FN Five-seveN 5.7 for $1000 loan?

[GregGry]

(((((and the DA would probably burn you for defending yourself with a gun that was specifically designed to penetrate body armor.)))))

Not this again. The fact you used a 5.7 round or a 500 smith in a shoot can't be used to determine if you were justified in your actions in a court. Everyone should feel free to use odd calibers such as the 5.7 without fear of being found guilty by caliber choice.




My take on the five seven:

The good:
Low recoil
Shoots nice
accurate
Handles nice

The bad:
Expensive
Very questionable performance
Loud rapport for its size
Its not very compact (Might be a good thing because a shoter barrel would mean even worse ballistics performance)


Overall I like the pistol, however there are way too many issues with it for me to own one. The ss190 ammo is near impossible to find (an questionable when it comes to legality when using it in a handgun), not to mention expensive. The 195 rounds would be the way to go (out of the avaliable ammo), however I have yet to see a ballistics test that show anything better then a mediocre result. Brassfetcher did a test with the pistol and the p90, and for some strange reason the p90 only pulled around 100fps more and little to no penetration increase. I don't doubt that the 5.7 round could be leathal, however every shread of evidence I have seen on the rounds performance don't put it in the .45/40/9mm league.

You will get your money back with the pistol. Even if you take a 50 to 100$ hit to sell it fast, you have to ask yourself is it worth it to have money in the hand or nothing at all?

 

[General Geoff]

I'd definitely take your friend up on the offer, but then again I've sorta been looking for an excuse to buy a Five-seveN.

Even if you decide you don't like the pistol, you could pretty easily get $1k for it in the next few months.

 

[punkndisorderly]

I think the way I would look at is this: what's the likelyhood of you actually ever seeing the $1000? A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush and all that.

I'd take the gun as collateral. Tell him you'll take the gun, but that you still expect your money and will return it when the debt is paid in full. Use of the pistol will count as interest.

 

[Hatchbm]

Thank you all for the information and your opinions. I really appreciate it. I think I had decided to do it as soon as he mentioned it, you know? A friend in need and all. But I didn't know anything about this pistol or it's reputation. I would gladly accept a 50-200 loss if I decide to resale it, no big deal. And, it sounds like a cool novelty to own one, even for short while.

I've watched a couple of videos of women shooting them, showing how little recoil there is. But it is a loud little round, LOL!

Thanks again for all the adice, I like this forum and the very mature reponses. I am very impressed.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Elite ammunition?
I'll just keep reloading.

Me too, my point isn't that Elite Ammo is the greatest thing ever, it's that the ammo from FN can be improved greatly.

All these things you see posted about the 5.7's showing in various test results are done with FN ammo, relatively weak stuff.

In particular, articles like
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19913

are intentionally misleading for non LE folks looking into the round because all that research was done with the SS190 projectile which is
a) primarily designed to defeat body armor and
b) unavailable for non LE anyway.

All of this data is almost 10 years old now, no one has looked at the new 5.7 ammo that's out there.

 

[jdh]

Location and the right buyer also play into the what is it worth game. One sold in the local store here last week for $1250 that was in similar condition to the one described and the guy that bought it thought he got a good deal.

 

[DigMe]

intentionally misleading

I have followed Dr. Roberts and Dr. Facklers research and writings for many years and I have never seen any evidence or even accusations that they are lying (AKA "intentionally misleading"). All men are fallible and you could have some prtty good arguments about why you would disagree with those conclusions but to make a decisive statement about what someone's intentions are and to accuse some of the foremost terminal ballistics experts in the world of lying is irresponsible and unreasonable.

 

[TexasRifleman]

I have followed Dr. Roberts and Dr. Facklers research and writings for many years and I have never seen by reasonable evidence or even accusations that they are lying (AKA "intentionally misleading").

It is intentionally misleading because, as I said, it's 10 year old research on a bullet that you cannot buy yet it's posted everywhere as if it is the end all and be all of the 5.7x28 data. It is not. It is one test on one bullet design.

In the article I reference above, the last line is

Bottom line—what does the P90 offer that is not already available?

Well, since the author only tested one bullet type that question has not been answered has it? And why only test one bullet and loading when there are at least 6 different viable defensive loads available on the market.

They keep testing the SS190 which, being AP, performs very poorly in these kinds of tests as do most AP rounds.

And I have no idea if "DocGKR" is Roberts but there's a post, from 2008, quoting these 10 year old tests again.

You wouldn't say that is misleading? Whether the research itself is factual and accurate or not doesn't really matter. The spin is clear.

Look at the photo in the article? We are shown a 5.7FMJ next to an expanded 9mm JHP. Well that's a shock, a JHP expands more than an FMJ. Unbiased research here again I guess?

The source for all this stuff is :

--Roberts G: “Preliminary Evaluation of the Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 23 Grain FMJ Bullet Fired by the New FN P-90 , Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant”, AFTE Journal. 30(2):326-329, Spring 1998.

And from Fackler we have

-Fackler M: "More on the Bizarre Fabrique National P-90", Wound Ballistic Review. 3(1):44-45; 1997.

Bizarre? Is that a new scientific term used by neutral parties engaged in research now? I must have missed the memo

And the other one:

--Hayes C: “Personal Defense Weapons—Answer in Search of a Question”, Wound Ballistic Review. 5(1):30-36; Spring 2001.

Read the titles of these things. These are neutral scientific data with names like this? These all sound very much like papers with an agenda to me.

Why haven't any of these people looked at the 5.7x28 alternative loadings?

The alternative loadings may be horrible, we don't know, so dismissing the 5.7x28 completely would not be accurate either.

 

[DigMe]

Like I said above - you could have some good arguments in rebuttal to the studies but saying that someone is being dishonest with zero proof is taking it too far. If you read the reasons for the conclusions from the studies some of them would apply to any ammo in this caliber. They are inherent flaws of the caliber itself. I think it's probably a good round for small varmint hunting though.

I would be open to checking out some solid testing of this new ammo as long as it is based in the scientific process and follows solid methodology. Even though we disagree I can see where you're coming from.

Regarding the titles of the articles: my wife is a physician and I sometimes see similarly titled articles in her medical journals. The titles generally reflect the authors opinion of the test results, not a pre-existing bias.

 

[Storm]

There have been some statements regarding the possible illegality of the 5.7 round. I know of no laws, certainly Federal, and neither state or local, that make this round illegal. The sales by FN of the armor-piercing SS190 round is restricted to LE personnel only, but the possession of the round itself is not illegal (although I couldn't say as to states like California). Auctions for SS190rounds come up on Gunbroker fairly frequently (currently five auctions).

Although some point to "inherent" flaws in the round itself, I think that the jury is out on the 5.7 until tests can be performed on some of the newer rounds that have been developed, such as by the already mentioned Elite Ammunition.

 

[TexasRifleman]

There have been some statements regarding the possible illegality of the 5.7 round. I know of no laws, certainly Federal, and neither state or local, that make this round illegal.

That is true, I think I misstate that often just out of habit. You are correct.

 

[expvideo]

That's a good deal. It's not an outragious deal, but it is worth at least $1000. You should easily be able to recoup your costs. You might even make a little bit of money from the deal, but not a significant amount. Or hey, you could just keep it. $1000 for the pistol with 3 mags and 100 rounds is a pretty decent deal!

 

[expvideo]

double tap

 

[Walkalong]

Take it. You have a novelty, he has $1000 debt less

and you helped a buddy out.


I really enjoy shooting my AR 57 (Ar 15 upper in 5.7 x 28). It is a fun range gun.

Ammo is not really much more expensive than other brass cased factory ammo.

Munitions to Go - Split a case with someone.

 

[SHOOT1SAM]

Personally, when I'm in a position to loan money to a friend/relative, I do so with the frame of mind that I'm really gifting it to them, that I'll never see it again. I don't "loan" it if I can't afford to "blow" it on something.

As your friend is suffering from the loss of his wife, & raising his three children alone now, I would simply tell him not to worry about the debt at all.

If he insisted, I'd take the pistol, put it in the safe, & someday get it back to him. I'm a believer in what comes around, goes around, both positively and negatively.

Sam

 

[Storm]

SHOOT1SAM, I like the sound of that a lot.

But, I'm the kind of person who if I borrow will move heaven and earth to pay it back and find great satisfaction once a debt is paid back. It all depends upon how his friend feels about the issue an whether he would see the offer to excuse the debt as charity, which some folks might take offense to. Satisfying a debt might just be the kick to his friend's self-esteem that he needs right about now.

Another option would be to take the gun and offer a buyback for the same amount when his friends's position in life improves. That would accomplish three things: 1. satisfy the debt and the sense of obligation. 2. give his friend hope that he might get the gun back someday. 3. And stand for the proposition that things will get better someday and that his situtation is just temporary.

 

[sinistr]

take the gun shoot the ammo, then decide.btw it cc's very well.

 

[tostada]

Your options are:
1) take the gun, look like a nice guy
2) get nothing, lose a friend

Forget about the specifics of what you're getting. Just look at your friend's situation. If you don't take the gun, you're not going to get your money for a long time. You'll look like a jerk for not accepting the offer, and you'll end up having to harass him for the money for a long time. Hanging out will become awkward so he'll start avoiding you, and your only contact will be to ask about the money, so you're going to lose a friend.

 

[SHOOT1SAM]

Storm,

You've basically spelled out what I was implying without stating. That's in essence what I meant by, take the pistol if he insisted, & get it back to him someday.

I have the same frame of mind as you when I'm the borrower instead of the lender.

Sam

 

[greenr18]

Edit: yaa forget my original post. an fn 57 to pay off 1000 is pretty good

 

[mgregg85]

Unless you get the AP ammo(which they won't sell to you directly, you have to try and find it on gunbroker for high prices) you've just got a $1,000 .22 magnum with real expensive ammo that probably shouldn't be reloaded.

 

[Walkalong]

.22 magnum with real expensive ammo that probably shouldn't be reloaded.

I, and many others, are reloading it, but it is not for the beginner.

 

[MAKster]

Even if you don't really want the gun, this is probably the best chance you are ever going to have to recoup any of your $1000. As you said he is unemployed and selling all his possessions so it is unlikey he will have $1000 cash anytime soon.

 

[Mot45acp]

Rather than a caliber war, I purpose the following.

If it is the type of friend to loan $1000 to, it might be worth it to let him keep his gun. I dont have many friends, but few I do, I would gladly give $1000 to, no questions asked.

Only you can decide the price tag of a friendship. If it were one of my friends that fell on hard times all debts would be forgiven. Knowing my friends they would prolly insist that I take it. I would hold on to it to either sell back at the original price (read: no profit) or gift it back to them for a birthday or Christmas.
You need

 

[Jason_G]

If it is the type of friend to loan $1000 to, it might be worth it to let him keep his gun. I dont have many friends, but few I do, I would gladly give $1000 to, no questions asked.

I think most everyone here would echo that, but I know for me personally, I would not willingly accept a gift of $1000 without plans to repay it. I would try to find some way to repay my debt, and it sounds like that is exactly what this friend is trying to do. I would feel bad if someone did not let me repay my debt, so in that regard, I would take the pistol if I were the one who loaned the money. I know it would make me feel better if I were the debtor.

Jason