Follow up to: "Should you ever admit you are carrying?"

[climbnjump]

Last July, there was an incident in MN where a person with a carry permit was shot and killed by a cop during a traffic stop. The officer thought he resembled a suspect in a recent armed robbery and subsequently stopped him for a broken taillight and things went downhill from there.

Rather than trying to summarize what happened during the stop, a good description can be found here: http://www.twincities.com/2017/06/0...ile-at-all-yanez-says-in-emotional-testimony/

We had a thread on it here: https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/should-you-ever-admit-you-are-carrying.806969/

The officer was charged with second degree manslaughter and two counts of dangerous discharge of a firearm.

The trial went to jury on Monday of this week. After two days of deliberation, the jury reported they were deadlocked, but the judge sent them back to continue trying to reach a verdict. Today – two days later – they did reach a verdict and have found the officer Not Guilty on all three counts.

I'm sure there will be much analysis in the news on this verdict and subsequent updates can be found using this search string: http://www.twincities.com/?s=Castile&orderby=date&order=desc

 

[Madcap_Magician]

Hoo boy. Hope nobody wants to drive on I94 anytime soon. I expect there will be... protests.

I still have reservations on this one. Whether I think it was justified rests wholly on the unknowable- did Yanez reasonably believe that Castile was reaching for his gun?

I honestly think it was one of those terrible tragedies that occasionally result from exactly the wrong combination of tiny, non- or only minorly negligent errors on behalf of the parties involved.

However, to answer the specific question in the thread, this is probably not really an argument against notifying.

If Yanez had been smart enough to follow up on Castile's "I have a firearm" notification with "Where is the gun?" and "Do you have a permit?" and given more specific directions than "Don't reach for it..." which conflicted with his request for Castile to get his driver's license...

... if Castile had been smart enough to say "My gun is in my right front pocket and my wallet and driver's license are in my right back pocket, how do you want me to proceed?" while keeping his hands stationary and in sight...

I am also in Minnesota, and thought I haven't been stopped in years, those times when I was stopped and carrying, I never notified... but I had a clear plan to notify officers in case something happened during a stop where it became clear they were going to discover my sidearm.

 

[herrwalther]

I have been pulled over a ton of times while carrying. The difference has always been where is my gun at the time. In its holster, on my belt. Never leaves there. I am sure if my firearm was ever in my hand, I would not be able to make posts on THR.

Only a handful of states require police be notified of a firearm during a traffic stop. I am too lazy to look it up right now but I believe it is 4 states. I have no intention of informing an officer if I have a weapon unless I am asked to exit the vehicle. It is just as easy to reach past a holstered weapon to my wallet on the same side than to worry about how a cop may react to my owning of a firearm. Officers are trained to read body language as well. Don't go reaching for something out of sight, even if it is your registration or insurance card. If you are pulled over at night, click on your dome light so you can be seen better.

Tragic loss of life but if you have a firearm in your hand going toward an officer, it won't end well for you.

EDIT* I just read another (rather biased) account of this incident. Where the victim was seated in his car when shot. And merely told the officer he had a firearm instead of having it in his hand. This is why I have trust issues with the media.

 

[Moparnut]

In Arkansas you must tell the officer you have a firearm. If it is on you or accessible. Most officers I have talked say they usually don't have a problem when someone admits to having a gun at the beginning of the stop. Most officers just ask for your DL, CHL and registration. Typically they will hand back your CHL after glancing at it, then proceed with checking the rest.

 

[Jenrick]

I can say from being the one doing the stopping, please let me know. Let me know where it is to.

The reason being, if the first indication I have is that you have a gun in the vehicle is me seeing it we're going to do a bunch of talking with my pistol between us. I don't want to have to do that. Second reason being I can let my partner know, who's walking up on the other side of the car, so that I don't suddenly get the call of "GUN!" and have about 2.25 seconds to decided if I'm breaking a shot.

I have had to do both of the above on multiple occasions. It's not pleasant for either party. Neither of use is going to enjoy all the shakes that much adrenaline causes.

A simple polite, "Officer, I am carrying my firearm for self defense, and it is located XYZ. What would you like me to do?" Is a great way to start out our conversation. Most of the time I reply with "Thank you, don't reach for it." After I get through the initial formalities, I might ask you what you're carrying and if you like it. Had a pleasant conversation about the Colt Delta Elite one night that started off this way.

There are certainly horror stories of citizens getting pulled out of cars, disarmed, and cuffed. I disagree with those, but at the end of the day they are alive and able to seek civil redress against the officer or agency.

-Jenrick

 

[Squire Western]

I never disclose unless in one of the 10 states that require it upon official contact with a LEO. It's an infringement that does more harm than good, IMO.

 

[hdwhit]

Madcap Magician wrote:
If Yanez had been smart enough to follow up on Castile's "I have a firearm" notification with "Where is the gun?" and "Do you have a permit?" and given more specific directions than "Don't reach for it..." which conflicted with his request for Castile to get his driver's license...

... if Castile had been smart enough to say "My gun is in my right front pocket and my wallet and driver's license are in my right back pocket, how do you want me to proceed?" while keeping his hands stationary and in sight...

But when an LEO detains someone, they are supposed to be in control of the situation. It is the responsibility of the person in control to give clear, explicit instructions. As you note, Yanez gave Castile conflicting instructions and that's what set in motion the chain of events that followed.

Yes, Castile might have been able to save his life by not complying with Yanez' instructions and narrating his actions as he did them, but the fact he didn't does not make him culpable in his own death.

 

[hdwhit]

Jenrick wrote:
A simple polite, "Officer, I am carrying my firearm for self defense, and it is located XYZ. What would you like me to do?" Is a great way to start out our conversation. Most of the time I reply with "Thank you, don't reach for it."

Yes. But you don't say, "Thank you, don't reach for it, but while you're not moving, DO reach for something in the same general area."

 

[cjwils]

Other discussions on this topic that I have read have generally concluded that Castile should have started by saying something like "I have a concealed weapon permit," rather than mentioning the G word.

 

[TrickyDick]

Maine has both laws.

If you have a permit, you have no duty to inform, unless asked.

I'd you're carrying under the "constitutional Carry" law, you have a duty to inform.


I've had a permit since 2010, and the new constitutional Carry law was passed last year. I intend on renewing my permit regardless of the law because I imagine Democrats will rescind the law the first chance they have, and will probably make getting a permit harder. So I'll pay the $25 every 5 years, as insurance. Plus, having the permit has a few extra perks that CC doesn't.

 

[Kendahl]

I live in a duty-to-notify state. It hasn't happened yet but, if I were to be stopped, I would begin by telling the officer that I hold a concealed carry permit, that I am armed, and give the location. If that were on my belt at 4 o'clock and he demanded my ID, I would remind him where my gun is located and that I would have to reach past it to get my ID out of my back pocket. I would then ask him if he was comfortable with that.

Fifty years ago, during a traffic stop in Texas, a motorist reached into the glove compartment, pulled out a handgun, and shot the officer to death. Shortly thereafter, during another stop, a motorist reached into his glove compartment and was shot dead by the officer. In the second example, the motorist actually was retrieving his registration.

The moral of the two stories is that both sides need to think before they speak and act.

 

[MedWheeler]

There's a difference between "admitting" to having a firearm and "volunteering" that you have one.

I will "volunteer" that I have one if circumstances, in my assessment of the then-current situation, deem it prudent to do so.

I will "admit" that I have one if a LEO inquires while acting within the scope of his or her duties.

 

[Frank Ettin]

The bottom line here seems to be that the jurors, having heard the evidence and with far more information than we have, apparently were sufficiently inclined to accept Yanez' testimony and acquit him.

One lesson here might be about planning. If you're going to be carrying a gun, it's probably best not to carry your wallet, or anything else you're likely to need to reach for regularly, near your gun. BTW, I wear my gun (I carry whenever I legally can) at my right hip and carry my wallet, with ID and permit, in my left front trouser pocket. There are all kinds of way to get into serious trouble if every time you reach for your wallet it looks like you're going for your gun.

The other lesson is about communication. Don't move. Talk first. With your hands still and in plain sight tell the officer where your gun is, tell the officer where your wallet and ID is, tell the officer, if it's the case, that you need to undo your seat belt to get to your wallet. Then, while still not moving, ask for instructions and wait for instructions. Then follow those instructions.

If the officer sees your hand moving toward where a gun is likely to be, and especially if he sees the gun, and especially if it looks like your hand is on the gun, what is the officer supposed to think? He doesn't know who you are. You don't have "certified good guy" tattooed on your forehead. Even if you did, why would he, or anyone else, believe it when being wrong could be one's last act on Earth. A police officer (or a private citizen facing a possible lethal threat) must make in an instant what could be a life-or-death decision based only on what he perceives in front of him. Those of us honest folks who might be carrying a gun need to understand that and be prepared to act in ways that could not possibly be seen as threatening.

 

[climbnjump]

As you note, Yanez gave Castile conflicting instructions and that's what set in motion the chain of events that followed.

Well, order of commands is important and reveals that the commands weren't actually in conflict.

Yanez asked for driver's license and proof of insurance. Castile handed over proof of insurance, but it wasn't revealed where he got it from. Castile then reached with his right hand down toward his right hip. With his hand in that position, it was at that point that he said, "Sir, I do have to tell you, I have a firearm on me". It was after that that Yanez told him not to reach for it and not to pull it out. Castile responded that "I'm not reaching for it". Shortly after that, Yanez opened fire. He claimed he saw a pistol coming out of Castile's pocket with Castile having a "C-grip" on it.

In the aftermath, that was where the pistol was - it fell out of the right pocket after Castile had been removed from the vehicle. His wallet with his driver's license and carry permit were recovered from his shorts at the hospital, but they didn't note which pocket they had been recovered from.

One other note that came out during the trial was that Castile had high level's of THC in his system. However, unlike alcohol in the blood after death, THC is stored in fatty tissues which start to decompose rapidly so no real determination can be made on when - or how much - marijuana was smoked. The defense claimed that Castile was actually high at the time of the stop, but it isn't possible to know for sure.

But regarding his marijuana use - Castile was a long time user. He would have had to have lied on his carry permit application when asked about it. So, did he really have a "valid" carry permit as the media claim he had? That question wasn't answered.

 

[Solomonson]

I got pulled over one time because I had neglected to put the current tag (it was in the glove compartment) on my car's plate. My trunk was full of (legal) firearms and my wallet was in my range bag. Things worked out OK, but the highway patrol were awfully stiff about things.

I offered to just pop the trunk and have them retrieve my wallet -- after telling them about the firearms. They wouldn't do that. I had to get out of the car, unlock the trunk, pull my range bag out, get my wallet/driver's license which I handed to them. They asked me to sit on the hood of their cruiser (which was right behind my car) while they "ran" me. I closed the trunk, sat my range bag on their hood of their car and sat down. After about 90 seconds, one asked if there was anything in the bag that would be used as a weapon? I said there were two semi-auto pistols and two revolvers in the bag and some leftover ammo. I offered to put the bag in the trunk and they allowed me to.

I make it a point now to ensure my wallet is with me when I am transporting firearms in the trunk of my car. Had they asked about firearms (I have no idea why they would have?), I would most certainly have said that I had none -- if I would have had my wallet in my back pocket.

 

[climbnjump]

The other lesson is about communication. Don't move. Talk first. With your hands still and in plain sight tell the officer where your gun is, tell the officer where your wallet and ID is, tell the officer, if it's the case, that you need to undo your seat belt to get to your wallet. Then, while still not moving, ask for instructions and wait for instructions. Then follow those instructions.

Amen.

Castile did not have a duty to inform the officer, so he did not during the start of the encounter. We'll never know, but I would guess he said what he did WHEN he did because he realized that his gun was going to be exposed when getting his wallet out.

And to add the obvious to what Mr. Ettin wrote, don't be drinking or smoking dope if you're carrying...

 

[Jenrick]

Yes. But you don't say, "Thank you, don't reach for it, but while you're not moving, DO reach for something in the same general area."

Agree'd. Sadly a lot of agencies don't really train their officers on how to handle the situation, as there isn't a really good school house answer. On one hand the safest way, most citizens wont appreciate; while the the one your average person is okay with is bordering on unsafe. It was something I made a point of going over with my rookies day 1, so they had an idea how to handle the situation.

-Jenrick

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

Everyone will choose their own destinies by way of their pre-thought (or lack thereof) actions.

I haven't been pulled in well over a decade. But now that I carry I always pull my wallet from my pocket every time I get in my truck, and set it in the little cubby just top right of the steering wheel. Registration and POS are in the visor above me. Should I ever get pulled over I will have already indiscreetly compiled a neat little stack in my left hand (both hands on the wheel) with the window rolled down and the dome light on (assuming dark) before the officer exits their vehicle.

On the top of that stack I hand the officer will be my CHP. Without ever mentioning I am carrying or that "I have a gun" they will be informed and can get the ball rolling as to how they would like me to proceed.

 

[Ironicaintit]

If (when) I get pulled over, I have my drivers license, vehicle registration, and insurance in hand before the officer gets to my window. And of course, the vehicle is turned off, windows down, light on, hands visible, etc.

I never mention my carry permit or the fact that I am carrying. Once, an officer did see it poking out of my wallet and asked if it was a CCP.
"Yessir, would you like to see it?"
"Nah, I'll be right back"
He gave me a warning for the speed, told me to get a front plate on, and we were good.

Most times, it goes about like that. Smile, be honest, be polite, and don't make him nervous. It's not that tough. If you can make him laugh, you're golden. This policy has gotten me out of many a moving violation.

The problems tend to pop up when the officer is just a jerk, is having a bad day or is ignorant of the laws he's enforcing..... Or if the person pulled over is a dirtbag, looks and feels guilty, or has some complex about being persecuted by The Man.

I had a quite tense several minutes with a huuuge motorcycle cop who was ignorant of the legality of keeping a loaded weapon in a glovebox, out of sight, without a concealed permit. I did not have one at the time.
My hands fully in view, he was yelling and even cursing at me (about what do I need a gun for blah blah blah) and I was emphatically stating my case. A second officer showed up, they discussed it, and I was right by golly.
I was fully willing to get arrested for it, dumb as that sounds.
Nothing hones your argument like a roadside discussion with a lawman that has an axe to grind, I can tell ya.

He never did ask to see the BHP or even the car registration (he was at the window so fast, I hadn't gotten the paper, and it was in the glovebox with the BHP. I volunteered that info and said he could get it himself if he liked. That's what started it)

Short story long;
Communication is key. What you say, how you say it, and to whom, makes all the difference in the world.

I'd be willing to bet that Castille was nervous and antsy, which would make the officer nervous and edgy.
Not a good combination when weapons are present.

 

[hdwhit]

climbnjump wrote:
"Should you ever admit you are carrying?"

Should you EVER admit you are carrying; unequivocally, "Yes".

 

[Elkins45]

The bottom line here seems to be that the jurors, having heard the evidence and with far more information than we have, apparently were sufficiently inclined to accept Yanez' testimony and acquit him.

One lesson here might be about planning. If you're going to be carrying a gun, it's probably best not to carry your wallet, or anything else you're likely to need to reach for regularly, near your gun. BTW, I wear my gun (I carry whenever I legally can) at my right hip and carry my wallet, with ID and permit, in my left front trouser pocket. There are all kinds of way to get into serious trouble if every time you reach for your wallet it looks like you're going for your gun.

The other lesson is about communication. Don't move. Talk first. With your hands still and in plain sight tell the officer where your gun is, tell the officer where your wallet and ID is, tell the officer, if it's the case, that you need to undo your seat belt to get to your wallet. Then, while still not moving, ask for instructions and wait for instructions. Then follow those instructions.

If the officer sees your hand moving toward where a gun is likely to be, and especially if he sees the gun, and especially if it looks like your hand is on the gun, what is the officer supposed to think? He doesn't know who you are. You don't have "certified good guy" tattooed on your forehead. Even if you did, why would he, or anyone else, believe it when being wrong could be one's last act on Earth. A police officer (or a private citizen facing a possible lethal threat) must make in an instant what could be a life-or-death decision based only on what he perceives in front of him. Those of us honest folks who might be carrying a gun need to understand that and be prepared to act in ways that could not possibly be seen as threatening.

I carry IWB on my right hip...and unfortunately my lifelong habit is to carry my wallet in my right rear pocket. When wearing dress clothes I carry the gun in my right front pocket, but that's another story.

Because glove box carry is legal here, my practice when I've been pulled over the four times I recall since receiving a permit has been to pull out the gun and place it in the glove box. I do it while I'm pulling over or immediately as soon as I have stopped. In 3/4 of the instances the officer has asked me about the presence of a firearm, and I told them where it was. Two made a joke about neither of us going for our guns. One opened the passenger door, opened the glove box and unloaded the gun. He took the ammo (but not the gun) with him while he returned to his cruiser to write a ticket, which I found mildly amusing because there was a speedloader with it.

I keep my registration and insurance info in a pouch above my visor so I don't have to open the glovebox to retrieve it.

 

[Hokkmike]

but I had a clear plan to notify officers in case something happened during a stop where it became clear they were going to discover my sidearm.

I like this thinking....

 

[MichaelS.]

I carry IWB on my right hip...and unfortunately my lifelong habit is to carry my wallet in my right rear pocket. When wearing dress clothes I carry the gun in my right front pocket, but that's another story.
.

Precisely why I habituated myself into carrying my wallet in my LEFT hip pocket once I acquired my CCP.

 

[BSA1]

I can say from being the one doing the stopping, please let me know. Let me know where it is to.

The reason being, if the first indication I have is that you have a gun in the vehicle is me seeing it we're going to do a bunch of talking with my pistol between us. I don't want to have to do that. Second reason being I can let my partner know, who's walking up on the other side of the car, so that I don't suddenly get the call of "GUN!" and have about 2.25 seconds to decided if I'm breaking a shot.

I have had to do both of the above on multiple occasions. It's not pleasant for either party. Neither of use is going to enjoy all the shakes that much adrenaline causes.

A simple polite, "Officer, I am carrying my firearm for self defense, and it is located XYZ. What would you like me to do?" Is a great way to start out our conversation. Most of the time I reply with "Thank you, don't reach for it." After I get through the initial formalities, I might ask you what you're carrying and if you like it. Had a pleasant conversation about the Colt Delta Elite one night that started off this way.

There are certainly horror stories of citizens getting pulled out of cars, disarmed, and cuffed. I disagree with those, but at the end of the day they are alive and able to seek civil redress against the officer or agency.

-Jenrick

This goes to show that some folks should not be police officers.

A Officer that " if the first indication I have is that you have a gun in the vehicle is me seeing it we're going to do a bunch of talking with my pistol between us" when I am lawfully carrying and fully complying with the written law has no business working the street. This attitude is exactly why many civil rights experts recommend recording all interactions with the Police with their cellphone.

When I worked the street when I made a traffic stop I assumed everyone in the vehicle was armed and practiced good safety procedures until I was convinced they were not a threat.

 

[TrickyDick]

Why wait for the PO to get to your window? If I know I'm being pulled over, I grab my wallet from my rear pocket before he's even out off the car. I keep my insurance and registration in my visor that has a fancy little sleeve to hold it, so there's ZERO reason to open my glove box.

As I said before, there's no reason to mention my firearm during a traffic stop, since the gun isn't driving or involved in the possible driving infraction.

However, if they ask, I'll let them know. Otherwise, it's an unnecessary topic to bring up.