FBI Training Division Justifies 9mm Caliber Selection

[george burns]

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/09/26/fbi-training-division-justifies-9mm-caliber-selection/

Just about everything you want to know about pistol caliber effectiveness and selection.

 

[MAKster]

This is a 6 month old blog that has been discussed ad nauseam.

 

[george burns]

I didn't know, never saw it, or I would not have posted it, on second thought it is still interesting , and I am sure if I missed it so did others.

 

[DougW]

First time for me too.

 

[Sol]

You know what, shooting people is such a small part of law enforcement that I really don't care what LEOs or the FBI have to say about caliber effectiveness.

Furthermore, these agencies have access to almost every type small arm, so why do they carr about a pistol round.

In fact the FBI and locals raided a house across the street from my friends house the other day, he took a video and lo and behold, not a single pistol on their hands, all rifles.

 

[medic15al]

I have read somewhere that the FBI rejected their ammo that was delivered. The 147 grn G2 Gold-Dot by Speer.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Sounds more like they made a bunch of excuses.

1. Caliber debates have existed in law enforcement for decades

And so what?

2. Most of what is “common knowledge” with ammunition and its effects on the human target are rooted in myth and folklore

Folklore? So all the testing done by the FBI to adopt the 10mm was what, myth or folklore?

3. Projectiles are what ultimately wound our adversaries and the projectile needs to be the basis for the discussion on what “caliber” is best

Well the impact velocity might have SOMETHING to do with it to.

4. In all the major law enforcement calibers there exist projectiles which have a high likelihood of failing LEO’s in a shooting incident and there are projectiles which have a high ting incident likelihood of succeeding for LEO’s in a shooting incident

Oh, FMJ and hollowpoints, right? News to me!

5. Handgun stopping power is simply a myth

Strange. Lots of research from Thomson LaGuarde to today, all documented, and that's 'myth'?

6. The single most important factor in effectively wounding a human target is to have penetration to a scientifically valid depth (FBI uses 12” – 18”)

Oh, in that case FMJ should be the ticket, right?

7. LEO’s miss between 70 – 80 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident

And how does that matter? I guess they want to shoot more ammo at 'em to make up for the missing or do they want them to practice more? And note alot of LEOs do use the 9mm, so one suspects swapping calibers may not change that.

8. Contemporary projectiles (since 2007) have dramatically increased the terminal effectiveness of many premium line law enforcement projectiles (emphasis on the 9mm Luger offerings)

Hmm, are they saying hollow points, which expand thus acting like a larger diameter bullet, somehow increase 'dramatically' the 'myth' of stopping power so it's not a myth? I thought penetration was the main ingredient?

9. 9mm Luger now offers select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, I outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI

Ooookkkk. So 'select' 9mm projectiles outperform 'most' (but not all) premium line.40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles? So that means SOME .40 and .45 projectiles outperform all 9mm projectiles, right?

10. 9mm Luger offers higher magazine capacities, less recoil, lower cost (both in ammunition and wear on the weapons) and higher functional reliability rates (in FBI weapons)

Ah... Not sure about 'functional reliability' but spray-n-pray and cost are the two factors they feel are most desirable! Now we get to the truth of what they are saying!

11. The majority of FBI shooters are both FASTER in shot strings fired and more ACCURATE with shooting a 9mm Luger vs shooting a .40 S&W (similar sized weapons)

Shazam! Who knew! I am sure the majority of FBI shooters shoot faster shot strings and are more accurate with a .22 also.

12. There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto

Whoa.. in #9 you implied there was a difference. Now define 'little'. You are telling us there IS some difference in wound tracks between them and the .40 and .45 have larger tracks?

13. Given contemporary bullet construction, LEO’s can field (with proper bullet selection) 9mm Lugers with all of the terminal performance potential of any other law enforcement pistol caliber with none of the disadvantages present with the “larger” calibers

Sure buddy! Dream on!

And folks, I pack a 9mm Glock 26 daily. I certainly am not an anti-9mm guy.

But face it, they picked the 9mm cause it is:

1. easier to shoot.
2. holds more ammo.
3. ammo is cheaper.
4. guns last longer.
5. and it's reasonably effective.

Ok, that is logical and understandable.

But bureaucrats, don't give us a märchen (fairy tale) 'the 9mm is just as good a stopper as the others'.

Deaf

 

[zorro45]

They picked 9mm because it is easier to train a demographically diverse trainee pool to shoot it in the time available for this task.

 

[jamesinalaska]

Thank you

for posting the article with the link.

 

[joneb]

My brother was in the FBI, and he was a firearms instructor. He was quite happy with the Glock 23. Personally I have nothing against the 40S&W, I just don't care for Glocks, at least the two I've owned.

 

[wally]

9mm is the new .22lr!

 

[RustyShackelford]

9x19mm ....

The 9x19mm or 9mmNATO isn't bad but it's not great.

RS

 

[Spade5]

Thanks for posting

I guess I missed this when is was originally posted. It looks like it covers all the bases.

I actually prefer 357 but I understand that revolvers are old school and don't have the capacity. I doubt I will ever be in a gun fight so I am not too concerned about capacity or rapid reload.

With that being said, I also carry a 9mm XDS that doesn't have but one more round than the revolver. I shoot it better than I do the revolver in double action but the revolver comes out on top when firing single action.

I think it goes back to carry what you feel comfortable with and can shoot well.

I was in the infantry in Vietnam so I guess it is safe to say I have been in a few gun fights. I would just as soon prefer to never be in another one. Having a rifle in your hands with plenty of ammunition didn't guarantee that you would come out on top. Of course some of you will say that is because the 5.56 is inferior to the AK round.

Shoot what you want. It matters not to me.

 

[herrwalther]

As Deaf pointed out, there are plenty of contradictions in that blog about why the FBI made the switch. Some of the reasoning is fairly hogwash in my opinion. For example the easier to train. The chances of a lone FBI agent or two getting in an extended firefight with a suspect without local police responding is rare. I believe the FBI places as much importance on pistol excellence as the military does, read as not much.

They do make some valid points however in the blog. Yes 9mm has less recoil, more capacity of the common service cartridges. 9mm has seen far more of the advancements in bullet and powder tech in the last handful of years to approach the performance of larger calibers.

I still believe the biggest reason for the switch is cost. Any government agency is going to have their deisgnated bean counters and paper pushers. I am sure they calculated the cost of buying X amount of ammo in 9mm vs .40S&W or 10mm and found the 9mm cheaper. Cheap enough to even offset the cost of new pistols for the entire FBI, minus a few special task groups.

 

[NoVA Shooter]

Sounds more like they made a bunch of excuses.

No, they just eliminated factors they perceived as un-measurable or irrelevant to their decision. You may have different criteria, tests, and priorities and I'm sure they work for you, but in this case, you aren't going to be helping with the decision to select a caliber for the FBI.

7. LEO’s miss between 70 – 80 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident

And how does that matter? I guess they want to shoot more ammo at 'em to make up for the missing or do they want them to practice more? And note alot of LEOs do use the 9mm, so one suspects swapping calibers may not change that.

That's the whole point of #7. Changing caliber won't change the hit/miss percentage. Because of that, why not implement a round that mitigates this; i.e. the 9mm which has higher capacity (to mitigate the lost rounds due to a missed shot) and a lower cost (to mitigate training costs).

9. 9mm Luger now offers select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, I outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI

Ooookkkk. So 'select' 9mm projectiles outperform 'most' (but not all) premium line.40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles? So that means SOME .40 and .45 projectiles outperform all 9mm projectiles, right?

You keep taking each point out of context. #9 is one of many factors used to reach their conclusion. If this was the only factor, it would make no sense to choose the 9mm but if you can get a 9mm that performs at a high level (comparable to many top .40 and .45), plus having other metrics better than those, why not?

10. 9mm Luger offers higher magazine capacities, less recoil, lower cost (both in ammunition and wear on the weapons) and higher functional reliability rates (in FBI weapons)(in FBI weapons)

Ah... Not sure about 'functional reliability' but spray-n-pray and cost are the two factors they feel are most desirable! Now we get to the truth of what they are saying!

This is a strawman argument. For one, you dismissed higher functional reliability rates and less recoil. Second, cost is ALWAYS desirable. With you, with me, with the government. Let's not forget that the FBI uses millions of rounds a year in training. I think a million dollars in savings a year is a good thing if they can get the same performance.
Third, extrapolating spray-n-pray from higher magazine capacity and the fact that, in a shooting indecent, there's a 70-80 percent miss rate (which is comparable to civilian shooting incidents) is intellectually dishonest. Let me ask you, do you also think that everyone else who carries a high capacity magazine and/or extra magazine believes that spray-n-pray is a desirable factor? Having more ammo is desirable because of the reality of shooting incidents, not because spray-n-pray is the way to go.

11. The majority of FBI shooters are both FASTER in shot strings fired and more ACCURATE with shooting a 9mm Luger vs shooting a .40 S&W (similar sized weapons)

Shazam! Who knew! I am sure the majority of FBI shooters shoot faster shot strings and are more accurate with a .22 also.

But they aren't looking at the .22. The .22 has been eliminated as a potential carry round due to many known factors and therefore needs not be re-tested.

12. There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto

Whoa.. in #9 you implied there was a difference. Now define 'little'. You are telling us there IS some difference in wound tracks between them and the .40 and .45 have larger tracks?

#9 and #12 are talking about two different things. 9 was about shooting performance and 12 is about wound tracks. A BMW vastly outperforms a Honda Accord in handling and comfort, however there is little difference in MPG. Is this a contradiction? No, it simply says that for the same MPG, the BMW is a better car. In this case, the report is saying for little to no difference in wound track, you get a better performing caliber in the 9mm.

But bureaucrats, don't give us a märchen (fairy tale) 'the 9mm is just as good a stopper as the others'.

Well, unless I missed it, they didn't.

What I got from the article was that stopping power is not something you can base a decision on and that the 9mm is the better choice based on measurable metrics/factors (the FBI measurable metrics/factors).

Now, I'm not saying I agree with everything they say or their conclusions, but this is where their analysis has taken them.

 

[Malamute]

^ ^ ^ Good post NoVA Shooter.

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

FBI spent millions to determine what a lot of you already knew. They have changed their carry weapons more times in the past 5 decades than any other agency.

 

[sauer1911]

Too bad they didnt think to stand on the other end of the weapon. As far as Pistols go, they all are pretty intimidating when looking down the barrel as opposed to being behind the barrel.

.22lr, .22wmr, .380, 9mm, 357sig, .40, .45 ALL can fah-kockta you up, if your being shot at.

Yeah alot of money wasted in changing guns.

be safe

 

[Manny]

Thanks for posting, I'd missed that study totally. I made my move to 9mm several years back for budgetary reasons, then discovered how much I liked the smaller platform and lighter recoil. I knew that the the improved ammo has been dimminishing the advantage other calibers had over the 9mm, it's nice to see this quantified in the FBI study.

 

[Malamute]

Some good work in wound ballistics research has been done by Dr Martin Fackler and Dr Gary K Roberts. The FBI studies are one of several good, up to date resources.

 

[Balrog]

I think the FBI blog comments are spot on. I decided a long time ago I would stick with 9mm only for self defense because I had drawn basically the same conclusions.

 

[DeepSouth]

I can't think of much of anything the Government, or the FBI has done or gotten right in the last 2 decades, they can keep their opinions, on everything.

Everyone knows carrying a pistol is a compromise, even for LEO.
Given personal preferences ANY caliber can be the "right" one, the entire argument has become silly, carry what you want, or in the case of some LEO, what your told.

 

[Theohazard]

NoVA Shooter's post #15 is spot-on.

 

[fanchisimo]

The only guaranteed one shot stopper.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Some good work in wound ballistics research has been done by Dr Martin Fackler and Dr Gary K Roberts. The FBI studies are one of several good, up to date resources.

Actually several other sources of good work since 1904.

And their conclusions:

Bigger bullets tend to stop better, faster bullets tend to stop better, bullets such as hollow points tend to stop better, and proper shot placement tends to stop better.

It's still clout .vs. control .vs. portability.

From the Thompson–LaGarde test to David Spaulings video observations of shootings one still finds there is such a thing as stopping power.

It's not total, not 100 percent, but some cartridges, loaded with specific ammo, tend to stop better than others.

As for the FBI, they are just justifying the 9mm due to cost and ease of training.

Deaf