First Rifle - .357 or .30-30

[Brass Rain]

First Rifle - .357 or .30-30?

I've glanced over this particular forum a few times and finally decided to sign up, knowing this would be a good place to ask my question.

I turn eighteen in a few months and have narrowed my choice of first rifle to either an Stg-2000 (civi variation of the AK with black polymer parts in stead of plywood), some AR-15 of some kind, or a lever-action Winchester/Marlin/whatever else. I know with the ban-happy (D)ykes running around I should probably go for the AR, but I'm not really making the kind of money to be able to buy a $900+ rifle now. And I love lever-actions.

I've narrowed calibers down to the age-old .30-30 Winchester and the .357 Magnum. And there are a few advantages for each one for me.

EDITS:

The .357 would hold more ammunition and be cheaper to shoot. It's also versatile with .38s and ammunition ranges from light varmint loads to (somewhat) higher-power hunting loads. But I would sacrifice power and range.

The .30-30 would keep going fast, accurately, and powerfully for quite a bit longer than .357 but it would be more expensive.

It would be used as a general purpose rifle--shooting targets, cans and bottles, possible small game or as a survival/sustinance gun if ever needed or SHTF situations. It wouldn't be used for hunting recreationally as I find that kind of unsporting for the animal. (Please don't get ticked off if you're a hunter as I mean no offense, I just don't see a huge thrill in taking out a defenseless animal from several hundred yards away just for fun. Now handgun or bow-hunting I could see. Or dangerous game like elephant, big cats, etc.) I also like the htought of having a more far-reaching rifle, whether I need it currently or not. I want to be able to shoot to the limits of whatever I get but would prefer if that was a somewhat loose limit. Hurricane evacuation is also something to consider, living in Louisiana. So the rifle might be called upon for hunting small or medium game to defensive use against desperate people, thugs taking advantage of the situation, and/or looters.

What do you think would be better? .30-30 or .357?

I do indeed have access to a plinking rifle--a 10/22. So I'm fully capable of incredibly cheap practice. So go ahead and suggest the .357/.38, but not if it's because you think that's the only thing I would be able to shoot with. I also know there are heavy loads for .357 suitable for bigger game just like there are light loads of .30-30 for varmints and such.

DECISION:

The .30-30 Winchester. Possibly this Marlin: http://www.impactguns.com/store/026495015107.html

I was reading that quote by Admiral Yamomoto about the posibillity of an invasion on the US. And he said there was a rifleman behind every blade of grass. And a rifle in a pistol cartridge isn't a rifle. I know there are several advantages the .357 has, but the big one is economy and plinking abilities for which I have a Ruger 10/22. The .357 is a big leap from the .22 but not as big of a leap as the .30-30. And of course .30-30 is more expensive, but when I shoot long guns I have to travel quite a distance until I get a membership at a rifle range around me. And .30-30 isn't expensive, it's just not cheap.

But I hereby offer my extreme thanks to everyone that helped. I learned a great deal more about both cartridges, lever rifles, different bullets for different purposes, and rifles in general. You're all hereby awesome.

 

[Legionnaire]

Hunting medium game (or SHTF) = .30-30.
Plinking = .357.

 

[Shawnee]

+1 for what Legionnaire said.

 

[ThomasT]

Mt favorite rifle is my 1894c 357 from Marlin. I have a 44 mag, a 32 mag, two 30-30s and have owned a 45-70. The 357 for my use fits the bill as the best all around rifle. Its shorter than a 10/22 and my Benjemin 22 cal pump air rifle. Its a very handy gun.

It really shines if you hand load. I also cast most of the lead bullets i shoot in my guns. The 30-30 does have more range and is better for shots over a 100 yards. If your watching a deer feeder or a trail where you can set up at 50-60 yards the 357 will do all you want on deer.

Down loaded it works fine for small game and mine shoots .360 round balls very well to 40 or so yards. They would make good squirrel loads. Handloading brings out the best this gun has to offer.

I also have a new Mini-14. I almost didn't buy it because i kept reading they aren't accurate. Thats pure B.S. Mine will hit cantalope sized targets off hand at a hundred yards every shot if i do my part. I prefer this gun over the AR platform.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

.38 specials may or may not feed right, leaving you less than happy. And .30-30 is not *that* much more than .357. Check out federal fusion and other low end .30-30. It's mondo cheap compared to other centerfires.

Much easier to make hits at longer ranges 150 yards plus, and much more effective on game. Matching ammo for handgun and rifle is overplayed, IMO - this day and age, there's no need for the handgun ammo to match. You can still get (and should get) a .357 handgun to go with the rifle, someday. But no reason then or now to castrate your rifle down to handgun power by trying to match the handgun.

Thutty-Thutty is the answer, I think.

Oddly enough, however, a model 92 clone in .357 will be my next levergun (either that or a 92 in .45 colt). But I have a LOT of rifles to fill a LOT of niches - very different situation.

 

[Harve Curry]

For a first rifle then I'd recommend the 30-30. Also learn to reload for it. You can shoot cast lead alloy bullets or jacketed stuff. Consider a rifle configuration with a octagon barrel, either Winchester or a Marlin.

 

[pyle]

Well, I own a lever action Winchester 30-30 and I like it (sort of). Although I don't own a .357 rifle or handgun (yet) - I would choose the 30-30. Works good on deer and pretty much anything else up to about 100 yards effectively. However, my favorite rifle is a bolt action - Remington Model 700. The Remington shoots so well and comfortable that it makes my Winchester look silly. Point is, I would buy the Remington 700 first and Winchester 30-30 later.

 

[ThomasT]

Premiumsauces said the 357 may not feed the 38s. That may be so but mine feeds them just fine. Mine also feeds flat nosed wadcutters if i seat them out of the case a little. The flat nose feeds pretty slick. It surprised me the first time i tried them.

I mentioned the Mini-14 since you said something about the AR being $900.00. I bought mine new for $575.00 + tax 2 months ago.

The 30-30 will most likely be the cheaper of the two if you go with the lever actions. Used 30-30s are common. I have only seen 2 used 357s for sale locally. They were both $300.00 plus.

 

[TX35]

If you're going to buy a rifle, make certain it's in a rifle round!!

 

[Tomcat47]

I vote 1st Gun to be 30-30, and I like the 357, but everyone should have a 30-30.

I think they should hand them out with birth cetificates.

Partial to the Marlins, but Winnies are good too!

 

[Furncliff]

non-issue... .357

more flexibility. .38 spl. cheap good fun, my 1894c shares with a S&W 10.

The .357 is a capable deer caliber, especially when loaded with Buffalo Bore ammo.


18.5 inch Marlin 1894

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast = 1851 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC = 1860 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Speer Uni Core = 2153 fps----
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Speer Uni Core = 2298 fps----



I'd say those speeds qualify the .357 as a rifle round. Maybe it's just me. <shrug>

http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/index.php?board=32.0

 

[MartinS]

For SHTF having a handgun and a rifle in the same caliber would not always be an advantage. Two calibers is twice the chance of finding ammo you can use.
I have an AK, it shoots quick, sure and a lot.
I have a Winchester Model 94, not so quick shooting but it is pretty in the eyes and pretty in the hand.
You have a beautiful choice to make. Whatever you get, learn it and love it.

 

[rbernie]

My first rifle was a 30/30. I shot it a fair bit before succumbing to the lure of the trajectory tables in the hot gun rags and getting a 30-06. Nothing wrong with a 30-06, mind you, but it was a lot more cost and a lot more BLAMMOFLASHENBOOMIN' that accomplished nothing that my 30/30 didn't. I no longer have the 30-06, but I have two 30/30s.

I can still buy a box of 30/30 SP ammo at Academy Sports for $11/box. I can reload it for cheaper still.

The 30/30 is about as all-purpose of a round as you can get; more power than most handgun rounds but not as expensive or intimidating as some of the more popular high-performance rifle chamberings.

I think they should hand them out with birth cetificates

Exactly.
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PS: Marlin's rule.

 

[saturno_v]

30-30 all the way, especially if you want a lever action.
Powerwise it BADLY smokes out a 357 from any possible angle..more than double the muzzle energy, better ballistic coefficient which translates into more retained energy downrange and better sectional density that means better penetration...
At reasonable distance and, most important, with the right bullets there is nothing basically that you cannot take it with it.
Put on it a decent scope with see-through rings....extreme versatility.

The Thutty-Thutty is a real American legend as the 30-06 is.

This is mine:

 

[Squidward]

Exactly

"If you're going to buy a rifle, make certain it's in a rifle round!!"

 

[Brass Rain]

Well the tally stands at somewhere around eight for the .30-30 and four for the .357 and I kind of have to say I'm leaning toward the .30-30 if I pick a lever-action, though I'm still considering things. As for modifications on said rifle--be it .357 or .30-30--what would be useful? At most I'm thinking a stock cuff for spare rounds, a sling, and possibly some fiber-optic sights or perhaps ghost-ring. What mods are common on levers? I don't really think I'd be going for a scope and if so just a small 4x one. I don't want to ruin the famed handiness of the lever-action.

 

[22-rimfire]

I'll go with 30-30 win as first choice under your circumstances. If you had said 44 mag in a lever, I might lean that way over the 30-30 for the reasons you give for the 357.

But, it really depends on the kind of shooting you intend to do. IF you are hunting whitetails, the 30-30 is essentially a 150 yd gun and a proven meat getter. A rifle in 357 mag is probably a 100 yd gun with good shot placement.

If you are mostly looking for a rifle to essentially plink with and occasionally go deer hunting, maybe go with the 357 mag and get the revolver later. It is not a bad combination and should be adequate for whitetails and smaller quarry.

I want the Marlin 1894 in 41 mag myself for woods carry along with one of my Model 57 Smiths. If you can take a whitetail at 100 yds with a 41 mag, you certainly can take one with the same in a rifle.

 

[saturno_v]

You can easily pick a Marlin 336 used in very good conditions for around $200.
Parts available all over.
I strongly suggest a Marlin vs the Winchester 94.
Stronger action and side ejection which makes putting a scope practical and easy (Marlins are already pre-drilled since the 50's).
As I said before, put a scope with see-through rings.
Trust me, you will enjoy your Thutty-Thutty A LOT....

 

[saturno_v]

But, it really depends on the kind of shooting you intend to do. IF you are hunting whitetails, the 30-30 is essentially a 150 yd gun and a proven meat getter. A rifle in 357 mag is probably a 100 yd gun with good shot placement.

The 30-30 is a 200 yd+ deer rifle.
If you use the Hornady Leverevolution ammo (spitzer with polymer tip) it become a 300 yd+ for deer and a elk (and possibly moose with very good shot placement) gun under 200 yd.
The Leverevolution literally put a traditional 30-30 rifle in an other class.

 

[wuchak]

With ammo and component prices going where they are and your stated purpose for the gun I would get the .357. It's very easy to reload for with its rimmed straight cases and for plinking/small game loads uses very little powder vs. the 30-30. If you get a 357 revolver up the road you will have a very nice set of guns that you can reload for with only one set of equipment and components. It's a great place to start.

If you want something more powerful than the .357 but don't want to go to the .308 / 30-06 class of cartridges I would get a Marlin 336 in .35 Remington. It's got more punch than the 30-30 with about the same recoil and if you reload you can use your .357 bullets in it.

Edit: I forgot to ask what .22 you have. If you don't have one then I think your first rifle should be one and I would recommend the Marlin 39a. It's a little more expensive but it's worth it and you will shoot if for the rest of your life and your Grandkids will still be using it long after your gone.

 

[Brian Dale]

.30-30. If you're going to carry a 7 lb. rifle instead of a 2 lb. revolver, then go for the reach of a rifle cartridge. This is coming from a guy who loves .357 Mag revolvers. If you were never going to use it for anything but plinking or cowboy action shooting, that would be different. First rifle? Rifle cartridge.

Next, get a rifle in .22LR to go with it (hey, you asked for advice, and that's mine).

As for modifications on said rifle--be it .357 or .30-30--what would be useful?

Ammo. Lots and lots of ammo. Decide on modifications after you've become one with the rifle and see a particular advantage that you want from an added piece of gear. I have added a butt cuff to mine, but I got used to the rifle first, then decided.

...and Welcome to The High Road.

 

[Brass Rain]

My dad has a Ruger 10/22 that I can use whenever I go to a friend's place where there's lots of empty land to shoot on. And my first gun was a .22 single-action Army clone by Heritage Arms. Of course a piece in it broke so it's not useable right now, but.. I'm covered for .22 LR.

 

[saturno_v]

If you had said 44 mag in a lever, I might lean that way over the 30-30 for the reasons you give for the 357.

The 30-30 outsmokes a 44 Mag lever action carbine too and for the same reasons (more muzzle energy, better BC and SD)...to a lesser extent compared to a 357 but still...

The 35 Remington has just a pinch of more muzzle energy but it has a worse BC and SD compared to the 30-30 so this advantage, very little to begin with, dissolves rapidly....basically the two rounds are identical in their capabilities....and good luck finding a box of 35 Remington at Wal-Mart or other big box sporting goods retail stores....

 

[ThomasT]

It would be used as a general purpose rifle--shooting targets to cans and bottles to possible small game or as a wilderness gun to SHTF situations. Not really for medium-large game hunting, but it's a possibility I guess.

What do you think would be better? .30-30 or .357?

Well Brass Rain it seems that most folks replying to your post have forgotten what you asked for. A plinker, a small game rifle and a SHTF gun. For the SHTF a 30-30 s good. A 357 is better. Lighter ammo, the ability to shoot small game with the right loads and a more overall compact package. If you are worried about its ability to kill i suggest you get a copy of "Rifle Magazine" that has an article by Brian Pearce on the effectivness of the 357. It will give you a whole new outlook on the 357 lever gun.

For longer ranges the 30-30 is the hands down winner and first choice. For versatility the 357 has no equal. I did shoot one rabbit with a 30-30. The rabbit was blown to bits an not fit to eat.

Also, i hope you don't break bottles with whatever you get. Thats a no-no and gives responsible shooters a bad rep.

If you are a new shooter and like lever actions you might consider a 22 lever gun. They are a whole lot cheaper to shoot and do everything you ask for in the original post except work for deer and even then you didn't seem like a deer rifle was your main goal.

I am also surprised no one suggested this. www.leverguns.com

This is the Mecca for lever action shooters.

 

[Brass Rain]

Ratshooter:

I do not doubt the power of the .357 one bit. I know it's a powerful, reliable, proven handgun cartridge that's made even better by adding accuracy and more powder burn time by using it in a lever-gun. But it's also a large bullet with a relatively small charge behind it.

Up to fifty yards I think the .357 would offer better knock-down power, but as it keeps flying it slows down and loses power and accuracy quickly.

I just have to decide if the extra flight time is worth the expense. I don't see myself really, really needing 200 yards + from the rifle, but as my only rifle I feel it would be irresponsible to count on a gun with a limited effective range in a variety of imagineable and unimagineable situations.

But the .357 is incredibly versatile, readily available, and made even more so with the use of .38 Specials.

That's my problem. There's issues of practicality on both sides of the coin.

As for shooting bottles, I mean milk/water jugs, empty soda bottles, etc. not glass ones.