FN's 5.7x28 cartridge and "Five-Seven" handgun... anyone

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Ironbarr

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have one - or real experience with one?

Background: My "VA - "Cop-Killer" Gun: Horror or Hype?" post, http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=137772 - I emailed the author re my thoughts about the "banning" movement of this platform. He replied today.

Mike Mather is one of our hardest-working and most forthwith reporters now working in investigative mode. His work is responsible reporting. In the case of his report re the FN "Five-Seven" I took him to task somewhat as I read too much anti into the piece.

In his reply, he acknowledged his contact with those antis in the report to glean information; he also reminded me he had talked with a pro-gun contact - also named in the piece.

The impetus for his work was the bill offered in congress and its warning of danger to LE personnel re capability of the 5.7x28 (SS192 & SS196) to penetrate Level II & IIIA vests.

He indicates that he really wants to find real proof that the SS196 non-AP, and allowed for import/mfr, won't - WON'T - defeat the usual vests. Apparently the FN report left questions. He asked if I had any ideas on how to find out. Frankly, I'm not learned enough of the subject, so I ask you:

Where can I find sources beyond FN to prove the SS196 won't defeat typical LE vests?

Have you or anyone, or company/laboratory you know of conducted a fully defensible test?

Are you or anyone, or company/laboratory you know willing to conduct such a test?

I'm all ears - or, as the case is, eyes.

Thanks for your attention and interest.

AndyB
Ironbarr
 
Is it really our job to "prove" that the arms of the militia are less effective than the arms of the agents of the state?

To engage the discussion at that level is to beg the premise that there's something WRONG with civilians posession of handguns capable of defeating armor, or that it is right and just that the agents of the state hold a statuatorily enforced technological advantage.

At the end of the day, that's precisely the nature of the beast: To prevent the armed citizenry from achieving parity or superiority over a similiar number of armed agents of the state.

It's very much like the colonial arms trade with indigenous peoples: The technology offered in trade was at least a generation behind, and no field artillery was ever placed on the table.


Sorry, it's just not a game I'm interested in.
 
Isn't there some BATFE test that showed the hollowpoint 5.7 rounds wouldn't penetrate some (I forget which level) of armor? After all, AP handgun rounds are currently banned by BATFE, so they'd be the ones to check out penetration claims.
 
I was going to make a long a protracted reply to this post - but geekwitha.45 took the words out of my mouth (or off my keyboard...).


The fact that the 5.7 round can or cannot penetrate "armor" is entirely irrelevent - I am shamed and amazed that every day people who talk about protecting personal freedoms are more than happy to go along with arming authoritarian factions with newer and more extreme arms and methods while accepting new limitations on civilian means.

The issue is not wheter one form of authority is "better" than the other - but rather that all authority should be questioned and held at arms length.

For some reason shooters thing it is fine that police agency's should have access to all forms of weaponry - from UMP's to TMP's, all the way to M249's and belt fed RPD's chambered in 7.62x54R. For orginizations that are routinely found to be corrupt, filled with criminals other malcontents people in the shooting community willingly turn a blind eye to the building militirizing of our police forces - just think back to the 1950's: the FBI was an orginization of the finest detectives and law enforcement officers in the nation, now, it is a psuedo-constitutional para-military band of commando's who break down doors and shoot before they investigate.

Even though our police agencies and the gun-shy crowd are telling the world that 5.7 ammo will penetrate 6 inches of carbon steel it *does not matter* - it is not our responsibility to prove that we are not a band of thugs and criminals - because WE ARE NOT - hypothetical street combat situations are not enough to pick and choose which personal freedoms we are *allowed* to have.
 
To engage the discussion at that level is to beg the premise that there's something WRONG with civilians posession of handguns capable of defeating armor, or that it is right and just that the agents of the state hold a statuatorily enforced technological advantage.
Click to expand...

Well said, (although I'd have used "yield to" rather than "beg.")
 
The good military ammo is aluminum and steel core and has a muzzle velocity of about 2300fps. The SS196 is supposed to have a plastic tip and only 1500fps. Isn't that close to a hot .357 mag or 10mm round? It shouldn't penetrate anything a .357 mag won't.
 
I think it would be more instructive to demonstrate to this reporter that grandpappy's old 30-06 will zip right through most vests worn today.
 
Sorry boofus but the logics off. The 57 is a lot thinner so it will penetrate better than a .357 because of the smaller profile. But the real answer is, who cares? Jock rock has hit the nail on the head in that most any rifle will penetrate body armor. 30-06? Hell, 30-30 will do it. Any of the pistols in .223 will do it.

The point is that bullet proof vests aren't really bullet proof. They are RESISTANT to pentration up to a certain degree. The thicker the vest the better but to resist a rifle round you have to move up to level IV and thats stuffs really heavy and only designed to take a single hit. And you'll still be hurt'n from that.

Guess what. There's another pistol out there that will pop right through body armor just like the FN 57. About the same size, magazine fed, and deadly! And unlike the 57 it's available at every gun show in the country with cheap ammo to boot. The name of this wonder gun? Your good old CZ 52. A 9mm high velocity round that in theory will do more damage than the 57 since it fires a much larger round. Old, beat up, surplus pistol. My local store has them for about $150. I did a review of the 57 after I bought one for livejournal and did a picture comparison and they are almost the exact same size.

So if you are worried about the big bad FN57 being used against body armor then worry no more. We've had a pistol that would do that for the last 50 years.
 
Where can I find sources beyond FN to prove the SS196 won't defeat typical LE vests?
Click to expand...


Well considering that the SS196 is not even on the market yet ( and it keeps getting put off ) that question is going to be left unanswered for quite some time!


Have you or anyone, or company/laboratory you know of conducted a fully defensible test?
Click to expand...

Yup! http://www.ammolab.com/page/page/1613326.htm Look for the 5.7 link at the bottom of the right hand side.


Are you or anyone, or company/laboratory you know willing to conduct such a test?
Click to expand...

I have a 5&7 pistol and some of the different types of ammo but I do not have the funds nor the equipment to conduct such a proper test!


It's sad that it took almost 10 posts for Ironbarr to get his three main questions answered before opinions were stated. Just my two cents.
 
Having personally shot a 5.7mm, most posters are missing it's best quality: low recoil. Muzzle rise is minimal, hits are duplicatable. Hits count, always have.

In what seems to be a losing battle, I agree with the previous poster who commented about civillian versus military difference weaponry. I should be entrusted with more efficient weaponry. After all, there's a domestic war on.
 
epijunkie67 said:
Your good old CZ 52. A 9mm high velocity round that in theory will do more damage than the 57 since it fires a much larger round.
Click to expand...
I thought it was 7.62x25mm
 
Daniel - I would say you should look into David Irving and his libel suit against Deborah Lipstadt. In her book "Denying the Holocaust" she, accurately, pointed Irving out to be a disreputable scholar whose scholarship had been tainted by hs political affiliations and admirations for the third reich.

Irving took Lipstadt to court in England for libel claiming she had falsely damaged his career. More than once Lipstadt had been given the chance to "debate" Irving in various forums on the veracity of the Holocaust but in the end she decided not to. Reason being that by giving those opinions open and honest forums, you mistakenly set up their legitimacy.

????? is still ????? and deserves to be treated accordingly. Shooters have been cowed into believeing that they are all potential homicidal maniacs that need to PROVE themselves to be decent people - just the opposite, we're normal fellows, and we've done nothing wrong. The gun-shy crowd will have to actually make such worthwhile and reasonable arguements before we should bother to even acknowledge them.
 
The whole fiasco should serve to demonstrate how completely DEVOID of issues the anti-gun forces currently are.

They just HAVE to find some hyperbole-laden, embellished account of some "UberKopKiller" weapon in order to up their donations and buy more politician's votes.

They have been getting handed loss after loss and the groups survive only at the pleasure of deep-pocketed Idealogues who write fat checks when riled.

Nothing to see here, the proof will set the 5.7 free.

I'd rather buy 7 CZ 52s anyway.

D.
AZEX
 
do you remember the court house shooting in texas a few months ago? If I remember his name was mark wilson ( if wrong let me know ) who tried to stop a nut with a ak and body armor from killing another person. rounds that can defeat body armor might of kept him alive. since the bad guys can get armor, why cant the good guys (us) get bad guy stopping ammo?
 
The owner of a gunstore I frequent keeps a 5.7 with him as "store security". Anyway, he told me his would shoot through all the body armour he had, even using the hp ammo.
Like others have pointed out, though, so what?
a) Other guns will, too; and
b) Private citizens deserve the ability to defend themselves from law-breakers, be they garden-variety thugs or government agents (and this is coming from someone who is very pro-LE).

-David
 
Well, there it is...

another legitimate enquiry into a technical subject gone sour by folks who don't want to participate in seeking the truth of the matter.

Now hear this - it's my thread, so to speak, and I'm looking for a decent way to prove that the FN Five-Seven is not a cop-killer pistol as some antis have managed to convince a number of congress folks that it is.

Philosophies aside, I'd appreciate your read and if you have something of the subject to offer please do so.

The following is the intro to legislation working to ban the "Five-Seven" - the link to Thomas gets the rest of the story.

109th CONGRESS

1st Session

H. R. 1136
To protect the Nation's law enforcement officers by banning the Five -seveN Pistol and 5.7 x 28mm SS190 and SS192 cartridges, testing handguns and ammunition for capability to penetrate body armor, and prohibiting the manufacture, importation, sale, or purchase of such handguns or ammunition by civilians.


IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

March 7, 2005
Mr. ENGEL (for himself and Mr. KENNEDY of Rhode Island) introduced the following bill; which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

A BILL
To protect the Nation's law enforcement officers by banning the Five -seveN Pistol and 5.7 x 28mm SS190 and SS192 cartridges, testing handguns and ammunition for capability to penetrate body armor, and prohibiting the manufacture, importation, sale, or purchase of such handguns or ammunition by civilians.
Click to expand...
http://thomas.loc.gov/ Search key word: PLEA Act.

And, as my sig indicates, situational awareness applies to politics too; you might want to browse on the following , which I'm sure is being talked about elsewhere on this board...
http://thomas.loc.gov/ Search phrase: Assault Weapon Ban -
notice there are three versions.

AndyB
Ironbarr
 
I think the fact that the anti's are LYING about the 5.7's vest-penetrating ability with civilian-available ammunition does need to be aired. Unlike the holocaust-deniers, which have almost no following, a majority of the voting public are gun-404 enough to fall for the prohibitionist drivel about the 5.7 being able to penetrate level IIIA armor, or a .50 BMG being able to shoot down a jetliner at 4 miles (or 400 yards, for that matter). Arguing "But civilians should be able to own handguns that can penetrate vests/rifles that can shoot down planes" misses the point that the prohibitionists are LYING and need to be called on it, IMO. Pointing out to non-gunnies that the prohibitionists are lying about the technical issues involved is not "legitimizing" the prohibitionists in the public square; it DE-legitimizes them.
 
Not to rehijack the thread, but.....
>quote> just think back to the 1950's: the FBI was an orginization of the finest detectives and law enforcement officers in the nation, now, it is a psuedo-constitutional para-military band of commando's who break down doors and shoot before they investigate.


Um no.

It was a political terror operation run by two mad men, One a transvestite and the other a homosexual fear monger both of whom spent every waking minute trying to find political and personal dirt on anyone who might possibly think to out the fact that they had done very little real police work or had made the country any safer. Do a FOIA search on just about anyone you can name from that period of time and the FBI has a file on them, who they met, who they slept with, what they like to do with there spare time any political statement they might make, I have read the files on a few people and there was little if any crime fighting going on in the FBI.

and now back to the previously sponsored thread.

I have no idea how to rate a vest, i would suppose that the GAO or CBO has some standard that they list that would allow a vest to be designated as a level II or Level IIa or whatever as they have paid for vests in the past as part of clinton cops or someother bill. find that protocol and then find some one who has a vest to donate, and then try to duplicate the protocol. A vest manufacturer I am sure can inform you of the test provisions but i would not tell them you are looing to duplicate the test, that might send them packing, not helping. A local PD might have a rejected or used vest that they might let you have, I know of one person who got one locally from the PD after it had been slashed with a knife, It was given to him to post in a store window as a fund raiser for more money for better vests. The slashing would not have affected the restof the vest away from the cut area. That would have made a decent test subject.
 
Okay, anyone want to do a test?

News is NEWs - before this gets cold on the back burner this reporter is still looking for someone, some way to set up a test that will prove, one way or the other, the caliber/bullet/vest - like "without exception or caveat, the FiveseveN is or is not a weapon to be banned" (for whatever political/safety reason).

Within reason, (details and parameters defined and agreed) he said he'd foot the bill.

Anyone?

-AndyB
 
The supply of SS192 ammo has practically dried up now. Dealers and individuals that have a few boxes are charging $1-2 per round. The new lower powered ammo is out but costs roughly $.33 a round.
 
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