Dealing with non-continuing assaults

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Would that, perhaps, be the wisest thing to do? Perhaps not. There's a whole lot of "who knows" in "perhaps" which brings us back to the impossibility of correctly answering a theoretical question such as the one posed in the O.P. There is, simply, too much "perhaps" in the theory of the question.

While you can surely change the facts to fit your answer and your preferred response, I think to say that it is impossible because of perhaps tend to confuse the issue for the less knowledgeable who might read this looking for guidance.

The beauty of the theoretical question is that it removes the perhaps. The point is to gain insight into the legality of attacking someone who no longer poses an imminent danger, even if they did intentionally commit a battery on your companion. The point of the question is to "draw the line in the sand" for want of a better phrase...when should you not.

It isn't about if you want to attack them, it isn't about standing up for your wife (after all, it is now too late to defend her) and it isn't about your chances of "getting away with it" (in the judicial system)

Attacking a person who is no longer an imminent danger to you or your wife, would be the same as attacking a person seated at a bus stop or in a wheel chair on the side of the road. It would be the same action, possibly legally (due to intent) worst, than the person who struck your wife.

To rationalize otherwise is a personal choice, but you would be on shaky legal ground at best.
 
My point, and I'll agree that it has strayed from the O.P.'s question, is that if someone struck my wife, and I believed that they did it intentionally, I would probably react in a manner similar to the man in the video.
If you have to do so to defend her, OK. If your action results from a desire for retribution, you have absolutely no legal ground on which to stand.

Apparently, the man in the video felt that the strike was intentional ... or maybe he was just spoiling for a fight and didn't care about the legal ramifications.
OK

BTW, if only half the people on a given jury didn't see the original attack as purposeful, then you would have - I believe - what is called a "hung jury." I suppose it's possible that a jury of one's "peers" would convict a man of assault for defending his wife after she was struck by a large, inebriated man, but I hardly find it probable.
You would get by in a criminal trial if one jurist saw it your way.

That is, if one juror concluded that
  1. there had been an intentional attack, and
  2. the attacker had not withdrawn, and
  3. you had no other possible course of action.

Problem is, if it gets that far, the defendant will have spent on his or her defense more than most people have put away for retirement.
 
I am a dumb old Hillbilly raised in KY, been a lot of places. I don't play what if, I react. Seemed to work after I got drafted in '64 and would do the same thing today. When I was younger I heard a man make an indecent proposal to my wife. I left him on the parking lot in a large shopping center around Christmas with at least 100 witnesses. Nobody said squat. I have my own rules and they have served me well for over half a century.
 
Was the guy acting in the law....no
Was he justified, I'd say so. There's no excuse for hitting someone like that....be aware of your surroundings.

I've seen that clip many times before, and if you see enough of these types of videos, you'll see the same idiots slapping others around too. It seems that guy had enough of their crap.
 
I'm pretty sure all 3 of them were thugs, the way the "boyfriend" responded. If it was me and I saw two guys standing there acting like that (and they probably saw them shoving each other as they walked up), I would have moved so that I was between the "girlfriend" and the guys as we walked by, and I would have walked on the far side of the path from them. Avoid the situation, and don't make a worse one for yourself by reacting like a thug.

IF you still happen to be slapped after moving away from them in the approach. Stop, voice that you are unhappy that you were just slapped and wait for an apology, if it isn't immediate anyway. If they start attacking you again, defend yourself by whatever means are necessary to save your own life.
 
We all have the benefit of a top-down 3rd person view, time to watch, re-play and debate. For the parties involved, they had seconds and only from one perspective.

The question of a jury isn't what would a reasonable person do given all the info we have now in hindsight, it is what would a reasonable person do in that moment with the information they had at that instant, also taking their background into consideration.

I don't think in the instant it happened, given how quickly he responded, he could reasonably know a) it was accidental or b) it was over.

Could he have made different decisions, sure.
 
Just looked at the tape, there is no doubt that slapping the GF was accidental

Sorry boss, you are WRONG...

Watch carefully, the bum turns his head slightly left, catches the girl in his peripheral vission and then times a round house back hand slap spot on.

No accident....

And the hubby is a a trained boxer for sure... with a pretty mean right cross

Are the guys stoned? Probably... and they are joking around mock fighting.... so beaning passerby is in keeping with the "fun"

Hubby taught them a lesson about picking fights when to stoned to respond.

Why do you think the bums followed the couple down the path... likely talking more trash and such.
 
re-watched and am still convinced that is intentional... he definitely saw them coming....

This video should be the poster child for S&T when it comes to seizing the initiative away from an attacker. Decisive action and obvious training turned a 2 on 1 into a decisive victory.

And if either bum had a weapon, neither of them had much of an opportunity to deploy it.

I think the hubby showed a lot of restraint, as the two bums were obviously left in good enough shape to further pursue them down the trail. As far as we know, the fight continued, and his quick initiative element of surprise was no more.

I'm not sure he was wise to leave them standing.

My only real criticism of the hubby is that incredibly gaudy jogging suite....:barf:
 
This video should be the poster child for S&T when it comes to seizing the initiative away from an attacker. Decisive action and obvious training turned a 2 on 1 into a decisive victory.

And if either bum had a weapon, neither of them had much of an opportunity to deploy it.

Agreed on all points.

A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week.
~George S. Patton
 
Assault is the credible threat to commit harm

Exact definitions vary as laws vary state to state. A better definition of Assault would be intentionally (knowingly or purposely) causing a reasonable apprehension (determined by the persons present apparent ability to carry it out) of imminent harmful or offensive conduct.

I would by contrast define battery as intentional harmful or offensive contact.

As to the question of the OP:

Again exact laws vary but in general a person may use reasonable force to prevent a threatened battery on the part of another. This is typically true even if there is in fact no real threat; you are allowed to have a reasonable mistake. What is important is what you reasonably believed. Reasonableness is judged by an objective standard. The level of force used is another consideration. Generally speaking one may use force reasonably believed to be necessary to defend from the imminent battery. Conduct has to reasonable to stop what the threat is. Again reasonableness is measured from an objective standard.

If the person has genuinely disengaged, then self defense is no longer on the table. Actions taken in retribution are different from those taken in self defense. It is even possible that the initial aggressor who has clearly stopped being an aggressor could then have a right to self defense against a person who came after them.

Now we could think of hypotheticals and make arguments about when those elements have or haven't been satisfied all day, but those are the basic principles at work. There are of course issues of what the people investigating will believe happened and then issues of prosecutorial discretion (but remember civil liability and remember it can be easier to injure someone quite a bit more severally in a fight than was intended e.g. one punch causes them to fall and hit their head very hard on the cement causing permanent brain injury or even death). There are also issues of proof and what a jury will believe. Those may weigh in against what is viscerally satisfying to do or what seems morally justified. Legally speaking however, one would be better off to call the cops.


Since some have said they would try to beat him up and then turn to a gun if it escalated. I would remind them that if one is deemed the aggressor in a conflict (which if the initial aggressor had truly broken off that aggression and was no longer acting as an aggressor you arguably would be the aggressor if you proceeded to attack them) then that precludes an assertion of self defense. In sum if you go punch the guy and his buddy jumps in and you then pull a gun and shoot one or both of them and try to argue that it was self defense and the level of force was reasonable based on a disparity of force you are going to have some serious issues.

As a practical matter a physical confrontation may turn ugly and you may never have a chance to then get to that gun. I've seen enough one punch KOs (including sucker punches/shots with objects from intervening 3rd parties) or very quick beat downs to know this possibility is a reality.

I have over a decade experience kickboxing, wrestling and doing BJJ. I am not particularly afraid of getting in a fist fight with your average Joe. I will say from the following perspectives: legal (both criminal and civil), and a survival/strategies and tactics perspective, you are better off calling the cops. There may be fleeting satisfaction in teaching some punk a lesson but there is potentially a lot to be lost if one miscalculates or things spin out of one's control. Before I get in any fight I ask if it is worth dying over. I also ask if it is worth killing someone over. I ask if it is worth going to jail over or being sued over. It makes it a lot easier to walk away with that perspective.

As The Bard so wisely put it, "The better part of valor is discretion, in the which better part I have sav'd my life."
 
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I predict the exact scenario of angrily and intentionally bumping someone and then walking on will play out thousands of times this year, in crowded malls during the Christmas shopping season. Tired and cranky people act irrationally; they get mad that someone isn't walking fast enough, or that someone looking at a product won't move. As soon as they shut off the part of the brain that reminds them that the bipeds around them are humans, they'll push and shove without a thought to the ramifications.

Similar to how people drive during rush hour - pass you on the right, cut into your lane so you slam the brakes, slow down for no reason, and then pull into the parking spot beside you without any self-awareness.

Insofar as stabbings are a rough surrogates for less violent behavior, if you watch the news you'll see a spike in urban mall stabbings between Halloween and Christmas.
 
Hate to say it but been in a similar situation myself.

1990'ish a friend and I were walking in a park. The park is circular, and surrounded by city streets on all sides. Anyway we're walking along talking, and a car pulls up next to the curb with 3-4 college age guys in it, one of them jumps out of the passenger side walks over to us asking if we could give him a light (neither of us know this guy by the way). Two seconds later he throws a punch, hitting my friend in the eye and sprints back to the car. Fortunately no one was seriously hurt, but the motive remains a complete mystery.

Police were called, the officer says likely a fraternity prank or something. If I could have gotten my hands on him before he dove back into that car....... legal grounds be dammed.
 
Was the guy acting in the law....no
Was he justified, I'd say so. There's no excuse for hitting someone like that....be aware of your surroundings.

I've seen that clip many times before, and if you see enough of these types of videos, you'll see the same idiots slapping others around too. It seems that guy had enough of their crap.

Fair point.
If you've had almost any interaction with the justice system in your local area, then you know that the courtroom is a magical land where almost anything can happen.
Sometimes you have to do what you have to do.
 
If I could have gotten my hands on him before he dove back into that car....... legal grounds be dammed.

And if the other three guys had then decided to get out of the car?
 
I took a close look at the original video. I think he hit her on purpose. He was kind of looking to the left (where she was coming from) and turned right as she passed him. That's a very odd hand motion to make unless you're going for an over-the-shoulder backhand. At first I thought, "Okay, maybe it was accidental", but then I looked closer, I'm quite certain it was intentional. The way he looked slightly to the left before doing it tells me he was planning it and judging the timing.
 
I saw him look over his left shoulder, then swing his arm around as he looks over his right shoulder. What his specific intentions were, I don't know. But he certainly had some intentions of doing something to disrupt the people walking by. As it ended up, that was by hitting the girl...assault. The boyfriend then almost immediately hit him back. Seems justified to me. I don't blame him one bit. The guy deserved it.

Now, him attacking the second guy, who appeared not to be doing anything, that was suspect. What we can't tell from the video is what was being said, if anything. Had that second guy verbally threatened him, or said something to the likes of "you wanna fight?" or something, then the boyfriend may have felt there was no just walking away without these guys doing something else. But we don't know what was said.

If nothing was, he was justified hitting the first guy, not so much the second. If he was threatened by the 2nd guy, then he was justified all the way around. By the way the 2 guys followed them after, it seems more and more like he was justified from the start.
 
If someone did do something like that and then try to disengage, in most states it would be up to you on whether you wanted to lay into him or not.

This is not true in most places. I can tell you for a fact that this isn't true based on Colorado law. If someone makes an honest attempt to disengage from an assault against you, you are no longer protected by claiming "self defense" if you attack them in retaliation (at least in the two states I've resided in).

Plus, in this instance it is quite clear from the video that the slap against the boxer's lady friend was unintentional.
 
Posted by Bonesinium: But he certainly had some intentions of doing something to disrupt the people walking by. As it ended up, that was by hitting the girl...assault. The boyfriend then almost immediately hit him back. Seems justified to me. I don't blame him one bit. The guy deserved it.
What someone may "deserve" after having done something has absolutely nothing to do with the lawful justification of the use of force, deadly or otherwise.

A citizen has the legal right to employ necessary force to defend himself or a third person, or to prevent certain types of serious crimes against persons, but the right to punish is reserved for the legal system.

Girodin nailed it:

Actions taken in retribution are different from those taken in self defense. It is even possible that the initial aggressor who has clearly stopped being an aggressor could then have a right to self defense against a person who came after them.

Not to mention the likelihood of criminal charges and civil liability....
 
Non-life threatening situation. Turn the other cheek, swallow your pride, report the incident to the police asap with a description and last known location of the assailant. Press charges if possible.

Take the high road.
 
Plus, in this instance it is quite clear from the video that the slap against the boxer's lady friend was unintentional.

Since a number of people think it "clearly" was intentional I guess its not so clear either way.
 
after watching the video a number of times, I feel like the guy intentionally flung his hand like that, and I think that as far as the "non continuing" aspect, the male companion started kicking ass before the guy had a chance to display or delcare he had no intention of continuing aggression.

If I were in the exact same scenario, and carrying, I would have done the exact same thing, except I would not hit the other guy, as he was just standing there. I absolutely would not draw my gun, and I would have stopped any use of force the moment the first guy had fallen. Do I think the husband could have been more deliberate in his reaction? Of course. Do I think he reacted poorly? Not a chance.
 
And if the other three guys had then decided to get out of the car?

Totality of circumstances.. I wasn't alone at the time and several friends were already in motion to assist. But I would have loved to at least hold the gentleman to explain his actions to the po po.
 
I can't watch the video, but if someone disengages then retaliation is not allowed in every juridstiction I know of. If I was in this situation I'd do what i thought was morally correct(which would depend on what was being said)
I would ask WTH! if they apologized even in jest I'd let it go, if they challenged me I'm not sure what I'd do. This is probably the wrong thing to do since I would be giving up suprise and perhaps escalating the situation I'm just being honest though.


I will say as someone whos been in lots of physical altercations in my younger days. from what I hear the bf acted properly if he was going to fight(strike first and without warning) Also, hitting the second guy was correct bc if those two were serioius he wouldn't have time to hesitate. Legally he could probably spin it for the police esp if the woman has a bruise on her face and being outnumbered
 
if someone disengages

the whole altercation happens in a matter of seconds... and there is no audio...yet people are definitely talking... (uttering threats?)

There are two of the guys grappling around with each other.. and one hauls off and beans the girl in the face with a well timed spinning back fist.

Hubby immediately responds by drilling the guy, which makes him stagger back for a half a second...

I think it's a far stretch to say he has disengaged... and boyfriend immediately continues to drill him several times from a boxers pose.

I wouldn't say that either BG disengaged... they actually stayed right there and when driven back, walked right back toward the mix while the boyfriend turned to pummel the other guy (who is right there running his mouth, not disengaging).


Watch it carefully... each time the boyfriend drills one of the BGs, they are walking towards him... that's not disengaging.
 
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