Fighting gun?

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Pohill,

Ya really, I live in LA.

I have no respect for the LAPD, none, but ya know what, I have even less for Barack O-Blah-Blah.

I am a die hard freedom advocate, a free speech and free will advocate, and I thoroughly dislike anyone who thinks they have a right to stop me, search me, harass me, only because they have nothing better to do with their useless lives.

Sincerely,

ElvinWarrior... aka... David, "Ew"
 
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Mykeal,

Modern manufacturing technologies can manufacture highly precise products for less than 4 cents a pop. Your average aspirin bottle costs less than 4 cents when mass produced in the hundreds of thousands per day. And that is a very precisely manufactured item, the injection molds alone are in the millions of dollars each.

The actual truth of the matter, is closer to, they dominate the marketplace because no viable competitor has come along to challenge their market share...

When that happens... see them clean up their collective acts.

Sincerely,

ElvinWarrior... aka... David, "EW"
 
Well, OK, then Mr Warrior, point taken.
 
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The market for aspirin bottles is somewhat larger than the market for caps. I daresay that caps are a really minimally profitable product and that the manufacturers would sooner drop them from production than re-tool to produce them at a precision size. Doing a run of them, from time to time, on existing tooling probably nets them just enough cash to keep doing exactly that.
Aside from a relatively few shooters who are really, really into percussion revolvers, most of the market consists of people who own C&B guns as nothing more than range toys (that they fire on the relatively few occasions when they feel like cleaning it) and re-enactors. For those folks, the caps the makers turn out right now are good enough. Nobody is going to re-tool to produce caps for the tiny handful who affect to carry C&B weapons for self-defense.
 
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As a combat vet with close jungle contact experience, I'll state that you would be taking a toy gun to a gunfight.
I like charcoal burners of all sorts.
I like my life well enough not to risk it depending on one.
 
Rocky, been there, done that and I agree in a jungle situation the moisture would change the odds a bit (even if everything was well sealed). However, in a gun fight? I'd take my chances with MY, and only MY, bp revolvers any day. All it takes is practice, practice, practice, and when you're all done, practice again!! One well placed shot from a Rogers & Spencer win's over "spray and pray" from a semi auto any day.
 
Boom-stick, made a comment regarding Howdah pistols as a powerful self defense weapon, and I agreed with him in theory. They are powerful and effective weapons. My comment, concerning the police, was with respect to that particular weapon. Someone not familiar with double barreled short smooth bore pistols, and this includes police as well, just because a person is a police officer does not mean they are up on every aspect of every weapon made, would, in fact, most probably think that the howdah pistol was an illegal short barreled hand held shotgun of some undetermined type. I don't think, there is a single state in the Union, where a modern, hand held shotgun pistol, is legal. It is a reasonable scenario to think, a police officer, not aware of this particular type of pistol, may, believe they were completely justified, in arresting a person, for possession of a weapon they honestly believed was illegal. But they would be mistaken about that wouldn't they? Mistaken arrests occur daily, for all kinds of perceived situations the officer was not fully informed on.

Carrying the scenario one step further, they would, in fact impound the weapon as evidence.

Now, I didn't want to side track the conversations here with all of the ugly nitty gritty details of who actually runs LA and why and how they get away with that...

What I said was basically... and I am paraphrasing, that I believed most police officers would think a Howdah was an illegal weapon, and probably arrest an individual upon the basis of that belief.

Sincerely,

ElvinWarrior... aka... David, "EW"
 
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Rocky, been there, done that and I agree in a jungle situation the moisture would change the odds a bit (even if everything was well sealed). However, in a gun fight? I'd take my chances with MY, and only MY, bp revolvers any day. All it takes is practice, practice, practice, and when you're all done, practice again!! One well placed shot from a Rogers & Spencer win's over "spray and pray" from a semi auto any day.
Autos don't spray and pray, though shooters might.
All it takes is practice, practice, practice, and when you're all done, practice again!!
Applies to any weapon you intend to use to defend your life or that of your loved ones. You may like your Rogers & Spencer for romantic reasons, but there is nothing stopping you (save that romantic affectation) from practicing to the requisite level of skill with a modern semi or revolver. Or maybe you can be that very first guy to come up with a legitimate reason to prefer a C&B over a modern weapon.
 
Joe,

I understand your point of view, in thinking, that, the small market for BP percussion caps, does not justify the expense of tooling needed to produce a precision product.

I however am one of those strange and rare birds out there, who spent most of my life in automated factory control systems, as a principal systems analyst, (Architect), designing and building custom production and inventory control systems, (MRP) for large to very large manufacturing companies and corporations that can afford such technology.

I am not exactly a novice in manufacturing systems, or, manufacturing processes.

And I humbly disagree with you.

There is more of a markup in crappy Remington #10 and #11 caps than you think there is. They sell from anywhere from around 5 to 8 bux a tin, depending upon where you buy them. The tins they package them in, cost, the company, perhaps three cents each, in the quantities they buy them in. The amount of thin copper sheeting, and the micro dot of percussion explosive used in each cap, buying such items in very large bulk, mass discount prices, would amount to perhaps another 15 to 20 cents per 100 pack.

So, they have, probably an associated direct cost of on or about a quarter, for each 100 count tin, of a product they probably wholesale to retailers for on or about $3.00 a tin...

There is money in that formula, beleive me, they wouldn't be doing it at all if they weren't making money at it.

They reason they make crap, isn't because it's too costly to make a better product, it's not, given that kind of a profit margin, the reason is, why bother? If you're pretty much the top dog, pedaling crap, why spend money on a market you already control and are not likely to loose?

Thats why.

Sincerely,

ElvinWarrior... aka... David, "EW"
 
If for some unfortunate reason I could not have my modern cartridge guns, but were still permitted defensive arms then I would want something big, nasty, and preferably with more than one barrel.

For long guns, something like the Pedersoli 72cal double rifle would be preferable, though the 58cal version would also suffice. A Remington revolving carbine would be a distant second choice.

If I were to need a handgun in such a scenario, I would first choose a LeMat above all others - 9 shots of .44 and a 20 gauge shot barrel would go a long way towards making up for the technology handicap. A 1858 Starr 'double action' .44 would rate a close second place choice for its improved firing speed. A 58 cal Howda pistol would also suffice.
 
One well placed shot from a Rogers & Spencer win's over "spray and pray" from a semi auto any day.

True, but I've owned and shot some very accurate semi-auto handguns. The DA .357 revolvers I currently count on for defense are also very capable of putting lead on target when I do my part. You're comparing the men using the guns, not the guns themselves.
Compared to a single shot percussion handgun, a percussion Colt makes a lot of sense.
Compared to a Glock 17 or a Browning Hi-Power... well, you do the math.
 
i like my NAA super companion loaded by my bedside for the reason it is more reliable than the cartridge version. it is not alone though, i bought a .357 that i keep close as well. i also have put some fragmenting hollow points in it, and i like to use a compressed Triple Seven load of about 7 grains. this will blow a fat hole in anything soft and will easily penetrate 1/2 inch thick plywood. i also seal my caps with some nail polish and it goes boom everytime. i also shoot it dry every morning.
 
I live in LA, CA too ... you have the choice to move ya know... your view is alot differant than mine. It must be the attitude or the altitude from where I view things...too bad you have to feel that way EW, there is a better way to live.
I seem to have no problem being pulled over as I'm usually doing nothing wrong... except for now...right now I'm doing something wrong talkin' dodo in a Black Powder Forum.
Nice to meet you EW unless we've met already someplace else...
Later folks ... much later ;O)
 
Joe, the original question was would you trust a cap and ball revolver in a gun fight, not what's your 1st choice, by my bed rests a well used and practiced with, .357 4in bbl Texas Ranger Centennial Model S&W....my mom didn't raise no fool (nor romantic historian neither). But would I trust my c&b gun's if I had to? Absolutely. And I used "spray and pray" as a metaphore working on the pretext that bad guy's don't usually take time on the range to hone their shooting prowess. Seem's like you're just splittin' hairs so's you can get your 2 cent's in, or did you have a point I missed?
 
ZVP said:
What's your opnion of the fight readiness of a Cap and Ball Revolver these days? Can it keep up and save your life?

This was the original question...
I guess to answer this truthfully, I'd have to say "you're damn right it can!"
But at the same time, so can a crowbar. Crowbars are inexpensive, durable as hell and rarely break when used as self defense weapons, and highly effective if you're swinging one at an attacker that's just outside of arms reach and not armed with something as effective as a crowbar.
That doesn't make a crowbar the best defensive weapon. By some standards, it's not even a good defensive weapon... but if it's the weapon you've got when you need to defend yourself, maybe it's good enough.

So I guess that's what I think of percussion revolvers for SD.
 
For at-home use, I wouldnt have a problem with a bp revolver for defense. I even kept one loaded in my kitchen for a while, and with proper lube covering the bullet and some around the cap, I had no problem with the charges staying perfectly usable for 4-5 months at a time. Of course, I have since replaced it with a better and more modern piece. Point is that I trusted it and was glad to have it at the time, but it took more "tending to" than a modern handgun.

For carry, my biggest problem would be the size. Small framed people and women have a harder time hiding bigger guns, and black powder revolvers are generally not very compact. I have a hard time with a J-frame in the summer, let alone a Colt Navy. But once again, if it's what you've got, you're glad to have it!
 
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Here's the OP
Originally Posted by ZVP
What's your opnion of the fight readiness of a Cap and Ball Revolver these days? Can it keep up and save your life?

You responded
Originally Posted by sltm1
However, in a gun fight? I'd take my chances with MY, and only MY, bp revolvers any day. All it takes is practice, practice, practice, and when you're all done, practice again!! One well placed shot from a Rogers & Spencer win's over "spray and pray" from a semi auto any day.

which I take as a "yes" to ZVP's original question.

Seem's like you're just splittin' hairs so's you can get your 2 cent's in, or did you have a point I missed?

Your answer to the OP didn't say anything about .357's, badguys with .40's. Any reading of it, other than that you prefer the Spiller & Burr over a semi-auto, is not supported by what you put on the page. I didn't miss your point. You failed to make it.
 
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As I see it, the problem is that nobody is building fighting cap and ball revolvers these days. They are making toys and sporting goods with lower levels of quality control than you would want to take to war. If you want to (or must, in a repressive jurisdiction) depend on a c&b for self defense, plan on extensive testing and debugging.
Certainly a lot of the enthusiasts here can and do go through that, but if Joe Blow thinks he can buy a $169.99 special from Cabela's and be as well armed as ol' James Butler H., he will be sorely disappointed.
 
Jim Watson -
I heartily agree on your point about quality control. I've read that Colt's revolver's back in the 19th century required a great deal of hand fitting. I'm pretty sure that the 169.99 Cabela's gun has not undergone that amount of hand fitting and tuning. Anything hand done requires a skilled craftsman, and skilled craftsmen are getting harder and harder to find, and their shop charges are high. One hour of my gunsmith's time costs $45, and he isn't even a specialty guy. Add that to the cost of a revolver and you can see that the price might increase 50% or more.

Also, if J.B. Hickok had his revolvers nickle plated and had special grips on them, I would hazard a guess that he would have paid as much attention to the innards of the guns....
 
Let's be clear now. Let's not be speakin' and lumpin' together today's C&B reproductions with my ROA. That's like saying I got an ugly truck.
 
I happen to like ugly trucks... I think they have "character" !!! LOL !!!

Nope, no dandified RAM chromed out city slicker pimp "Truck" for me...

I haul balls, big ones, lead ones, not beach balls around...

I need me a beat up ol piece of crap that runs and runs and runs....One I can haul a chord of hardwood in, or, fill it up with about 10 cases of beer, and my buddies and go a huntin/campin with !!!

Thats a TRUCK !!!

Sincerely,

ElvinWarrior... aka... David, "Ew"

And my choice in side arms tends to be just as ugly and functional... And Ya, some people actually think fat chicks are cute too !!!

PiettaLe-Mat44Cal-20Ga91ShotWhiteSteelNavy-Army-1.jpg
 
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The wound channel of the projectile should figure into the analysis. Elmer Kieth reckoned the lead round ball to be then best killer of man or beast for a reason. Round lead balls make wicked wound channels.
In an article written on "one shot stops" in actual shootings recorded from history some revelations appeared.
If I remember right the 1860 Army Colt had a one shot stop "percent of 67" compared to the 45 Long Colt with a "54 percent" one shot stops.
It'sjust that figuring power on paper with vel. and ft/lbs is leaving something out....the effects of the projectile on human tissue.
The round lead ball is a very good incapacitor.
I've read stories about the 36cal. Colt incapacitating an antaganist and ending a fight even though the antaganist took a day or two to die. Read stories about the thick buffalo hide coats minimizing the effects of the wound a 36cal. makes. Distance is a real important consideration.
One may be surprised at the info in the article that showed the ballistic geletain penetrated much further with the Walker Colt and the lead ball than by the 44 Magnum jacketed hollow point. :eek:
One may be surprised that the 36cal. lead ball from a Colt 36cal. had more one shot stops than the 38 Special lead round nose bullet from a cartridge 38.
The 36cal.Navy is touted as being about like a .380 auto but......in terms of effects on humann tissue that ft/lbs and vel. data doesn't show the whole picture. Colt Navy revolvers are able to end fights shooting the proverbial lead round ball.:eek:
Sure there's all kinds of variables involved but info taken from recorded shootings shows the percussion revolvers in a different light.
A more recent story I heard about was one where a person was being robbed at gunpoint in the city. The person had the opportunity to draw and fire one shot from a brass frame cap&ball Colt. The antaganist was bent over incapacitated as the victim being robbed threw down the revolver and fleed never to be found and questioned. Wittnesses were there to substantiate the story or evidence. The brass frame cap&baller ended the robbery and probably saved the victims life and ....the cap&baller revolver wasn't able to be traced back to anyone.:neener:
The state of Michigan banned "cap&ballers" for years since "murders were done with them" in that state and the guns weren't tracable.
SIDE NOTE.......I have two ugly trucks that run and run and run (thru the woods and plowing thru multiflora rose fields and the like)since if they don't I make them run. Same with my cap&ballers Colts. I make them as accurate as any Remington type and make them as reliable as can be ..........since I have to stave off marrauding racoons in the barns and ferocious rabbits in the brush and killer squirrels bounding from the trees. That isn't considering the dangerous game like coyotes and feral dogs and ......the most dangerous of all....the proverbial ground hogs making boobie traps to break my legs in the woods and fields(holes to step in). Of course I'd never go to huntin and campin with a bunch of buddies and "cases of beer". Alcohol and guns....don't mix. The beer.....that's for the back porch and me and my hound dogs and my rocking chair. (Old guys like rocking chairs, backporches and ole hound dogs).ha ha ha
I have to make a note here.....as far as cap&baller revolvers and shooting ground hogs......the freakin things can be gut shot clean thru and entrails dragging two feet behind and...still get back in their holes after being shot with a 38 revolver,a Sharps 45cal. rifle or a Winchester firing a 45 Colt bullet. Put a lead ball in the ,"Hawken or the Walker revolver", and they don't go anywhere after being shot with one(within decent range limitations).
 
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Joe, Correct, it's a definite YES, I said "I would take my chance's" with my bp revolvers, which answered the question of "fight readiness". And the original question didn't specify if it was a gun fight or not, I did, sorry, shoulda said for self protection in any emergency posed by any threat. They're also good for bashing the BP over the head to create a less lethal wound. Guess that covers it. Oh, buy the way, I re-read it in it's entirety and still don't get the point in your original reply to my 1st post. If you are having a problem with me personally, let's take it private over email shall we?!
 
Moderator?

Well EW you've just shown me your age ... best you go talk to mom instead of me ...
Normally what you just type would have been Deleted ... you must have some real pull in here or your somebodies kid.

Gary or any moderator ... is what he typed allowed in here now or is that something over looked?
This sure looks like a personal attack on me now??? :confused: HeeHee :O)
Y'all have any kind a fun you want in here ... I just thought there was a political Forum for this stuff.
Later Guys... you too EW :cool:

I forgot to add and way off topic ...both of us ... thanks again...
 
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