Dealing with non-continuing assaults

[DickP]

Hey all:

I recently saw a reality-clip show in which a man and woman are walking down a sidewalk. They approach two young toughs and, as the couple pass by, one of two thugs turns, slaps the woman across the face, hard, and immediately turns back to continue his conversation with Thug#2. The woman's companion immediately responds by beating the living hell out of both of the thugs (which I guess was supposed to be the humorous aspect of the clip).

Anyway, it got me to thinking:

How on earth would I respond in a similar situation, if I were the husband? I certainly shouldn’t draw a firearm - the assault is not continuing; Thug#1 has already turned away and is clearly willing to let me and my freshly bruised wife walk away. To draw a firearm in that situation strikes me as clear vigilantism. I mean, even if I "only" brandish the gun, I have to believe that I'm gonna be in a hell of a lot of trouble. If my brandishing escalates the situation and someone gets killed, I will be responsible.

So should I instead get on my cell phone and call the cops? Okay, so now I've got a dispatcher in one ear, asking me which cheek got slapped, and two jeering thugs in the other. Hopefully I can communicate my exact location to the dispatcher. In the 20 minutes (hopefully) that it will take the cops to arrive, what do my wife and I do? When the thugs wander off, laughing, and head down a dark alley, do I follow them? If so, does my wife accompany me? If not, where does she go? Do I just let them go? I don't see any other option available other than to just let them saunter off.

The scenario above got me to thinking about other scenarios in which an extreme and outrageous physical assault is immediately followed by clear disengagement by the attacker. At that point, I don't see how the assaulted party can respond at all. To do anything other than walk away – to do anything that reengages interaction - strikes me as a willful escalation.

Would anyone care to share any thoughts on this? The burdens and responsibilities of concealed carry seem awesome – it seems to require a Christ-like ability to turn the other cheek, no matter what outrages and indignities are poured on you and yours. Someone spits in your wife’s face? Tough. You gave up the luxury of being free to sock A-holes in the mouth with (relatively) limited liability when you sought out the right to carry.

Any personal stories of indignities endured would be welcome, though I realize that this is venturing into personal and painful territory... Specifically, I’d love to hear some stories of how people successfully dealt with outrageous offenses while carrying, what their decision making and coping strategies were, and how they’ve subsequently dealt with their anger over the situation…

Thanks!

 

[MisterMike]

First, I'd speculate that what you describe is pretty rare: A serious assault followed by clear disengagement. Honestly, I'd be inclined to conclude that if someone did that sort of thing to someone I was with, they would be as likely as not to circle around and continue or escalate the attack.

One thing is clear, however, if it's clearly a smack and run situation, in most states you would not have the right to use deadly force to effect their arrest or stop their flight.

 

[skipjackrc4]

I've actually seen that video (and was quite impressed by husband/boy friend). I would agree that a gun is not appropriate in this situation. Honestly, I would have done exactly what he did (if only I could).

I think there is a difference between being spit on and being hit. The slap I would consider assault. That said, I don't know how to handle either necessarily.

If someone does what the thugs in that video did, they deserve to have "the living hell" beat out of them. Legally, though, I don't know. It's not directly self-defense, though you could claim (quite validly) that you were afraid for a repeated attack and felt threatened.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

I'm pretty sure I've seen the video you are talking about. If it's the one I'm thinking of, the guy who hit the girl actually did it on accident. It turns out he wasn't even aware he hit her in passing.

Either way, if both of those guys had any fight in them at all, that would have turned out really bad for the boyfriend. Yeah, he could obviously fight better than most folks, but a 2 on 1 fight is really bad odds. The immediacy and ferocity of his reaction carried the day for him.

If I did that, it would be my luck that the two guys would be fighters. Then I'd have the choice of either getting pommeled into the ground by two huge guys, or drawing. Having to shoot a guy after you escalated the fight would be very very bad legal juju. Even though you were facing overwhelming force (2 on 1), you escalated it.

If I were to do that, I would have it solidly in my head that I very well might get a serious beating by two men, and that since I technically escalated it that I couldn't use my pistol legally after that point.

 

[Rail Driver]

An attack like that doesn't really justify drawing a pistol.

We could play "what if" all day with this one, "what if my wife is pregnant, what if he's armed" and so on with many different circumstances that could change the appropriate response.

In my opinion, as far as the law is concerned, there is no duty to retreat (in my state) and you can bet that the thug wouldn't have time to turn back to his buddy if he had the nerve to put his hands on my significant other because I would be intervening with great violence of action in defense of her. If he escalated it beyond an unarmed encounter, or his buddy jumped in and introduced a disparity of force, I would escalate my defensive tactics as appropriate in my mind at the time, based on the situation as it presents itself.

 

[ONLY]

That’s a very good situation for pepper spray. If it is legal in your state.

 

[EmbarkChief]

I've seen the vid, IMOP it looked like the guy hit her on accident.

 

[Sky]

I flew with a guy who was closing up his moms house after she passed away. He was tired and decided he would walk down the street to the local restaurant for a bite to eat. He was approximately one block from moms house and walked by 5 teens approx 17 years of age.

He really did not think anything about it as he was in his mid 30s and in good shape; he was blind sided by one of the punks as they passed. He tried to fight all five and ended up on the losing end of the stick.

In his flight bag he carried his x-rays of his jaw and pins, screws and wire used to hold it together. It has been several years since I have seen or spoke with him but I suppose he was lucky he was not armed..They would have used his own gun on him. I think they got a few years on probation.

 

[DickP]

Huh.

I just looked up that clip on the internets, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMx9ThXNxvU&has_verified=1), and yeah, the show I originally saw that clip on omitted the part where the two guys are tussling and stumbling around prior to the girl getting hit.

Reconsidering the part where the guy turns and whacks her in the chops, yeah, it's not properly a "slap," and it looks like it might easily have been an accident. What made me assume it was deliberate was the guy's total nonchalance after he whacks her - but it looks like those dudes might well have been drunk - maybe the guy was just uncomprehending in the second or so between when he hit her and when the boyfriend unleashed.

But still, I wasn't so much concerned with this specific scenario, as the general problem of how to respond to a violent assault that would ordinarily justify a proportionate response, but for the fact that the attacker has unmistakably disengaged. I realize this is a rather bizarre hypothetical, but people are crazy. I interact with a lot more crazy people than I do brown bears, though I've seen no shortage of discussion on how best to respond to rabid grizzlies.

 

[Cosmoline]

Of course you call the police. It's an assault and battery. You report it. You wait. If the idiot thugs want to jeer and wait with you GREAT! Let them. Don't get in a cursing match with them, let alone draw your firearm. Why would you need to?

 

[Route666]

In the very rare occurrence that this sort of thing might happen I would do exactly what Cosmoline said! You walk off to a safe(r) distance and get on the phone to the police. Nothing may come of it except the police have it on report and if it happens again they may be on the case quicker, or even in the area already.

To further stop the situation from happening in the first place I believe you should, (in the case of the video, not really the OP's question) if you see two guys shoving each other around, either don't go near them or at least YOU walk between them and your wife. I would be less likely to react violently if I were whacked in the face VS my wife or girlfriend.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Just looked at the tape, there is no doubt that slapping the GF was accidental...I would also suggest that the two original guys were drunk and likely unaware that the girl had been struck.

So it would be a scenario like you were walking down the store aisle, pass behind someone, they turn and their arm swings to strike your GF. I would think attacking them would lead to charges brought against you. Assault and Battery require specific intent to be criminal...at least in this state

 

[strambo]

Ideally, they would have been more aware and just gave them a wide berth before they got that close (I've done this w/ sketchy people lots).

As it happened, the BF response was fast enough he couldn't know the "assault" ended and if he wasn't really paying attention, couldn't tell it was accidental.

 

[highorder]

Just looked at the tape, there is no doubt that slapping the GF was accidental...

I saw it differently.

I think I saw the drunkard catch sight of the woman out of the corner of his eye, and then do something drunks find funny; hit people.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

If he had given it another second before launching right into him, that guy might have even apologized. But from the boyfriend's point of view, it would have definitely looked intentional, and worthy of a beating. Guess he was lucky they were drunk and had no idea that was coming.

If someone did do something like that and then try to disengage, in most states it would be up to you on whether you wanted to lay into him or not. The stand your ground laws do not require you to retreat or just take it in stride while your wife gets assaulted. Worse case scenario legally, you BOTH get charged for fighting. Just don't draw unless you WILL DIE otherwise.

 

[jbh13]

Spray or taser for the gf. And camera phone ready to snap their mugs before they flee prior to the police getting there.

 

[Kleanbore]

If someone did do something like that and then try to disengage, in most states it would be up to you on whether you wanted to lay into him or not.

Nope, not unless you want to become a criminal.

The stand your ground laws do not require you to retreat or just take it in stride while your wife gets assaulted.

True, but the operative word is "while." If the person has in fact tried to disengage, your use of force is not justified.

Worse case scenario legally, you BOTH get charged for fighting.

What happens to him is not important to you. Worst case for you is not being charged--it is being convicted.

Just don't draw unless you WILL DIE otherwise.

Or maybe, unless she will be seriously injured.

 

[Route666]

I'd like to say that the first half of my previous response was based on the OP's statement that conjured an image to me of a couple of hoodlums standing on the path's side being quiet and then one bitch-slapping the woman as she walked past and then going back to the other couple of hoodlums on the side to have a chuckle.

The second half was a response to the video, a very different scenario. The guy and woman may have even known or had previous interactions with the two who got beaten as he is dressed in Euro-ganster trackies much like those two, and they were already being filmed. Also he reacted WAYYY too quickly to the situation than if it were random. If it were unexpected he would have had at least half a second of stunned, ***?? before attacking.

 

[leadcounsel]

Not able to watch the video, but here are my basic impressions
1) Situational awareness. Don't be in that situation
2) If you're in that situation, leave.
3) Put something between you and potential aggressors, like distance or an obstacle.
4) Call for help (police, etc.) if possible, if given the time
5) IMO it doesn't take much to fear imminent serious bodily harm; this can come in the form of being up against someone with a knife, club, length of chain or being outnumbered. I would typically be armed and I woundn't hesitate to at least draw down on other(s) if I were backed into that corner. I woundn't necessarily shoot, but I would let them know that I was dead serious that I intended to defend myself.

And NO, this would not be construed as aggravated assault on my part, because as I stated, I would be in fear of imminent serious bodily harm because the aggressors are armed and/or outnumber me.

 

[Sevenfaces]

I would keep my gun holstered and kick their teeth in.

More seriously, its also entirely possible that during the slap I might turn and draw my weapon just because I see someone taking aggressive action towards myself/my party. How am I supposed to know hes just slapping her and not have a razor in his hand? not to say I will just draw and fire, though. If he clearly disengages from the confrontation, you can bet your ass I'll be calling the cops. and if he tries to flee, I will be following, if he tries to attack me for calling the cops, well... escalation of force... Here in FL the laws are in the favor of the law abiding citizen.

 

[MisterMike]

Now that I've seen the clip, it looks to me like the two "thugs" were drunk and that the "slap" was unintentional.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

They are thugs. Being drunk doesn't absolve you of guilt. The slapper committed battery. Not assault which is specific intent, but it's still plain old battery. In that case I would say calling the police would be the best bet, followed by a good dose of pepper spray. Drawing a firearm is a no-go as there was no threat to life. But unintentional or not, it's still a crime.

 

[highorder]

Am I the only person that saw the hit as intentional?

Watch it again, and watch both thugs. They appear aware of the couples presence.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Am I the only person that saw the hit as intentional?

Watch it again, and watch both thugs. They appear aware of the couples presence.

Apparently you are

I've watched in several times. You're right that they are, one guy certainly is, aware of the couple's presence...that's why they (he) stepped out of the way to let them pass...but the contact wasn't focused and appeared to be just the swing of the arm as the first guy who was attacked turned.

I think you're attributing too much ability to form intention to the besotted.

 

[Mudinyeri]

If the assualt was intentional ... citizens arrest.