .32 and .22 shootings all resulted in a higher % of people incapacitated by a single shot to the torso or head than the .44Mag?
 
IMHO, gun forum and gun shop folks are over thinking and analyzing the whole caliber thing and always end up right back where they started... Seems like debate that was around before we got here and will still be going on long after we're gone.

1. How reliable is it?
2. How well do I shoot it?
3. What caliber is it?

Why do so many people insist on turning the order of those priorities on their head. Get the first two right and number three almost takes care of itself.

Agreed... As far as I'm concerned, there's no such thing as a magic handgun bullet or round that will stop a man in his tracks, and the overwhelming number of people shot with common handgun ammunition survive. What matters most is where the bullet hits. Just pick ammo that functions reliably and shoots accurately through your anecdotal example of a handgun, and be done with it.
 
Last edited:
This is an excellent example of why it's important to consider all the factors when trying to establish a cause and effect relationship.

The key factor in this case is that the .44Magnum isn't a duty issue round for any police department, nor is it a common self-defense caliber by any means. It's quite reasonable to expect that a person using a .44Mag for self-defense is not your average LEO or your average gun owner. For the same reason it's quite reasonable to expect that the skill level of such a person isn't average either.

In other words, this data point tells us far more about the skill of the shooter than it does about the caliber used.

Of course, the most important thing that the Ellifritz data set tells us is that there are factors other than caliber that are far more important in the outcome of shootings. How else could we explain the fact that the .38Spl, .380ACP, .32 and .22 shootings all resulted in a higher % of people incapacitated by a single shot to the torso or head than the .44Mag?

.25 Auto 49% and .45 Auto 51%.
9mm 47%.

9mm guys that can't handle the .45 can always trade up to the .25 <sarcasm>. I'm not really sure what to make out of studies like these. They don't correlate with what I see in hunting scenarios. You have to hit them in the right place to kill them but .338 Win Mag certainly seems more effective than .22 Hornet (time to incapacitation) despite similar velocities. So what am I to make of the .25 ACP vs .45 ACP scenario.
 
Seems like debate that was around before we got here and will still be going on long after we're gone.
Which, if you think about it a little bit is really good evidence that nobody can prove that one of the commonly used defensive calibers provides better real-world results than any of the others. Once someone could prove that, the debate would be over and we could start arguing about the virtues of stainless steel vs blued finishes or revolvers vs. autoloaders.
I'm not really sure what to make out of studies like these. They don't correlate with what I see in hunting scenarios.
That's because they aren't hunting scenarios. Hunting scenarios typically involve very carefully placed shots, but more importantly, they involve shooting things that have no concept of what it means to be shot. So they don't fall down and give up because they've been shot--they keep going until they can't keep going. Hunting is really all about terminal effect and virtually nothing else. And it's generally about calibers far more powerful than self-defense handgun cartridges.

When it comes to handgun self-defense, it's pretty obvious that raw terminal performance isn't nearly as much of a decision maker. For one thing, the common self-defense/LE issue calibers aren't that different in terms of raw terminal performance. But mostly it's that people tend to behave a certain way when shot, even if they're not badly hurt.
So what am I to make of the .25 ACP vs .45 ACP scenario.
It's very obvious what to make of it. The problem isn't that the data is confusing, it's that the data is saying something that many don't want to accept. Specifically, that terminal performance differences aren't a major factor in handgun self-defense.
 
.25 Auto 49% and .45 Auto 51%.
9mm 47%.

9mm guys that can't handle the .45 can always trade up to the .25 <sarcasm>. I'm not really sure what to make out of studies like these. They don't correlate with what I see in hunting scenarios. You have to hit them in the right place to kill them but .338 Win Mag certainly seems more effective than .22 Hornet (time to incapacitation) despite similar velocities. So what am I to make of the .25 ACP vs .45 ACP scenario.

Too many variables. Everything from bad guys’s mindset and intended target to exact shot placement. That study only confirms hand guns are similar to each other and that shotguns and rifles are more effective.
 
Last edited:
Check them out.

I've seen several of them before.

Seems more realistic to me that gel tests.

M

In what way?

The reason that I ask is that while 10% ordnance gelatin produces expansion and terminal penetration depth that correlates on a roughly 1:1 basis with human soft tissues, the test analogs (he refers to them as ''meat targets") being used by Mr. Harrell—oranges (to simulate pulmonary tissue) and ribs (to simulate the thoracic portion of a human torso) have no known correlation to the respective tissues and structures that they are supposedly meant to simulate.

Also, there seems to be a mistaken consensus that terminal penetration depth in properly prepared and validated 10% ordnance gelatin does not represent penetration depth in human bodies.

The linked document here—

http://ar15.com/ammo/project/fackler_articles/winchester_9mm.pdf

—might help in satisfying the issue of relative terminal penetration depth that is seen in human soft tissue and properly prepared 10% ordnance gelatin.

The first and second paragraphs on the third page of the linked article (see detail below) state that the Winchester 9mm 147-grain JHP produced closely matching expansion ratios in 10% ordnance gelatin and living human torsos (1.20 and 1.15, respectively) with average penetration depths of 13 inches occurring in both gelatin and living human torsos.

upload_2019-12-31_19-19-25.jpeg

Although the range of penetration depth varied more in the living human torsos than in 10% gelatin (12 - 14 inches in gelatin and 10 - 17 inches in human torsos), there is still an approximate 1:1 relationship that exists between penetration depths observed in both 10% gelatin and human soft tissue.
 
Last edited:
I've seen several of them before.



In what way?

The reason that I ask is that while 10% ordnance gelatin produces expansion and terminal penetration depth that correlates on a roughly 1:1 basis with human soft tissues, the test analogs (he refers to them as ''meat targets") being used by Mr. Harrell—oranges (to simulate pulmonary tissue) and ribs (to simulate the thoracic portion of a human torso) have no known correlation to the respective tissues and structures that they are supposedly meant to simulate.

Also, there seems to be a mistaken consensus that terminal penetration depth in properly prepared and validated 10% ordnance gelatin does not represent penetration depth in human bodies.

The linked document here—

http://ar15.com/ammo/project/fackler_articles/winchester_9mm.pdf

—might help in satisfying the issue of relative terminal penetration depth that is seen in human soft tissue and properly prepared 10% ordnance gelatin.

The first and second paragraphs on the third page of the linked article (see detail below) state that the Winchester 9mm 147-grain JHP produced closely matching expansion ratios in 10% ordnance gelatin and living human torsos (1.20 and 1.15, respectively) with average penetration depths of 13 inches occurring in both gelatin and living human torsos.

View attachment 881442

Although the range of penetration depth deviated more in the living human torsos than in 10% gelatin (12 - 14 inches in gelatin and 10 - 17 inches in human torsos), there is still an approximate 1:1 relationship that exists between penetration depths observed in both 10% gelatin and human soft tissue.

My understanding is it's a 1:1 correlation between gel and human muscle tissue. Various organ tissues, skin and bone may not have the same correlation. The much quoted reference that it takes several inches of gel penetration to equate to breaking human skin being an example. We also have rounds that penetrate 30"+ in gel yet fail to exit the body over 30% of the time. It would be nice if we could get some clarifications on how this relates to a 1:1 correlation between body and gel penetration.
 
.25 Auto 49% and .45 Auto 51%.
9mm 47%.

9mm guys that can't handle the .45 can always trade up to the .25 <sarcasm>. I'm not really sure what to make out of studies like these....

So where does that leave 9mm guys who can handle the. 45?

Here's the problem: so many people don't understand what statistics like this are telling them and, more importantly, what they're not.

I am willing to bet that a lot more people get shot with a 9mm than with a .45 ACP. Also, there is probably a whole order of magnitude more 9mm shootings than ones with .25 ACP.

If you get 9 questions correct on a 10 question test, you score 90%, which is an A. If you get 9 questions correct on a 100 question test, you score 9%. 51% short of even passing with a D.

There is a little book called How to Lie With Statistics that should be required reading for everyone:
https://www.amazon.com/How-Lie-Statistics-Darrell-Huff/dp/0393310728

I also suspect that a much higher percentage of the. 25 ACP shootings are close range head shots.
 
So where does that leave 9mm guys who can handle the. 45?

Here's the problem: so many people don't understand what statistics like this are telling them and, more importantly, what they're not.

I am willing to bet that a lot more people get shot with a 9mm than with a .45 ACP. Also, there is probably a whole order of magnitude more 9mm shootings than ones with .25 ACP.

If you get 9 questions correct on a 10 question test, you score 90%, which is an A. If you get 9 questions correct on a 100 question test, you score 9%. 51% short of even passing with a D.

There is a little book called How to Lie With Statistics that should be required reading for everyone:
https://www.amazon.com/How-Lie-Statistics-Darrell-Huff/dp/0393310728

I also suspect that a much higher percentage of the. 25 ACP shootings are close range head shots.
Think that was the point he was trying to sarcasticly make.
 
My understanding is it's a 1:1 correlation between gel and human muscle tissue. Various organ tissues, skin and bone may not have the same correlation.

Well since the bullets that were recovered for analysis (in the linked paper) after passing through living human torsos were made up of those same tissues (various organs, skin, and muscle tissue), does that not provide exactly the correlation that you are speaking of?

It would be nice if we could get some clarifications on how this relates to a 1:1 correlation between body and gel penetration.

Considering this—

index.php


—statement of fact taken from the linked research paper, that is exactly what we have before us—a 1:1 correlation between body and gel penetration!
 
I think the point is that this is exactly NOT the case. The statement reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation. The 9mm Luger has _always_ been more desirable to FBI than the 40 for reasons of shootability and firepower (perhaps among many others), but the ammo often or typically didn’t meet requirements. Now that it does, the organization has the flexibility to choose the always-was-more-desirable chambering.

Ranger SXT and Ranger T-Series came out in the 90s. Speer Gold Dot, 1995. Federal HST was introduced in 2002. Remington Golden Saber, 1991.

But the experts were still hawking the .40 well after that. For example, two posts from Doctor Roberts, the leading expert referenced in this thread. This post from the year 2000:


"The average officer is probably best served by a .40 caliber handgun, as it offers a reasonable compromise between adequate bullet performance, enhanced magazine capacity to compensate for a poor hit ratio, and good ergonomics for smaller statured officers.

With respect to your choices in 9mm, in our testing at the CHP Academy, the following average results were noted:

--Winchester 9 mm 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9SXTP) at 1224 f/s, 12.5" penetration, 0.65" expanded diameter.
--Winchester 9mm 147 gr JHP SXT Ranger (RA9T) at 983 f/s, 13.5" penetration, 0.61" expanded diameter.
--Federal 9mm 147 gr JHP Hydrashok (P9HS2) at 982 f/s, 12.7" penetration, 0.68" expanded diameter.

All of them offer acceptable terminal performance for law enforcement use."




Despite the 9mm passing the FBI requirements over a decade earlier, still this in the year 2011:


"However, for uniformed LE Patrol duty use, especially around vehicles, I prefer the .40 cartridge--15+1 offers a lot of bullets; 180 gr has enough mass for intermediate barrier penetration without as much deflection as 9mm and to ensure adequate penetration in tissue AFTER first defeating barriers. The M&P40 is the softest shooting, most controllable, and completely reliable .40 S&W pistol I have yet used; in addition, it is available with the manual safety that I prefer on a LE duty pistol. For those reasons, the M&P40 w/ambi-safety would be my pistol of choice for uniformed LE Patrol duty."


I don't believe the 9mm had any real change, it was suitable ages ago. I believe the FBI's and experts' opinions are what changed.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top