Follow up to: "Should you ever admit you are carrying?"

[BSA1]

Well, order of commands is important and reveals that the commands weren't actually in conflict.



In the aftermath, that was where the pistol was - it fell out of the right pocket after Castile had been removed from the vehicle. His wallet with his driver's license and carry permit were recovered from his shorts at the hospital, but they didn't note which pocket they had been recovered from.

Convenient omission isn't it?

One other note that came out during the trial was that Castile had high level's of THC in his system. However, unlike alcohol in the blood after death, THC is stored in fatty tissues which start to decompose rapidly so no real determination can be made on when - or how much - marijuana was smoked. The defense claimed that Castile was actually high at the time of the stop, but it isn't possible to know for sure.

But regarding his marijuana use - Castile was a long time user. He would have had to have lied on his carry permit application when asked about it. So, did he really have a "valid" carry permit as the media claim he had? That question wasn't answered.

Did they test the Officer blood to see if he had drugs in his system?

 

[BSA1]

The officer was charged with second degree manslaughter and two counts of dangerous discharge of a firearm.

The trial went to jury on Monday of this week. After two days of deliberation, the jury reported they were deadlocked, but the judge sent them back to continue trying to reach a verdict. Today – two days later – they did reach a verdict and have found the officer Not Guilty on all three counts.

While the Officer got away with legal homicide the damage that he did to the trust between all LEO's in that Department and the citizens (especially minorities) will last for another generation.

This breakdown of trust could well lead to higher risk to lawfully carrying citizens when interacting with the Police.

 

[vito]

I admit that I have gone back and forth in my own mind as to whether or not to volunteer the information that I am legally carrying if stopped for a traffic infraction. I have heard many times that officers greatly prefer the courtesy of being told, but I have also heard of situations where the second officer on the scene only partially hears what is said and might well over react to hearing that the driver has a firearm. I am convinced that it would never be a good idea to use the word "gun" under any circumstances, but always to say "firearm" instead. In the Yanez/Castille case I just don't know what actually happened, none of us do, but I think that there is a good chance that the officer was over nervous and might have even fired accidentally and then needed to cover himself with a story about the driver reaching for a gun. So I end up still unsure of the best plan for what to do if armed and stopped for a traffic stop.

 

[Kleanbore]

While the Officer got away with legal murder...

Were you present in the courtroom during all of the testimony?

 

[Milt1]

I live in a state where you have to (first thing) inform the officer that you have a weapon. I've also thought about how I would handle this and I'd keep both hands on the steering wheel and let the officer know that I have a CCP and let him know where the weapon was and that I will follow his instructions.

 

[Ruezim]

Last time I was pulled over was the day before selling my Harley I was going 80 in a 55 on the bike for my last joy ride. Officer pulled me over I carry on my right hip and my wallet sits in my right front pocket. I do not have a duty to inform in my state but decided it was the best course of action at the time. Told him that I was carrying and where my wallet and pistol both were at. He thanked me for telling him and just asked me to slowly get out my wallet. He then ran my information came back and gave me a warning. We then spent about 20 minutes on the side of the road discussing how I liked my XDs because he was thinking about picking one up.

Fun little side note I have seen him at the local range a few times now. Took my oldest son to the range last week for his first time shooting. He was so excited about hitting the target "by himself" I had to support the back of the stock but he is six so we went with that. The office was there practicing when we got there. He recognized me I do kind of stick out in a crowd, he said that he just picked up his XDs the other day and loves it. He even gave my son some pointers and a sticker badge for hitting the target.

I have to say that the whole thing seemed to work out well for everyone.

 

[9MMare]

Other discussions on this topic that I have read have generally concluded that Castile should have started by saying something like "I have a concealed weapon permit," rather than mentioning the G word.

I hadnt read that before but it makes cops sounds unintelligent...as if they dont know the difference or that if you have your permit, you may very well have your gun as well.

They should be able to mentally process the statement either way, professionally and without fearful reaction.

 

[9MMare]

This cop did not identify the threat. He had time to identify (see) what the motorist was taking from his pocket...but IMO he panicked and shot first. He could have waited and shot IF needed, before the motorist had time to clear his pocket and aim.

This sort of thing would be the normal process for many car stops...motorists following police orders after the police know they are/may be armed (often by running the plates before approaching). This incident makes it sound like there is no way for citizens to be safe in a traffic stop.

 

[wojownik]

If I knew I was being pulled over, I would try to refrain from any odd or potentially suspicious (i.e furtive) moves, like digging around, or reaching into pockets.
I happen to keep my wallet out of my pocket, and in the cupholder or cubby on the dash.

When pulled over, I turn off the ignition and turn on the interior lights (especially at night - full visibility for the PO). Hands remain on the steering wheel.

When I was recently pulled over (once for a burnt out headlight, another for a burnt out tail light. Dang cheap Walmart replacement lamps), things were courteous, professional, and ended with a verbal suggestion, no ticket.

In one instance, the PO asked for my DL, so I handed him my DL and CC permit, and timidly informed him I was carrying. (I admit my voice was shaky - first time ever pulled over while carrying). He said "I appreciate you telling me." Then noted "You seem nervous" - I replied simply "yeah - never been pulled over while carrying before." The PO seemed to relax a bit, and said, don't worry just keep your hands away from the firearm, and I'll be right back while I run some things." A few minutes later, he came back to say "everything checks out OK. We really appreciate you telling us when you carry. Just go get that light fixed and have a good night." And that was that.

In the second instance, the PO asked for my DL and also asked if there's anything he should know about in the vehicle (I appreciated the humor, when he added "guns, bombs, nuclear weapons..."). I said yessir, and present my DL and CC permit, and informed him that I'm carrying. He asked where, and just said to keep my hands on the steering wheel or wherever, just stay away from your firearm. Again, just a verbal admonition to get the lamp fixed (which I did that evening).

Of course, I might fit a profile that also helps (clean cut but frazzled dad, in a minivan or suv, drowning in kids toys....). In the MN case I hesitate to speculate, but the driver may have fit a different "profile" (understatement here), but the PO gave poor instructions, and it ended up in a highly questionable shoot (another understatement).

Why wait for the PO to get to your window? If I know I'm being pulled over, I grab my wallet from my rear pocket before he's even out off the car. I keep my insurance and registration in my visor that has a fancy little sleeve to hold it, so there's ZERO reason to open my glove box.

As I said before, there's no reason to mention my firearm during a traffic stop, since the gun isn't driving or involved in the possible driving infraction.

However, if they ask, I'll let them know. Otherwise, it's an unnecessary topic to bring up.

 

[BSA1]

Were you present in the courtroom during all of the testimony?

You are correct that I am misusing the term “Murder" as the Jury found the Officer not guilty.

Merriam-Webster defines Murder as “the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought.”

I should use the term “Homicide” which is defined as “The killing of one human being by another human being.”

 

[wojownik]

This cop did not identify the threat. He had time to identify (see) what the motorist was taking from his pocket...but IMO he panicked and shot first. He could have waited and shot IF needed, before the motorist had time to clear his pocket and aim.

This sort of thing would be the normal process for many car stops...motorists following police orders after the police know they are/may be armed (often by running the plates before approaching). This incident makes it sound like there is no way for citizens to be safe in a traffic stop.

The PO did not exercise control over the situation, and he created a worse situation IMHO. Essentially, don't touch the gun, but give me your wallet. That's a catch-22 if the wallet is in the same pocket that's near the firearm. Could the driver had stopped to ask the PO for more guidance on what to do? Yes, but let's be real - its a traffic stop, the driver was probably nervous (heck, I get nervous - see my other post - and I WORK with LE agencies. This driver was probably too nervous to think).

It was a bad shoot. The PO's testimony conflicted in critical areas - what he saw and what the driver was doing at the moment he was shot.

Does anyone know what model handgun that the driver was carrying? I'm asking more from a forensic point of view - the officer testified at one time that he saw the barrel of the gun, then changed his story to say he saw the back of the barrel (as well as variations in story that moved the location of the handgun from the driver's hip to his lap). I had heard that the driver's handgun was a semiautomatic, in which case there was no "barrel" to even see. Again, a very bad shoot.

The city at least fired the PO - well ... giving him the option to resign voluntarily.

 

[BSA1]

Why wait for the PO to get to your window? If I know I'm being pulled over, I grab my wallet from my rear pocket before he's even out off the car.

Because a experienced LEO may suspect you are trying to hide something illegal which will give him probable cause to search you and your vehicle.

 

[9MMare]

Because a experienced LEO may suspect you are trying to hide something illegal which will give him probable cause to search you and your vehicle.

Or be retrieving your gun and putting it where you can reach it.

 

[TrickyDick]

Because a experienced LEO may suspect you are trying to hide something illegal which will give him probable cause to search you and your vehicle.

Suspicion isn't enough for probable cause. If he's suspicious, he can ask questions.

 

[grampajack]

The few occasions I've had to talk to police they were thoroughly disinterested in my carry piece when I told them about it. Then again, I'm a short clean cut white guy with a distinctly Jewish appearance. If you look up non-threatening in the dictionary my picture is there.

But it's state law here, and you're required to volunteer the information even if not asked. It's a pretty serious thing if you fail to mention it right off.

I don't think anyone will ever know exactly what happened on this one. If the girlfriend is telling the truth then he's definitely guilty. If the officer is telling the truth then he did what any of us would have done. Just a shame all around. I can't believe this day and age that there are departments left without body cams. That's just asinine in my opinion.

 

[Ironicaintit]

Or be retrieving your gun and putting it where you can reach it.

I would think an experienced officer would assume it's in reach, regardless.

In one of my cars, it's nearly unbearable to keep my pistol holstered on my side (high bolstered buckets), and so, I keep it under my left thigh. Hasn't been an issue.

Have your hands clearly visible and papers at the ready, if at all possible.

 

[wojownik]

Suspicion isn't enough for probable cause. If he's suspicious, he can ask questions.

If a PO has reasonable suspicion, he can certainly effect a frisk and search for a suspected weapon. Probable cause is needed for search warrant.

A traffic stop must be supported by reasonable suspicion or probable cause anyway. And the behavior of the driver or other occupants while effecting the stop - stashing items, rummaging around, or going for pockets (furtive movements) - may provide reasonable suspicion in some circumstances that a weapon is being hidden or accessed. In reasonable suspicion, the officer must take the totality of circumstances into account, such as whether he really feels that he may be at risk.

A Terry frisk for example is based on reasonable suspicion not probable cause

 

[Deanimator]

Obey applicable law, nothing more, nothing less.

I live in Ohio. I'm REQUIRED to notify, VERBALLY, in a "timely" (undefined in the statute) manner.

Given known incidents where cops here have ordered drivers to remain silent, THEN arrested them for "failure to notify", I will shout over a cop if necessary to notify as required by statute.

1. Know the law. You can't count on the cop to do so.
2. Obey the law. Again, you can't count on the cop to do so.
3. Communicate with the cop ONLY to the extent required by law.
4. Consent to NOTHING.
5. When under duress, COMPLY, even to unlawful commands.
6. Carry and use a voice and or video recorder of some kind.

NOBODY Is going to protect your rights OR your life but you.

 

[Deanimator]

Because glove box carry is legal here, my practice when I've been pulled over the four times I recall since receiving a permit has been to pull out the gun and place it in the glove box.

That would be a crime in Ohio. You're not supposed to touch it AT ALL during a stop, EXCEPT as ordered by the cop. Even THEN I wouldn't touch it.

If it gets touched AT ALL, it's going to be by HIM.

 

[Kleanbore]

f it gets touched AT ALL, it's going to be by HIM.

Excellent thinking!

 

[Deanimator]

I can say from being the one doing the stopping, please let me know. Let me know where it is to.

The reason being, if the first indication I have is that you have a gun in the vehicle is me seeing it we're going to do a bunch of talking with my pistol between us.

Do you live and work in a state which has statutorily mandated notification?

If not, you may very well be committing aggravated assault.

 

[Saddlebag Preacher]

In KY, if they run your License plate, it will come up with a CCW permit attached to the record. I was fishing and a game warden approached me and I had my handgun concealed on me, so I advised him of my permit and where my weapon was (on my right hip). He just smiled, asked if he could see my fishing license and my fish. Now I do this out of courtesy as it is not required, as my wallet is on the same side as my handgun, and might be considered a threat (although I have recently thought abut this and changed to the left rear pocket.) But I'm ex-LEO and choose to let them know and not be a surprise. In a vehicle stop, they will probably ask you "if and where".

 

[Elkins45]

That would be a crime in Ohio. You're not supposed to touch it AT ALL during a stop, EXCEPT as ordered by the cop. Even THEN I wouldn't touch it.

If it gets touched AT ALL, it's going to be by HIM.

I'm not in Ohio. If the gun isn't on my person when I interact with the officer then the complication of concealed carry goes away. We don't have a duty to inform, but if I'm not carrying it's irrelevant.

I should add that I have never been asked to step out of the vehicle since getting my permit.

 

[herrwalther]

Why wait for the PO to get to your window? If I know I'm being pulled over, I grab my wallet from my rear pocket before he's even out off the car. I keep my insurance and registration in my visor that has a fancy little sleeve to hold it, so there's ZERO reason to open my glove box.

Because a rookie cop may get a little antsy seeing you reach for something. 99.9% of the time the person is reaching for their wallet to get their license out of a wallet. Police train for that 0.1% where someone doesn't want to be pulled over and is reaching for a firearm. I do very little unless asked. I will roll down my window, and I will turn on the dome light if it is at night. Other than that, I wait for instructions. I may get a visor sleeve for my insurance and registration though. I like that idea.

One lesson here might be about planning. If you're going to be carrying a gun, it's probably best not to carry your wallet, or anything else you're likely to need to reach for regularly, near your gun. BTW, I wear my gun (I carry whenever I legally can) at my right hip and carry my wallet, with ID and permit, in my left front trouser pocket. There are all kinds of way to get into serious trouble if every time you reach for your wallet it looks like you're going for your gun.

Yes. When I first started carrying I noticed it was hard to reach my wallet with a firearm right there. So I switched to carrying my wallet to the opposite pocket and my cell phone next to my firearm. The side benefit of this is reaching for a wallet on my non dominant side, where MOST people don't carry a firearm. Also most of the time when I am driving, I will put my wallet in the door handle. Just because I don't like sitting on it for long periods of time.

 

[Ironicaintit]

Because a rookie cop may get a little antsy seeing you reach for something.

Very true. Any cop may potentially get real nervous when your hands are moving.

I may get a visor sleeve for my insurance and registration though. I like that idea.

Consider this: even just reaching to your visor has your hands moving, and out of the officers sight.
Might be a derringer up there? Who knows?

I try to be ready to conduct the entire interaction, with my hands visible, and with as little movement as possible. Not always possible, but something to keep in mind.