Fear vs. Law

[eric.cartman]

This story got me thinking: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=349286

SO a guy takes a walk. Two thugs ask for money, he refuses, walks away, and takes a bullet in the back.

At what point can you draw your weapon???
Clearly, two guys approaching me and asking for money does not constitute "being in fear of life or great bodily harm". But lately we see how that ends. So say this happens: I'm walking down the street walking my dog. I see two doods approaching me. They get close and ask me for money: "Sup man, yo, give me five bucks." Crap! After reading stories like that, I would say "Sure, let me..." and here comes out my gun instead of wallet, followed by me screaming "Stay the F* away!!!".

But many of us would say that I overreacted.

Of course it all depends on the vibe I get. Then again, "normal" people don't do things like that. No matter how badly I needed money, I've never asked strangers. Also, you can tell a homeless dood from a gang banger, duh. So assume it's a thug looking guy(s), not an obvious homeless person.

The longer I CCW, the less I care about the law. The more I read about the crap going on in our cities, the less I worry about legal consequences of my actions. I no longer care if I can see a weapon. I no longer care if they are innocent or not. I feel something isn't right, I'm pulling out my gun. Some may accuse me of unnecessarily escalating the situation. But S**T, guy in the story said no and walked away... now he's fighting for his life.

What say you?

 

[Sans Authoritas]

Eric,

It's patently unwise to turn your back on two people who are acting strangely (and in most circumstances, two people asking for money from a stranger is acting strangely. Unless they're dressed in friar's robes.)

Quite frequently, the question "You got a cigarette?" quickly transforms into a blow to the head or a bullet in the thoracic cavity. It's a comment made to take you off guard, to get you to put one of your hands into your pocket, and render you incapable of a rapid response. The proper response to such a question is the true statement, "I don't smoke," while keeping a close eye on what intent the person is signalling.

Or, alternately, if the question is money, simply say, "No," or "I haven't got a dime." Even if you have a wallet full of 20's, you can still be telling the truth.

The old Karate Kid line still holds true: "Never lower your eyes to an enemy." This holds true even for a potential enemy.

Sometimes, badstuff can't be avoided. Usually, it can. Better to back away from shady people and look like a fool than to walk away with your back turned and look like an easy target.

-Sans Authoritas

 

[HK G3]

I think the key is just to be completely aware of your situation.

If someone comes up to you asking for money, and you refuse, you need to keep an eye on them, and ensure that they are in fact leaving you alone, and that the guy asking for money isn't just part of a group that's intended to divert your attention while his buddies whack you over the back of the head with something.

Knowing your surroundings, and gaging others' demeanor is key. Whipping out a gun every time a stranger approaches you is just a bad idea, and could lead to your CWP being revoked, so when a situation in the future arises where you really need it, you won't have it.

 

[Acolyte]

> Clearly, two guys approaching me and asking for money does not constitute "being in fear of life or great bodily harm".

To me, that is not "Clearly" --- I think one could easily articulate fear for your life or harm in that situation: 2 against 1 so being outnumbered is already a threat, body language and related demeanor can be threatening, where are you? the food court of a mall, alley, etc. Time of day, # of people around, were you caught by surprise, can you see their hands, what is their proximity to you?, do they stay together or does one flank you, is their a 3rd behind you, and so on and so forth.

 

[JoeSlomo]

"At what point can you draw your weapon?"

Check your state laws for the exact wording used regarding self defense.

Bottom line: your life is worth more than court costs.

 

[rrruuunnn]

even if you see a gun, you should not take your eyes off the bg when you are running away. if possible take cover and return fire. but do not take eyes of subject unless looking for other bg.

 

[meef]

even if you see a gun, you should not take your eyes off the bg when you are running away.

Damn officer. There I was running away from this bg like there was no tomorrow, had my eyes squarely on him when.....

CRASH!

I ran smack dab into a freaking telephone pole.

Man, that hurt!

Guess I should have watched where I was running.

 

[mekender]

Quite frequently, the question "You got a cigarette?" quickly transforms into a blow to the head or a bullet in the thoracic cavity. It's a comment made to take you off guard, to get you to put one of your hands into your pocket, and render you incapable of a rapid response. The proper response to such a question is the true statement, "I don't smoke," while keeping a close eye on what intent the person is signalling.

i usually tell em i dont smoke while im smoking.... for some reason they dont believe me

 

[rrruuunnn]

i read this in a book. you shouldn't turn you back on a bad guy. i've read a few books, so i can't remember which one. you lose track of where and what the bad guy is doing. of course, you have to look back and forth. if you are familiar with the area, you may even run backwards or at a 45 degree angle. you should try not to run perpendicular.

 

[rainbowbob]

i usually tell em i dont smoke while im smoking.... for some reason they dont believe me

How about...

"Really sorry...it's my last one."

"Sorry, man - I'm flat broke."

Even better? Visual sweep for accomplices (and telephone poles), hand on the pocket pistol, play "deaf", and keep moving.

 

[RP88]

you'd only have to worry about consequences if there are witnesses, and chances are that, if there are any, they will give supporting testimonies that you were possibly in danger (assuming you're a person of good character and acted in some kind of defensive manner). Probably won't be in trouble unless you shoot or go crazy.

When I venture to Richmond, I take a switchblade with me. Always. If someone is bothering me, I keep walking while keeping an eye over my shoulder. If they look saddened and you can tell that he's far behind you, then good. If he's following you, trying to match your pace, or trying to keep you from leaving by standing in front of you or trying to be persuasive, then assume he's looking for trouble. I only had one guy give me trouble and make me uncomfortable, and that was the first time I went up there (and without a knife). Ever since then, not a problem at all.

 

[BullfrogKen]

eric.cartman said: The longer I CCW, the less I care about the law. The more I read about the crap going on in our cities, the less I worry about legal consequences of my actions. I no longer care if I can see a weapon. I no longer care if they are innocent or not. I feel something isn't right, I'm pulling out my gun. . . .


What say you?

I say if you act on that attitude, one of these days its going to catch up with you. It'll mean a lot more than losing the permit. It'll mean prison.


What you're asking has been asked here before. This is an interview. You need to develop your social skills to both gain more information about their intentions and communicate your ability to resist. By gaining more information, you can articulate your actions if you decide to escalate. By learning effective communication, you may not have to escalate. Rather than repost my thought on the matter, I'll link to them.

I was in an 'interview' last night


Verbal commands . . .



Can I ask how long have you have been walking about society armed?

.

 

[eric.cartman]

Can I ask how long have you have been walking about society armed?

No thanks man. I can see where this is going.
I'm not some paranoid trigger happy guy. Don't get the wrong idea.

About a year ago my wife and I were approached by two sketchy looking guys. It was on an empty Publix parking lot. I could see clearly what was going on, and I put my shopping cart between us and them. I also put my hand on my gun in a way they couldn't see. No words were spoken except one of them saying "What's up".

My point is, we are at a disadvantage against criminals. And to often it is already to late to react.

 

[rhubarb]

I've always had a preference for the offhand up and a firm "Stop right there" before anyone approaching me in a situation like this gets within even 20 feet.

However, reading Ken's post from the 'interview' thread, I think I have a new response to beggars, bums, and potential muggers: a smiling "I'm yer huckleberry."

 

[Robert Hairless]

The longer I CCW, the less I care about the law. The more I read about the crap going on in our cities, the less I worry about legal consequences of my actions. I no longer care if I can see a weapon. I no longer care if they are innocent or not. I feel something isn't right, I'm pulling out my gun. Some may accuse me of unnecessarily escalating the situation. But S**T, guy in the story said no and walked away... now he's fighting for his life.

What say you?

You asked: I say that you're trouble looking for a place to happen. Reread what you wrote. It's indeed the statement of "some paranoid trigger happy guy." You no longer care about the law or the legal consequences of your actions. You don't even care if you pull a gun on someone who is innocent.

 

[AechKay]

Id say an easier method than drawing your gun right off the bat is to devalue yourself. Something I like to do when traveling through bad neighborhoods is take of my watch and valuables and stick them in my pockets and anyone I see outwardly approaching me, approach them first and ask them for a few bucks. It works.

 

[FourNineFoxtrot]

Lots of variables here. I can't CCW, so I can't say exactly how I'd react. Generally, though, the plan is going to involve running first, and fighting only if I can't run. It's a lot harder to kill a man who's hell-bent on rabbiting, than a man who's standing his ground (certain historical exceptions notwithstanding).

I'm not afraid to run from a panhandler or some guy loitering, if I don't like the situation. I'm not defending anything, I'm not holding the ground. I have no stake in a fight, and standing my ground with a mugger is not my idea of "courage". I'm the ambushed party, and as such, my primary obligation is to escape alive. As with any ambush, I would have to assume that anyone trying to rob me has prepared enough force to overwhelm me, and is employing tactics that they have had time to prepare. Running is the only sane thing to do; fighting puts you at a disadvantage, at best.

Edit: As far as the OP's story about the guy who got shot in the back... I don't know. I don't think I would have bothered saying "No", and I don't think I would have "walked" away. If two guys start approaching me, I'll bolt. Not a word, not a sound, not a warning. I don't care if I get strange looks, or seem paranoid. I'm alone, it's nighttime (presumably), and I don't know these guys. I'm not above running, even from a situation that I only suspect is developing. Maybe it's two guys just out for a walk, and they laugh their asses off afterward. Fine by me. As long as I'm still alive, it's well worth it.

Edit to the Edit: That kinda sounded like I'd run from any random person who shared a sidewalk with me. I meant to say that if I thought the guys were approaching me, specifically, I'd bolt. I need at least some evidence that something's going on.