Fighting gun?

[ZVP]

I have studied about Hickock and his feats with a Cap and Ball revolver. I massivelly respect his talents and bravado!
Thinking about todays Cap and Ball revolver, you have several weak points working against you with a percussion gun. First is the caps rubbing loose and falling off while carrying and then when needed, no cap is on the Nipple. Proper cap fitting is paramount! Pinch and Press the caps on! Inspect your holster to locate any possible rub spots in the Holster.
CHeck the Caps frequentlly. Caliber? .36 has been proven adequate during the War between the States and on the Frontier. It is a high velocity load capable of good penetration to vitals.
The .44? Heavy Ball Heavy powder charges available! The knock-down power is there and with Conicals, nearly equal to modern ammunitions. You still have the Cap worries from above but that can all be dealt with by some clipping and proper holster fitting.
Both Calibers and several gun designs were developed for use as fighting guns. It was their basic purpose not as a sport pistol as we usethem today. The Colt Navy was probablly the best shooter-fitting revolver ever made. The grip is perfect. The Army Model is second best fitted to the hand. Remington also fits the hand naturally and points nearly as well as a Colt. The additional strength of the frame and other modern concepts to the revolver made it a favorite for harsh conditions use!
Personally I favor the 5 1/2" Remington, just for dependability and handling issues (with Caps) and Secondly, I'd choose a 5 1/2" Colt for quick handling. Both choices retain plenty of barrel for powder burnand would het good powder ignition for Conical bullet uses.
The C&B revolver is not the optimal modern day gun for fighting but as a revolver, they were designed for only one reason...
A well set-up, good running Percussion revolver should not be shined on by those thinking about Combat revolvers. By todays Semi-auto standards, it may be slightlly slow but in no way is it out of the battle!
One could save your life today as it did back in 1851.
One is probablly better off these days with a wonder-nine but the old C&B is definatelly ready as it was back in the day...
What's your opnion of the fight readiness of a Cap and Ball Revolver these days? Can it keep up and save your life?
ZVP

 

[4v50 Gary]

The cap 'n ball can be used to defend oneself today. However, it wouldn't be my first choice since I have modern detachable box magazine fed rifles, pump action shotguns with extended magazines, pistols with laser sights and even cartridge revolvers that take speedloaders.

 

[ZVP]

Good point!
Modern "Fighting" Shotgun? Now there is the answer!
There is no excuse needed for using the most modern, fully functional defense weapon.
I was just defending the worth of a good Percussion gun.
ZVP

 

[Noz]

A double barrel 12 is the ultimate.

Would a C&B work? Sure.

Best choice. NO.

 

[Joe Demko]

C&B can work, but I see no reason to prefer one over a more modern cartridge weapon. The reason usually given by those who affect the carry of C&B guns is that they shoot them often and are therefore skilled in their use. One should practice with any weapon, though.

 

[Voodoochile]

In todays world there are some good options that would retain the percussion cap to the cone one of which is simple nail polish, any kind really as long as you didn't mind the color, it helps seal the cap end nicely for those time when the weapon is subjected to harsh weather & along with the normal crimping will help keep the caps in place, so will Bees Wax that was dripped over the cap after installation.

As far as being a viable weapon to defend one self, yes, any of them are quite capable of that role as they were 150+ years ago but unless it was the first or only available weapon I would preferr a more modern firearm for that role but then I wouldn't feel under armed either.

 

[72coupe]

Jesse James was shot in the chest with a 36 caliber something or other and lived a long while afterwards. I really think the 36 is marginal for stopping power as its is in the range of the very smallest mordern 38s.

I saw a program where they exumed Jesse James body for DNA tests and the 36 ball was found in his chest area.

Of course he was still dead from the 45 cal shot to the head.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

If I was living in some oppressively anti-handgun city, where only the bad guys had cartridge guns, but for some reason the authorities allowed cap-n-ball revolvers, I'd have several Remington 1858's around the house ready to rock, plus at least one SxS 12 gauge caplock..., but if I had the option of a breech loading 18" coach gun or a pump..., I'd have a modern shotgun.

LD

 

[steelbird]

C&B may not be the best for self defense, but they are certainly capable of being used for that purpose. But you had better be very skilled and know the capabilities of your gun. A 58 Remmie does have the advantage of a quick change cylinder for more ammo, but powder fouling can make it useless very quickly. Caps can also be an issue not just in looseness, but getting into the mechanism of the gun ( this was, and still is ) an issue that comes up with the Colt design. As far as ammo, it is well known that a heavy, slow bullet, roundball or conical, is very deadly. Just ask the ghosts of thousands of dead soldiers from the the 16th to the 19th centuries, if you could. If you choose BP for self-defense, well then, fine. But you had better make sure you can use it in a way to end the fight very quickly.

 

[moonpie]

Bill Hickock understood the limitations of the cap and ball this is why he carried a pair. if forced into a situation i'd follow his example and empty both pistols into my antagonist as quickly as possible. then i'd run like hell before the smoke cleared.

 

[4v50 Gary]

I neglected to say it, but a working cap 'n ball is greater than a rock, harsh looks, a knife or cuss words. It beats being unarmed. My only concern would be the same as if I had a modern gun. Distance. I don't want to be close enough to the opponent such that one may be disarmed.

 

[AbitNutz]

As much as I love my too much modified 5-1/2' SS ROA, given the choice between defending my life or my families with or a wonder .40 with 15 rounds. I would have to choose the rubber gun.

Having said that, I would not volunteer to stand in front of my ROA at any pistol worthy distance. 45 grains of triple 7, a Hollow point, 210 BigLube lit by an RWS 1075+.

Is it as reliable as a rubber wonder gun, no. But that's only before I get going. Once all the oil is burned off and all the nipples clear...it will hurt you pretty much every time.

But for defense, you need a gun that is as reliable out of the box as my ex-wife's monthly nag call.

 

[4v50 Gary]

But for defense, you need a gun that is as reliable out of the box as my ex-wife's monthly nag call.

AbitNutz - that's sigline quality material.

 

[Voodoochile]

AbitNutz that has got to be a classic verse..

Like I said, I wouldn't feel under gunned having my NMA in my hand but if I had the chance to grab my M1911A1 well my choice would swing to the moe modern piece.

 

[ZVP]

I wasn't suggesting facing up to a modern gun, I was just just reaffirming the purpose of the Fighting Cap andBall handgun and evidentlly you all out there agree it is a viable solution in a gunfight!
Heck YES, modern day guns are far better than the old C&B is but for what they are, the old Percussion Revolver is all it was ment to be. One would need to be in a real situation to need to pick up a Black Powder Cap and Ball gun to defend onesself but even 150+ years old, the function is still there!
I shoot mine for fun and they give me much of that! Accuracy, power and fun are built into current replicas.
ZVP

 

[Jim K]

I would certainly never choose one today for defense, but if a C&B revolver was all I had, I could make do, at least for 6 shots. It would be just as reliable as any modern revolver (and maybe more relilable than some). I used to do a lot of C&B revolver shooting and I can't recall ever having had a misfire.

BTW, the cap problems didn't exist in the old days; they could buy proper size caps anywhere.

Jim

 

[Pancho]

This discussion brings to mind the old adage " bringing a knife to a gun fight". If the bad guys probably have cartridge guns I want to have a cartridge gun to defend my family and property. If they have automatic weapons you can bet I'll find an automatic weapon too.

 

[ElvinWarrior]

Let me throw in a little twist.

I currently load my Remi 44 New Army with two projectiles, one stacked on top of the other, using a .454 Round ball as the main bullet, and capped off with one of these...



They are called the "Stever R. Salvo, Stackables" and some very interesting combinations are possible with them.

I generally load my "multiples" with about 38 to 40 grains of BP.

Just an FYI Guys...

And ZVP,

I am with you ditto, ditto, down the line with your choices in C&B. The 5-1/2" Remi NA 44 is a terrific pistol, and is, considerably more easily handled than the longer barreled big brothers out there. I want to get one and dandify it up a bit, gold plate the cylinder, loading lever, hammer and trigger, nickel plate everything else, and slap on some standard walnut checkered grips painted with a base for white laquer, and finished off with a coating of blue pearl finish, sealed of course.

Just a little fantasy of mine... I guess I am a bit more of the river boat gambler, a fancy-dan, than I am a mountain man.... Oh well, we can't all be big bad trapers and such, somebody has to run the poker tables, and hand out free whiskey and Ceegars.... LOL !!! (Drunk players loose more, and bet more than they should... Vegas has known this with their free drinks since day 1 !!!)



P.S... And... Wild Bill is MY ALL TIME old time hero too !!! I love that GUY !!! If I had been lucky enough to had been alive back when he was around, I think I would have found a way to become at least a casual buddy of his, if not some kind of a semi-regular side kick ...


Sincerely,

ElvinWarrior... aka... David, "EW"

 

[Boom-stick]

If I was living in some oppressively anti-handgun city, where only the bad guys had cartridge guns, but for some reason the authorities allowed cap-n-ball revolvers,

Or Great Britain?

And as for BP fighting guns, I'd probably prefer a couple of Howdah pistols with a suitable buck and ball load.

 

[tpelle]

I am also in the camp the feels the .36 cal percussion revolver is a lightweight in terms of terminal ballistics. It actually stacks up more in line with a modern .32.

As a side note, somewhere i read that, in comparing percussion revolver calibers to modern calibers, the percussion revolver usually was more equivalent to the next side smaller of cartridge revolvers. In other words, .44 percussion would equal a .38 or .41 cartridge, .38 percussion would be more like a .32 cartridge, and a .31 percussion would be like a .22 LR. However it seems that most experts rate the round ball higher than the conical bullet for some reason.

I also have a minor issue with the notion of pinching the cap to make them stay on. Cap fit to the nipple is of utmost importance, and the size and shape of the nipple - too much taper being bad - needs to conform to the skirt of the cap. Pinching the cap to possible add a little friction and gripping power is OK, as long as the skirt is re-formed to a nipple-conforming tubular shape by the act of pressing it on. I personally have standardized on CCI #10 caps as they have longer skirts for a better seal and more cap-to-nipple surface friction, and have either selected or modified all of my revolver nipples to conform to them. Never have problems with caps coming off either while carrying or under recoil, and also no problems with cap fragment jamming up the action.

Personally I would not feel unarmed in these modern times with my 1860 Army or my Remington. But I would feel better with my 1911 or my Glock 21. Or my FAL or my Remington 870 for that matter.

It's like that story of the lady, upon seeing the Texas Ranger with his pistol holstered on his belt, asking the Ranger if he was expecting trouble. "No Ma'am. If I were expecting trouble I'd be carrying my rifle."

 

[ElvinWarrior]

Maybe someday, a brilliant idea will strike the makers of caps... Like Remington, and others...

Why don't we offer nipples that actually fit our caps as an optional product?

My, wouldn't it be wonderful is manufacturers actually allowed their engineers and employees to use their brains, and come up with new products for their companies, instead of brow beating their employees down into the dust to be good lil robots and just do what the big boss, who is usually a manager type, and not an engineering type, tell them what to do, how to do it, when to do it, and why they need to be told this 5 times a day.

Sincerely,

ElvinWarrior... aka... David, "EW"

 

[ElvinWarrior]

Boom-Stick,

I like double barreled big bore pistols too, and If I could get away with it, I would carry one, at least in my glove box. But, me thinks, most Police out there would take one look at that thing, and think it was some kind of an illegal short barreled shot gun. And, in most parts, Police arrest people first, then figure out if they actually had a legal reason to do so, latter.

Sincerely,

ElvinWarrior... aka... David, "EW"

 

[mykeal]

Why don't we offer nipples that actually fit our caps as an optional product?

Because the caps they make are not precision products and vary significantly from batch to batch. You don't get precision for 4 cents each.

 

[pohill]

From an old Colt Industries pamphlet:
"Percussion caps are now made in sizes from nine to thirteen. Ten and eleven are the best numbers for the small and medium-sized arms, and twelve for the larger sizes, although, as different-sized nipples are sometimes met in specimens of the same model, no hard and fast rule can be given. It is better to have caps slightly too large than too small, as large caps can be pinched together at the bottom enough so they will stay on the nipples, but small ones must be driven down on the nipple by the blow of the hammer, and this process frequently cushions the blow to the extent of producing a misfire."

most parts, Police arrest people first, then figure out if they actually had a legal reason to do so, latter.

Really? I mean...really?

And, good luck with getting a confiscated $800 legal short barreled shot pistol back from the local PD once they realize how expensive they are, and that they are legal... "We're so very sorry, it seems, the evidence was misplaced !!! Do you have a reciept for that?"

Really again? Never miss a chance to bash the cops, right? Did someone get a ticket they didn't deserve, or did a cop steal your Howdah?

 

[ZVP]

Ya'd think that somewhere the manufacturers of the funs and the Cap makers would talk and discover the problems with all the different sizes! Why can't they just get it together and build one Nipple and one Cap size, for Christs sake it's 2011 we have been to the Moon and have CNC Machienery!
Well I guess that someday this will happen just not today...
ZVP