First Rifle - .357 or .30-30

[SSN Vet]

I'm curious just what all the SHTF scenario small game hunters plan on.

Living on Opossum? Raccoon? Maybe a dog or two?

 

[saturno_v]

This is simply not true. The .357, with good ammo, has the SAME muzzle energy as the 30-30 (check out the Buffalo Bore or DoubleTap loads). Add the fact that there are good .357 180 grain hardcast loads moving at 1800 fps, and the .357 appears pretty good, at least out to 100 yards. Beyond 100 yards, true, the 30-30 is better (although most hunting back east is under 100 yards), but it really depends on the purpose of the rifle.

These are specialized loads with specialized powders (and they still sound way too optimistic for me).
I was talking about regular commerical loads.
There are some niche hot 30-30 loads that can get way over 2000 ft/lb..I do not remember the exact numbers but something like close to 2400 or even more.
The 357 has simple half of the case capacity of a 30-30...it is a fact...

P.S.

By the way Buffalobore restrain to publish energies out of a carbine barrel...they say "supercedes 30-30 energies" but they do not show the numbers...is more a marketing ploy than anything else...

 

[ECVMatt]

I don't get the .357 = .30-30 thing..

Here is some info from Reminton. It is just plain ole .30-30 ammo
Cartridge Information
Index Number Cartridge Type Weight (grs.) Bullet Style Primer No. Ballistic Coefficient
R30302 Remington® Express® 170 Soft Point Core-Lokt® 9 1/2 0.254
Velocity (ft/sec)
Cartridge Type Bullet Muzzle 100 200 300 400 500
Remington® Express® 170 SP CL 2200 1895 1619 1381 1191 1061
Energy (ft-lbs)
Cartridge Type Bullet Muzzle 100 200 300 400 500
Remington® Express® 170 SP CL 1827 1355 989 720 535 425
Short-Range Trajectory
Cartridge Type Bullet 50 100 150 200 250 300
Remington® Express® 170 SP CL 0.3 zero -2.7 -8.3 -17.1 -29.9
Long-Range Trajectory
Cartridge Type Bullet 100 150 200 250 300 400 500
Remington® Express® 170 SP CL 1.8 zero -4.6 -12.6 -24.5 -62.6 -125.3


I don't see how a 180 .357 at 1800 FPS is equal to a 170 .30-30 at 2200 FPS.

All that being said, I think a .357 would be a great choice for you Brass. I have leverguns in several calibers, and really enjoy my .357. I think you will too. I would add a set of XS Ghost Ring sights and leave the rest of the stuff off. If you are set on a bullet carrier for the stock, look at the bioflex ones from TC, they are great.

Good Luck and have fun.

Matt

 

[saturno_v]

ECVMATT

Probably with overpressure and specialized powder some niche ammo manufacturer can get interesting numbers out of a .357 (still not on par with a regular 30-30)
But if you take the official spec numbers, a 30-30 case has double the powder capacity, if not more, compared to a 357 and the 357 operates at 35.000 PSI against 42.000 for the 30-30..

Roscoe..you do the math....

You can definitely kill a deer with a 357 carbine, no doubt about it, but the two rounds are in a total different class..

 

[Brian Dale]

Sorry, saturno_v, I'm with Shawnee on the see-through scope rings. For me, any scope on a lever rifle needs to be as low as possible. See-through scope rings suck slimy, swimmer's-itch-infested pond water and spray it down the back of your neck.

 

[saturno_v]

Sorry, saturno_v, I'm with Shawnee on the see-through scope rings. For me, any scope on a lever rifle needs to be as low as possible. See-through scope rings suck slimy, swimmer's-itch-infested pond water and spray it down the back of your neck.

I do not hunt or cross a pond holding my rifle....

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

I'm curious just what all the SHTF scenario small game hunters plan on.

Living on Opossum? Raccoon? Maybe a dog or two?

Yes, yes, and yes. Anything that moves. Tweety birds, anything. If you're hunting for your subsistence life, it would all taste good and provide nourishment.

A .22 mag or .38 special carbine would be about the perfect small game subsistence rifle. Big enough to take small deer with a good shot. Small enough to not destroy too much meat on small-medium tasty mammals & birds.

+1 on hating those cheesy see-through ring/base combos that a lot of people put on leverguns. A scope should be as low as possible if it's the primary sighting system, espec. on a handy woods gun like a levergun, where close shots are the norm, and a high scope makes you hit low under 30 yards.

suck slimy, swimmer's-itch-infested pond water and spray it down the back of your neck.

Hmmmm, kaaaay - that's ONE way to put it.

I don't see how a 180 .357 at 1800 FPS is equal to a 170 .30-30 at 2200 FPS.

They're not, but besides that, even if that was considered "roughly equal", please go compare the price of the premium Buff Bore ammo that actually achieves those numbers in a .357, vs. the low cost of plain old .30-30 that does it easily.

 

[saturno_v]

Yes, yes, and yes. Anything that moves. Tweety birds, anything. If you're hunting for your subsistence life, it would all taste good and provide nourishment.

A .22 mag or .38 special carbine would be about the perfect small game subsistence rifle. Big enough to take small deer with a good shot. Small enough to not destroy too much meat on small-medium tasty mammals & birds.
Today 10:23 AM

Thanks!!!

Very very good point...you just offered me the best excuse to finally buy that 22!!!!....I warn you, my wife is gonna "love" you..eheheh.:D

However for very small game you have more chances with a shotgun....I'm already covered in that regard.....

 

[Brian Dale]

Hmmmm, kaaaay - that's ONE way to put it.

Hey, it's a metaphor. saturno_v seems to have enjoyed it, and that was my goal. Oh, and:

...you just offered me the best excuse to finally buy that 22!!!!....I warn you, my wife is gonna "love" you...

saturno_v, your wife will probably swipe it from you and be delighted.

 

[SG1]

I say screw it, get a Marlin 450 lever action guide gun. It should prepare you for anything.

 

[Brass Rain]

Thanks again, everyone, for all your insight. There are a gret many good points to both cartridges here, though something rbernie said struck a chord with me:

"If, on the other hand, you get something that maybe is a bit more expensive on a shell-for-shell basis but which has a broader performance envelope, you're likely to find that you start exploring that envelope more fully. That's been my experience, anyway."

And I do have access to a .22 rifle for plinking and small game. So my gaze is temporarily on the .30-30 again. Not to say that couldn't change in the next ten minutes...

EDIT: Also, what could I expect from recoil from either cartridge in a lever-gun?

 

[Brian Dale]

Here's a handy recoil chart that lists both cartridges out of a ~7-lb. rifle.

It shows the .30-30 with a bit more than twice the recoil energy of the .357, but they're both tolerable.

 

[paintballdude902]

i would go with the .357

just for the fact that first rifle you will want to do alot of target shooting to get good and .357/.38special is cheaper than .30-30

if you want to hunt deer just keep it under 100 yrds

 

[skinewmexico]

If you're going to get a rifle, don't give up that advantage by buying a pistol caliber.

 

[Pine Cone]

Nematocyst...

When we get to reloading, we're getting more real.

So, suppose you were part of a nomadic group, moving away from natural disaster, carrying carbines in the .30 range.

Which of those reloading setups would you carry?

The standard answer, none of the above.

I haven't got one of these, but will be buying one soon to leave out at the cabin I am building this summer. This seems to be a good mix of cost and production for minimal space. Add $$ for a 3 or 4 die set in the appropriate caliber(s), a powder scale (the cheap Lee Safety Powder Scale works well), the Lee Improved Powder Measure kit, a reloading block (holds the rounds neatly and safely while you work on them), and a reloading book, and you are probably sitting at about $100-125 for the whole setup.

Just add cartridges, primers, powder and bullets...

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=624416&t=11082005

Might be the best bang for buck out there for pistol rounds. I have heard that using it to resize rifle rounds can take a bit of effort...

Check out this article on reloading the .357 for leverguns.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_12_50/ai_n6275756

The .357 Magnum is not the equal of the 30-30, but at shorter distances it will kill small and medium 4-legged and 2-legged animals just as dead. At longer distances the 30-30 is better, but then so is a 30-06 or a 300 Magnum or a 45-70 or a...

If you want a gun to SHOOT, get the 1894C and 3000 rounds of ammo and practice! I'm still working on getting to be a decent shot with a rifle, but my revolver and semi-auto pistol shooting got a lot better when I shot at least 500 rounds a month for half a year.

I love my 30-30 and 30-06, but I shoot my 22s and my 1894C more because I can afford to.

The gun you shoot the best is probably the gun you shoot the most..

 

[wuchak]

A Black and Decker Workmate makes a dandy portable reloading bench. I use mine on my deck to deprime in the sunshine. At the gun club I clamp my press (mounted to a piece of 2x6) to a regular old folding banquet table and it works just fine.

 

[goon]

Since you have access to a .22, I'd also go for the 30-30.
Along with increased range, the 30-30 also offers better penetration.
Face it: a 170 grain 30 caliber bullet is more needle-like than a 180 grain .357 bullet. It will be going faster from a 30-30 rifle than the 180 grain bullet will from a .357 rifle.
According to these guys ( http://www.gunblast.com/MilesFortis-AKChurch_BuffaloBore.htm ) you can expect to get about 1800 FPS from the buffalo bore stuff from a typical .357 carbine. You're still short of the smaller diameter, longer .30 caliber bullet by about 400 fps.
My point?
If you ever anticipate the need to potentially shoot through light cover, automobiles, or possibly body armor, the 30-30 is superior.
And with 25" of drop at 300 yards for 170 grain bullets, 30-30 loads are still shooting flat enough to walk them in out to 300 yards if need be.
Some will argue that idea - OK for them. As for me, if lead is singing past me at that range I'm not going to be hanging around to sift through the dirt so I can examine the bullets and note that they're RNSP's that probaby came from a "puny" 30-30.
With a .357, even with wind at your back and pixies helping to carry your bullets to the target, you'd be lobbing them at 200 yards and seriously deficient at 300 yards. I'm not saying hits couldn't be made at that range with it - Elmer Keith did amazing things with revolvers at long range. But I'm saying that I'm no Elmer Keith so I'd need a rifle that would help make up for that.
Out of your choices and even on it's own merits alone, the old 30-30 is a pretty good cartridge. http://www.remington.com/Products/Ammunition/Ballistics/ )
Compare it to some other rounds and see what you think.

A .38 special load is a better choice for small game in a SHTF scenario, but a .22 handgun with a brick of good ammunition beats the snot out of both in the unlikely event that you manage to get a shot at some furry critter that one of your intensely hungry neighbors hasn't already shot.
Better still - spend $50 on rice, spam, and bottled water.
The .22 is also very versatile and underestimated - standard .22 40 grain LRN's will shoot through both sides of the passenger compartment of a car more often than not in my experience. They're also accurate enough to make hits on a football sized target well past 100 yards if you have even the slightest cooperation from the wind.
It may not seem like much when you're shooting it, but don't make the mistake of underestimating the .22LR. At the very least, a CCI mini-mag smacking into a wall a few feet from a looter should be enough to encourage him to move on.


Since you have a .22, this is a moot point, but you can still get a new Savage at Walmart for about $120.
My suggestion would be to buy a used 30-30 and about 15 boxes of ammo. That gets you a good rifle and 300 rounds of ammo (100 to shoot and 200 to store) for a little over $400.
Spend another $200 on a .22 (in your case you can skip this but others may read this thread later) and all the ammo you can get.
For about $600 you should have defense (along with offense if that is part of your defense) to 300 yards, medium game hunting, nostalgia, practicality, small game hunting, and plinking/practice covered and you should have enough ammunition to feel somewhat "secure" if you ever need to use your guns for anything serious.
Although a case can be made for the .357 carbine covering most of those bases, initial investment will probably be somewhere over $400 for the rifle alone. I've only ever seen one used .357 lever action for sale and it was close to $400 - and that was about 5 years ago. I see used 30-30's, some with scopes, for less than $300 all the time. I could have one tomorrow for about $250.

Also, if you can't afford that much ammo at once, spend just a little more than you can afford on ammo. Then start filling up an ammo can two boxes or so at a time. It won't take long to get about 200-300 rounds.
Some won't feel secure with less than 10 times that. But it is at least something and it's a practical amount of ammunition that nearly anyone can afford. It's also easily transported in case you have to grab the rifle and ammo can, jump in your car, and flee for your life from the next Hurricane.

Just my $.02.

 

[roscoe]

Probably with overpressure and specialized powder some niche ammo manufacturer can get interesting numbers out of a .357 (still not on par with a regular 30-30)

Not to hijack the thread, but you won't get too far doubting Buffalo Bore's numbers. The only specialty 30-30 ammo with improved performance, as far as I know, is Hornady LeverEvolution, and that has 160 grain loads at 2400 fps. Still, the Buffalo Bore .357 ammo has 158 grain slugs at 2150, not far off those higher 30-30 numbers. Sure, Buffalo Bore and Doubletap is expensive, but still less than LeverEvolution.

Additionally, LeverEvolution in .357 is on its way, with an improved ballistic coefficient. Now, Buffalo Bore is coming out with 30-30 ammo, and maybe it will blow everything away, but until that time, the question is still debatable.

Finally, the .357 ammo variety is much wider than 30-30, with light .38 ammo for plinking, up to 200 grain hardcast for boar. When you add the fact that the .357 lever gun can be more compact (the 1892 action is very compact), have a greater capacity, and can shoot very cheap .38 ammo for plinking, there is a very good argument for the .357.

Believe me, math is my game.

 

[Brass Rain]

Useful two cents at that, goon, thank you. And to believe a few minutes ago I thought I had decided on .357 in stead. But you bring up good points.

For a moment I was liking the idea of the increased round capacity offered by the .357 and the lower fear of penetration. But the penetration thing is a double-edged sword. Sometimes penetration is dangerous to those around you. Sometimes you need it. Blah.

I was also thinking I would be able to stock and carry .357 a lot more easily then .30-30 (a box of 50 .357s for less than a box of 20 .30-30s).

But twenty-five inches of drop at 300 yards? Isn't that a lot? You would have to aim two feet over the target to hit it? I mean it doesn't sound undoable but still...

Not that I'm disagreeing with you about the .30-30's superiority. You make a lot of good points. Once again the pendulum swings.

EDIT: Oh, and the current tally is something like nine votes for the .357 and seventeen votes for the .30-30. I really should have added a poll...

 

[saturno_v]

Not to hijack the thread, but you won't get too far doubting Buffalo Bore's numbers. The only specialty 30-30 ammo with improved performance, as far as I know, is Hornady LeverEvolution, and that has 160 grain loads at 2400 fps. Still, the Buffalo Bore .357 ammo has 158 grain slugs at 2150, not far off those higher 30-30 numbers. Sure, Buffalo Bore and Doubletap is expensive, but still less than LeverEvolution.

Additionally, LeverEvolution in .357 is on its way, with an improved ballistic coefficient. Now, Buffalo Bore is coming out with 30-30 ammo, and maybe it will blow everything away, but until that time, the question is still debatable.

Finally, the .357 ammo variety is much wider than 30-30, with light .38 ammo for plinking, up to 200 grain hardcast for boar. When you add the fact that the .357 lever gun can be more compact (the 1892 action is very compact), have a greater capacity, and can shoot very cheap .38 ammo for plinking, there is a very good argument for the .357.

Believe me, math is my game.

Roscoe

Trust me, math is my game too..

Numbers for numbers: SAAMI Specs for the 357 Magnum: 35.000 psi, for the 30-30 WInchester: 42.000 psi
Case capacity is double for the 30-30...you do the math

Winchester ammo get 1830 fps with a 158 gr out of a 18.5 inches barrel
Federal get 1550 fps with a 180 gr out of a 18.5 barrel

Buffalo Bore claims 2153 fps with a 158 gr out of the same 18.5 barrel (a jump of 323 fps) and 1851 with a 180 gr (a jump of 301 fps)

Either:

1) The Buffalo Bore .357 loads are significantly overpressure

2) Federal and Winchester .357 loads are significantly underpressure.

3) Way too much optimistic numbers.

4) Whatever black magic Buffalo Bore applies to their ammo (special powders, whatever), if they do the same to a 30-30 load (seems imminent from their web page) the original big difference would be re-established.

If you stay within SAAMI specs there is no way that a 357 could get even close to a 30-30 in terms of ballistics.

By the way, Grizzly Cartridges claims 2400 fps with their new 170 gr 30-30 load out of a carbine barrel, I did talk with their technician 2 weeks ago.

I just checked the extensive Hodgdon reload data center http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp for both rounds (rifle use for the .357)...going from the lightest loads to very hot loads with various powders...the numbers just don't add up, the 30-30 outsmoke very badly the 357 (and the 44 Mag for that matter) in any possible way...it uses on average double the quantity of powder....honestly I don't know what Buffalo Bore does to get that kind of claimed performance out of a .357...

 

[wuchak]

Federal and Winchester are under pressure. Buffalo Bore just loads the .357 like it was designed to be loaded and that slow powder makes good use of the extra barrel length.

Taking game at 200 yards was not part of your original requirements. How many times are you really going to take a shot this long at game with any rifle unless you after varmints. If that's what you want to hunt then you should be looking at something like a .243 bolt gun. The .357 meets all your original requirements and is a much better gun for SHTF scenarios due to the ability to carry more rounds in the same space.

In a true SHTF scenario where there is a need to harvest game to survive you'll feed yourself a lot better with a coil of wire to make snares then with a firearm. Plus the snares are silent so they don't attract attention.

 

[rbernie]

If you stay withing SAAMI specs there is no way that a 357 could get even close to a 30-30 in terms of ballistics.

And that's a fact. You can find 357 ammo that's loaded over-spec. You can find 30/30 ammo that's loaded under spec. But there is no possible way for 357 to equal 30/30 in power when both are loaded to spec.

 

[Z_Infidel]

Sure, Buffalo Bore and Doubletap is expensive, but still less than LeverEvolution.

Buffalo Bore lists their 158 gr .357Mag ammo (the product they compare to the .30-30) at $23.09 per box of 20. You can buy LeverEvolution ammo for $16-$18 per box of 20.

And I'm not knocking Buffalo Bore, I think they're a good company making good products.

 

[22-rimfire]

I have read every post. Actually a fun thread. The better choice with limited hunting for you is the 357 in a rifle. The SHTF issue over rides serious consideration for the 30-30 unless you already have one. I am modifying my orginal recommendation. The 30-30 is a 150 yd or closer gun just like a 22LR in a rifle is a 50-75 yd gun, no matter what anyone tells you. You can shoot further, and yes you can kill a deer at 200 yds or further with the 30-30 and you can easily shoot 22LR at 100 yds. But that (200 yd gun) is not the gun you're looking for now. The power for most 30-30 commercial loadings far exceed the 357, but you don't need the power. But you might need the shell capacity in the 357 rifle.

A 22LR would do 90% of what you are looking for and would be just fine for SHTF except for a herd of drug crazed loonies or a charging bear intent on killing you. Lets not forget all the foraging zoo animals after a hurricane. The 22LR may be whimpy, but they work just fine. Works real well on polecats, possom, and tweety birds too!

Vermin control and possible elimination after a hurricane; that is the problem.

 

[saturno_v]

The 30-30 is a 150 yd or closer gun

Sorry but it is not true.
A 30-30 is a 200+ yd gun in decent hands...not excellent, just decent...

I know he doesn;t need a 200 yd gun but just to clarify...