jerkface11
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If you find yourself in a situation where a 9mm isn't enough would you trade it for a .45 or a rifle?
FBI Training Division Justifies 9mm Caliber Selection
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R.W.Dale
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Back in the 80's and 90's there was wild disparities betwixt the effectiveness of mainstream service pistol rounds. So much so the the third leg (40 s&w) of the "big 3" triumvirate was spawned.
But then something happened in the early aughties. Bullets got good, really really GOOD. So good that by in large the playing field was leveled between 9-40-45
Yes I said LEVELED
So why doesn't the disparity of effectiveness still exist just farther down the scale with the larger rounds? Simple really, a prospective target can only get so stopped or dead.
But then something happened in the early aughties. Bullets got good, really really GOOD. So good that by in large the playing field was leveled between 9-40-45
Yes I said LEVELED
So why doesn't the disparity of effectiveness still exist just farther down the scale with the larger rounds? Simple really, a prospective target can only get so stopped or dead.
Deaf Smith
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Neither. I'd trade for a shotgun since by definition we are talking about handgun ranges.
Deaf
RustyShackelford
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300 years ....
A printed gun magazine a few years ago did a article where they brought up a in depth study of sworn LE officers in the NYPD.
The research project stated a NYPD officer would need to work approx 300 years,
before they would get into a documented lethal force event.
A female NYPD homicide detective(1st grade) with nearly 30 years of continuous duty on the job, said she never had to draw her sidearm on duty(in a lethal force event).
Many sworn LE agencies are converting back to 9x19mm because it's cheaper, easier to train all levels & types of sworn personnel, and the 9x19mm feeds-cycles well in most modern semi automatic duty pistols(M&Ps, Glocks, SIGs, etc).
I've posted on the forum a few times how my city's metro PD has used the 9mm, SIG Sauer P226/P229 since about 1990. $ and new training were the police reasons why they never changed. The law enforcement union did push for and get the ability for sworn police officers to carry .40 or .357sig SIGs if they could qualify(and purchase their own sidearms).
A printed gun magazine a few years ago did a article where they brought up a in depth study of sworn LE officers in the NYPD.
The research project stated a NYPD officer would need to work approx 300 years,
before they would get into a documented lethal force event. A female NYPD homicide detective(1st grade) with nearly 30 years of continuous duty on the job, said she never had to draw her sidearm on duty(in a lethal force event).
Many sworn LE agencies are converting back to 9x19mm because it's cheaper, easier to train all levels & types of sworn personnel, and the 9x19mm feeds-cycles well in most modern semi automatic duty pistols(M&Ps, Glocks, SIGs, etc).
I've posted on the forum a few times how my city's metro PD has used the 9mm, SIG Sauer P226/P229 since about 1990. $ and new training were the police reasons why they never changed. The law enforcement union did push for and get the ability for sworn police officers to carry .40 or .357sig SIGs if they could qualify(and purchase their own sidearms).
NoVA Shooter
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Risk analysis. The odds that an LEO will ever need their firearm is so small that the risk of a negative result due to not having a 'more powerful' caliber (if there is such a thing) is so negligible as to not outweigh the cost/capacity benefit of having a 'less powerful' caliber.
Again, not saying 9mm is or is not the way to go.
herrwalther
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RustyShackelford said:
The politics in NY LEO are on a long standing kick of "nothing bad happens here" with a healthy dose of "violence is going down everyday in NYC." Thanks to former Mayor Bloomburg. Before being a nurse in the Navy, a friend of mine worked as an EMT in Queens. She had about 4 calls a day to gunshot victims. Besides a HOMICIDE detective is a poor example, as the cases they investigate is when someone is already dead. A friend of mine is a police officer in a city which ranks in the top 10 most violent. He averages pulling his duty firearm ONCE A MONTH.
Sheepdog1968
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Back in the early 1990s my car was broke down on and a police officer was kind enough to stop, radio for a tow truck, and keep my company/wave traffic around me on a not very busy busy road. I sat there and chatted with and noted he had a. 45. He said "bigger bullets make bigger holes?" That always stuck with me. Any round can fail and any round can work. Skill with your particular weapon platform is much more important than than the actual caliber n
Deaf Smith
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Well yes, but inside the skill factor it does matter.
That is, all other things being equal, the size does matter, as well as velocity and type of bullet used.
If you can handle a .45, great use it, it gives you a bit of an edge. If you can only handle a 9mm, use it, cause if you can't handle a more powerful round it will actually degrade your ability to defend yourself.
Use the most powerful weapon you can control, carry, and conceal (if need be.)
Deaf
RustyShackelford
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Post #31 ...
I think post #31 pretty much covered it, .
I don't need to answer or add anything else.
I think post #31 pretty much covered it,
.I don't need to answer or add anything else.
herrwalther
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NoVA Shooter said:
Really? What do you think is a more likely occurrence? A police officer being involved in a shooting or a private citizen? Let us assume for a moment that there are equal number of armed private citizens to police officers, LEOS would still get into more armed encounters because we, as private individuals, tend to avoid situations where gun fire might erupt. Law enforcement do (or at least should not) not have the same luxury as their occupation puts them in dangerous situations.
Deaf Smith
Member
Amen.I have always found it very amusing how so many people place any value on what the FBI (or any other L.E. group) chooses for weapons.
They are all over the map as for what they adopt... EXCEPT they never go below 9mm and .38 Spl.
You don't see any of them going European and getting a .32.
Deaf
Yeah, hilarious! Its not like they made as much of an up to date scientific study of it as they could, and used experience with various guns, loads, and agents as additional information.
Some other LE agancies use practical experience and up to date information in their decision making also, instead of "Old so-and-so says this is the hot ticket, he knows, his uncle was in a gunfight 40 years ago, he knows whats what. If it worked 40 years ago, there couldnt be anything better today" or "This is the newest whiz bang unit, all the shooting 'experts' in the magazines say so".
One agency is so out of whack with reality that they have been averaging 4 shots per incident with near 100% hits. If they didnt use that whimpy caliber, they could no doubt have it done in 1 shot.
Heh!
...with extensive wounding effectiveness analysis, terminal ballistics testing, and observations of shooter performance, all optimized to face the same species of human criminals that one would encounter in self defense.
Deaf Smith
Member
Not like they could have taken the police reports from around the nation specifying distance number of shots, ammo used, shot placement, autopsies, etc.. and found out exactly what works on the street in real life and not some formula like 'global warming' either.
They did that... didn't they? No?
Deaf
They did that... didn't they? No?
Deaf
Old Dog
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Uh, thought the discussion was about caliber, not the actual handgun.
As far as the weapons, we know it's all about the beancounters and the best deal budget-wise for each agency, and compromise systems for the lowest common denominator of officer ... But there is a lot of research that goes into the actual caliber, the bullet technology and the loadings ... Pretty sure I'm not alone in going with stuff that's been working well for law enforcement over the years.
Its my understanding that those kinds of things factor in in the overall wounds ballistics studies that have been ongoing. Not just with the FBI but in the field of wounds ballistics study. Whats been seen as a result of continued studies is that the modern test mediums compare very favorably with real life encounters overall (what works in the modern test medium is also what is working on the street), though the variations in actual shootings of bones, angles, what parts of the body etc, as well as varying degrees of efficiency and throughness on the part of different investigators has some bearing on the end results. Meaning not every shot will give X penetration, etc. The baselines have been established on what works the majority of the time.
It isnt voodo, and it isnt junk science, like the old "street stoppers" info many relied on in years past, which has since been soundly discredited as a work of fiction.
Theohazard
Member
How? There's no evidence that a .45 gives you any measurable edge over a 9mm when it comes to the actual outcome of a gunfight. Pick which caliber you like best (I like both), but don't delude yourself into thinking that a slightly bigger bullet will translate to a measurable real-world difference in effectiveness.Deaf Smith said:
Theohazard
Member
You honestly believe that 93% of climate scientists have come to their conclusions based solely on a formula? Climate change is exhaustively studied and it's a settled science; there's no real controversy among scientists who study the issue. The only controversy is in the details. But terminal ballistics isn't anywhere near as studied; there's nowhere close to the amount of good studies on the subject. However, of the studies that have been done, there doesn't seem to be a measurable difference in the real-world effectiveness between 9mm, .40, and .45. So pick whichever caliber you shoot best.Deaf Smith said:
guyfromohio
Member
To stop a target, one must create as many leaking holes as it takes. 9mm affords the shooter the best mix between terminal ballistics and follow-up shoot-ability. I certainly would not feel under-gunned with a .45, but I see the value of a 9mm. A recent class that I took trained us to take 4-6 shot bursts from draw before going back to ready position.
RustyShackelford
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post 45, off topic ....
How does post 45 relate to the topic?
This topic is bouncing all over the place.
If you think someone's choice or reasons are junk science or wrong, so be it.
But if they choose to buy a certain caliber or brand, that's their choice.
These "I'm smart, your stupid." posts don't seem very High Roady,
.
How does post 45 relate to the topic?
This topic is bouncing all over the place.
If you think someone's choice or reasons are junk science or wrong, so be it.
But if they choose to buy a certain caliber or brand, that's their choice.
These "I'm smart, your stupid." posts don't seem very High Roady,
.Posted by NoVA Shooter:
When an officer actually needs his or her weapon, how likely the occurrence of that event may have been has become completely irrelevant.
Think risk management. Do you elect to mitigate the risk? If so, the question becomes what mitigation approach is best.
When an officer actually needs his or her weapon, how likely the occurrence of that event may have been has become completely irrelevant.
Deaf Smith
Member
Strange.. if the studies of actual shootings have been done by the 'authorities' why are they not published? One would think verification of their formulas would be part of the peer review process.
What? No peer review? No publishing of their data, methods, and analysis like in science journals?
Ah, yes, the science is settled!
Don't make me laugh gang, the FBI used that same science to pick the 10mm and later the .40 S&W.
They juggle their stats to fit their conclusions.
And their conclusion was the needed to cut cost.
Deaf
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