No FN five seven's for Boston

[Fletchette]

"It's not for hunting or sporting use"....that's for sure and "no one wants a gun that can shoot through the vest of a police officer...certianly not the average citizen',

There ya go, "not for the average citizen" = "not for the commoners".

I betchya Ted Kennedy and his bodyguards could get one.

 

[ConserVet]

Even with the civvie ammo available, small bullet diameter, as well as high velocity - works as a "vest-buster" regardless of bullet design in this cartridge.[/U]

Oh my God, we have to ban the .204 Ruger...its a cop-killer!

Wait, forget I said that. It might give somebody at the Brady Campaign ideas...

 

[Manedwolf]

They can? Are they less effective than 5.7?

Less capacity. The CZ-52 is only eight rounds, the Tokarev I'm not sure. The FiveseveN is a high-cap pistol, 20 rounds, last I'd seen.

There's other advantages, too, the FN is reputed to be very light in recoil and with little muzzleflash, while the 7.62x25 Tokarev round, especially the "hot" Czech military original, is a flamethrower with an impressively bright muzzle blast (which can ruin your night vision) and loud report.

So yes, the FN is definitely more advanced and has advantages, but when it comes to punching right through a Type II vest, yes, 7.62x25 is very fast (can exceed 1400-1600fps), and can do that.

 

[mordechaianiliewicz]

Specifically about the Five-Seven,

Forgive me if I make any technical errors - please correct me if I am wrong.

Anyway you try and justify it - it was designed specifically to defeat body armor. The military/police ammunition is illegal to own because it has a steel-core AP penetrator. Thing is, the cartridge was designed with more than one form of AP characteristic. Even with the civvie ammo available, small bullet diameter, as well as high velocity - works as a "vest-buster" regardless of bullet design in this cartridge.


Total hypothetical situation here. Our government becomes tyrannical. Say, like the Nazis of the 1930's. It is safe to say that the strong-arm of this tyranny will be the law-enforcement establishment. [please, no flames here - we all saw New Orleans]. These authorities WILL be wearing body armor. Either type IIa or IIIa.


If you had to engage them in self-defense against unjustfied arrest, imprisonment, or from extermination - your 45acp, 9mm, 38spl, 357 are all OBSOLETE. Preferably, you'd need to be using an AK, AR, M1A, FAL, M1 or whatever your fancy is. Unfortunately, you can't easily carry one of those around society or easily wield one from a car as you could a high-capacity pistol. It is out and about in society where "they" prefer to prey on you.

You have to compromise. I know you all want and like your 230gr .45acp's...but they are obsolete. They will not penetrate. They will knock the wind out of someone, but they won't take them out of the fight. In fights, ranges are short, 0ft to 21ft typical with 75ft max. At such ranges, speed is KING. You will not be making headshots unless you are Jerry Milucek (sp?)...You will be going for torso shots. Which are bigger and easier to hit in a defense scenario. They also contain the vitals needed to be hit for incapacitation.


The tiny Five-Seven ammo isn't a great round, but it at least "gets you in the game" by giving you the ability to actually wound the "opponent" in a serious way. And step 1 is body armor penetration. It's a compromise. It is a "work around" solution to a "problem"...


I know that isn't very politically correct, but oh well. Again, no one is discussing fighting the police or government. Only discussing the effectiveness of arms as DETERRENTS. And as we all know, for deterrents to be deterrents - they must work IF needed.

I very much agree. 5.7 is no treasure (I don't care what the press from Herstal is saying). But it is the way of things.

2a is the reason the FiveseveN should exist in civilian hands even if I wish there was something better.

 

[Black92LX]

The bullets available to the public do not have an armor-piercing tip and are designed to fragment upon impact, making them less powerful. Company officials said that while the commercially available ammunition can in rare cases penetrate some body armor used by law enforcement, these bullets cannot pierce other models of bulletproof vests.

SO WHAT's THE FREAKING PROBLEM HERE. The stuff civilians get doesn't penetrate. So clearly if someone has the armor peircing stuff they are breaking the law already! Another law is going to stop them. What freaking morons.

 

[AF_INT1N0]

SO WHAT's THE FREAKING PROBLEM HERE. The stuff civilians get doesn't penetrate. So clearly if someone has the armor peircing stuff they are breaking the law already! Another law is going to stop them. What freaking morons.

It doesn't matter.. it's just another gun out of the hands of those crazy gun nuts..

 

[Hellenistic Riot]

So what exactly is the difference between the LE and civilian ammo? Lower velocities, different bullet weights? Could the civilian ammo be reloaded into something capable of AP?

 

[Chrontius]

They can? Are they less effective than 5.7?

Well, fewer rounds in a magazine and shoddy ergonomics, but they make slightly bigger holes.

Civilian ammo is polymer-filled hollowpoint, and yes it can be reloaded into something that's pretty darn AP.

 

[AF_INT1N0]

Wait a minute???

Does that mean the .17 HRM is a vest buster as well??

You could probably fit like 30 of those in a handgun Magazine..

And a .308 is a high velocity round... Does that mean that it can bust a police soft vest too?

And what about 7mm

And 5.56mm

All these high powered weapons who's only use is to kill people!!!!!!!

The World is DOOMED!!!!!!!!

DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMEEEEEDDDDD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry, ya'll scared myself for a minute..

But seriously does a .17 HMR have the properties to penetrate a vest?

 

[twoblink]

Err.. isn't this the same group of people who said that 50Cal's would be used to rob the local stop-n-robs? Oh.. oops, that'd be the idiots on the WEST coast, these are the idiots on the EAST coast..

My mistake..

What needs to happen is the P90 needs to be sold with the 5.7 as a set.

And I have no idea what the big deal is about body armor penetration is..

Twoblink + 10 gauge deer slug ... it might not penetrate your armor, but I guarantee it will make your innerds into shepard's pie. Penetration is not the only thing that will kill you. Plenty of cops have been killed without the round penetrating the armor.

 

[AF_INT1N0]

Err.. isn't this the same group of people who said that 50Cal's would be used to rob the local stop-n-robs? Oh.. oops, that'd be the idiots on the WEST coast, these are the idiots on the EAST coast..

My mistake..

What needs to happen is the P90 needs to be sold with the 5.7 as a set.

And I have no idea what the big deal is about body armor penetration is..

Twoblink + 10 gauge deer slug ... it might not penetrate your armor, but I guarantee it will make your innerds into shepard's pie. Penetration is not the only thing that will kill you. Plenty of cops have been killed without the round penetrating the armor.

Both very good points Twoblink.
I think it's just incrementalism... They make up a next new gun that "civilians" shouldn't own for the good of the Police state. Next it will be hunting(or should we say sniper rifles)

 

[Hellenistic Riot]

Does that mean the .17 HRM is a vest buster as well??

Yes. I'd also like to know what exactly makes a cartridge capable of AP on soft armor.

 

[xd45gaper]

i want to buy a 5n7 those guns are SWEEET!

i first saw this gun on the Brady website this guy was shooting armor piercing bullets threw a bullet proof vest at 5 yards saying how horrible this cop killing gun was blah blah blah how it has no use except to kill cops and how it should be banned because its bullets go threw body armor. (most any rifle or semi auto weapon will go threw the vest that most cops are issued.)

 

[azflyman]

Here is one for ya'll.

1) Take a tungsten TIG welding rod about the same size as your hollow point.

2) sharpen or round the end.

3) cut to fit into depth of hollow point.

4) Wax surround the tungsten in the hollow point to center the tungsten if it is too loose.

5) Fire at your favorite bullet proof vest.

Instant armor piercing round with any caliber. Now boys and girls, wasn't that easy?

Anyone can make an vest defeating bullet in a jiffy i you really wanted one. I would much rather whack someone with a tungsten loaded 44 mag if I had to do so than a 5.7. Knock the crap out of em and skewer them like a piece of meat. If it all goes down have something that has real effect.

az

 

[loadedround]

No FN5.7's in Boston

Just maybe those idiots that banned this gun should read the article on the FN 5.7 in the latest issue Of "Guns and Ammo". Excellent article with truth about this cartridge. Civilians are not permitted to buy the "cop killer ammo" and available ammo is not considered a reliable man stopper, just fun to shoot.

 

[M2 Carbine]

I may go buy a second FN5.7 just because it irritates the gun grabbing pukes so bad.

 

[Firethorn]

i first saw this gun on the Brady website this guy was shooting armor piercing bullets threw a bullet proof vest at 5 yards saying how horrible this cop killing gun was blah blah blah how it has no use except to kill cops and how it should be banned because its bullets go threw body armor. (most any rifle or semi auto weapon will go threw the vest that most cops are issued.)

Was the vest on some sort of dummy? Soft vests rely on support, such as your body, to actually stop rounds.

As for the pistol, I've heard that it's such a popular product because Brady & Co yelled so much and essentially gave FN free advertising.

 

[outofbattery]

MA residents can't buy a new handgun that holds more than 10 rounds anyway,not to mention anything that isn't on the AG's approved to purchase list,which the FN isn't,so it's entirely a moot point.Since the Fed's say you can't purchase a handgun in another state,anyone having one in Boston would have commited a couple crimes before they ever shot a cop with it.Rediculous-they might as well ban the possession of Javelin AT missiles in Boston because they're a danger to the police

 

[Tory]

Misinformation

"... on the AG's approved to purchase list...."

Nonsense. There is NO SUCH LIST. There IS an Approved Firearms Roster, but that is promulgated by the GCAB by statute and is wholly independent of the errant AG's actions. The AG has NEVER issued a list of what guns he deems acceptable.

"Since the Fed's [sic] say you can't purchase a handgun in another state..."

More false statements. There is NOTHING in Federal law prohibiting you buying a handgun in another state; I've bought two that way. The law DOES require DELIVERY via an FFL in the buyer's home state; this is what makes the Mass. ban effective.