For the fans of "old" pistols. Finally got a Mauser Broomhandle. Finally!

[tark]

Welcome to the broomhandle club.

Your pistol has seen a lot of service, from the looks of it, please keep it that way. I wouldn't say that if it wasn't numbers matching.

I have two Broomies, a well used but not worn shooter, and one that was never fired after proof testing. It will never be fired. It was the subject of a thread last year.

It sounds like you have taken all the necessary steps to insure safe shooting. Good for you! Too many people just shoot old guns without giving a thought to the gun's condition.

I get the impression you have never fired a Broomhandle. Well, the above posts are quite correct. They have an uncomfortable grip, it's too small and too close to the guard. Your middle finger's knuckle will be battered by the trigger guard. They have a lot of muzzle flip and the web of your hand will be in the same boat as your aforementioned knuckle.

But they're a BLAST to shoot (Pun intentional)!!!They have the muzzle blast and flash of a 357 Snubbie. And enormous penetration.

And you can't rule out that Han Solo look

 

[tark]

. deleting double post

 

[tark]

And then I double posted!!! My head is elsewhere today. Apologies to all. just fixed it

 

[JC111]

Thanks for the info. I will take any and all advice. I have never fired a Broomhandle. Looking forward to it.

 

[RecoilRob]

Please replace any and all springs you can find replacements for! I've got a FedOrd 712 Mauser and it was a hard-kicking nasty shooting thing. At first I thought 'well..that's why people didn't like them'...but got to thinking about it and looking carefully at the locking system, and came to the conclusion that that massive huge hammer does a LOT more than just touch off the round!

My hammer spring felt pretty stiff but I got a fresh one anyhow and was amazed at how much stronger the new one was! Putting it in was like installing a small radius firing pin retainer in a 1911 where the bolt/slide suddenly became much, much harder to pull back when the hammer was down. Turns out the hammer is responsible for some portion of the locking delay and just that one spring turned my hard-kicking nasty gun into a pussycat! It really was amazing, and Gunparts Corp had recoil springs too so I got a fresh one though it was only a little stiffer than the original.

Even if the hammer feels pretty stout to pull back and for sure you know it'll have positive ignition...please replace it with a fresh one and see the difference! You said 'Main spring'...is that the hammer? If so...good, you're well on the right track! Of course, you could do an experiment and shoot the gun with the current springs then replace the hammmer and see what difference it makes..which would be interesting. It's just that I don't think the internals of the gun would appreciate being fired with a weak hammer resisting it opening and will protest by smacking your hand badly. Broomhandles are beautiful pieces of machinery...good on you for choosing one!

 

[Waveski]

My questions were well answered , thanks.

 

[Olympus]

My question is why is Clint's trigger finger buried up to the second knuckle on that trigger?

 

[tark]

RecoilRob, you are quite right about the hammer spring. It is the most important spring in the gun. If it is weak, the barrel / extension unit will unlock too early which leads to excessive velocity of the recoiling bolt, which slams against the bolt stop with too much force.

Notice the word "Slide" is missing. Broomhandles are truly unique pistols, unlike any other. They have two main parts that move during the firing cycle, the barrel/barrel extension unit and the bolt. The former only moves about 1/8 of an inch, unlocking the the gun. the bolt continues rearward, doing the rest of the work.

It is a complicated design, but reliable and quite strong.

This is what a new one looks like, never fired after proof testing.

 

[tark]

oops. forgot the pics.

 

[unspellable]

As a (very) long time C96 shooter I never noticed the recoil as being any worse than any other pistol. The real danger is with a rifle stock. if you put your thumb over the top of the wrist as with a rifle the hammer is liable to leave a big goose egg on your thumb.

Re springs: spring strength has no significant effect on upper velocity or unlocking delay. (On any recoil operated pistol.) The job of the recoil spring is to bring the bolt down to a low velocity before it hits the end of travel. If the upper velocity is higher you need a stronger spring.

Point to check before firing is the little block in the rear of the bolt that retains the recoil spring. Word on the street is they can develop cracks.

 

[barnbwt]

A stiffer spring won't keep the action closed longer (i.e. it won't stop a 'kaboom') but it will slow things down to safe levels before they impact on the frame stops, which is really the weak point in the old Mauser guns.

I felt the recoil was so painful because of;
-Ridiculously high bore axis puts a lot of torque in the shooter's grip
-Very small grip handle, I guess people had smaller hands before keyboards
-Sharp-ish slot in the rear of the grip for the stock attachment
-Hard, smooth grips (at least on mine; the Red 9 grips look a bit fatter, and often have texturing)

Basically the same issues a pearl-handled K-frame 357 has

At the end of the day, the recoil & discomfort aren't unbearable, or even really anything to brag about; but compare the gun to a Tokarev or CZ52 shooting the same round, and you really appreciate just how much the Mauser layout makes it shoot like a much more powerful cartridge. I have read that there is apparently some technique involved to the grip, and that the grip is designed for shooters to rock their wrists forward a bit more than we today are accustomed (think tea-pitcher), which allows the gun to recoil upward more freely and supposedly makes it a generally more pleasant experience for the hand.

 

[tark]

With all due respect, Unspellable you are dead wrong about the strength of the hammer spring and its function in delaying the initial movement of the barrel extension/bolt assembly

If the bolt is coming back too fast, it is because the hammer spring isn't strong enough to delay unlocking long enough. Read post # 30. There is a reason why the bolt was much harder to pull back after installing a new hammer spring. It took more force to unlock the mechanism and allow the bolt's rearward travel.

If the hammer spring is too weak it takes less force to unlock the gun which means it will happen too quickly, as in faster. This accelerates the speed of the bolt which causes the next problem:

Battering of the barrel extension around the bolt stop area. The stop itself is hardened steel. This is by design. The softer steel of the rear barrel extension can stretch and eventually crack, stopping the gun from firing. But nothing blows up or leaves the gun at high speed.

You must remember that C-96s are rather strange contraptions, they simply just don't function like other autos. But they are a very strong design. If anyone doesn't believe that look at the last round they were chambered for, the 9X25 Export Mauser. A 128 Grain bullet at 1360 FPS.

However, perhaps more than other auto's, spring strength is critical.

 

[unspellable]

It occurs to me that we are talking about a bolo here. The standard C96 has a larger grip.
The 9 mm export Mauser cartridge was chambered in the Export Mauser pistol which is a different pistol than the C96. That said, the C96 is a strong pistol.
The little recoil spring retainer is hardened but the word on the street was that it would crystallize with age and crack. Whether this is true or not I don't have an opinion on, it's one of those things you hear. Easy to inspect it.
As for the springs. the main spring (hammer) does resist the initial rearward movement of the upper along with the recoil spring. The point that almost every one overlooks on any recoil operated pistol is that the cartridge impulse imparts a force of several hundred pounds so the difference between say a 25 and a 30 lb spring is insignificant. The upper velocity will only be in the 10 to 20 fps range because the impulse lasts for only a fraction of a millisecond. Its the mass of the upper that determines velocity for a given cartridge. The recoil spring is generally chosen to slow the upper before it hits the stop.

 

[unspellable]

PS. The luger might be the touchiest pistol for springs. Georg Luger said, "The springs have to be right."

 

[Panzerschwein]

I sure wish a company would make replicas! In 9mm!

 

[JC111]

Tark that is a very nice Broomhandle. I own a museum quality Colt Model 1917. It's always nice to have one in the collection. I would love to have a pristine Broomhandle and ,perhaps, one day I will.

 

[Old Guy]

Winston Churchill carried one in the Boar War. There must be a book on his time there?

 

[yugorpk]

One of the first guns I ever fired was a schnellfeuer M32 in the hills around Los Angeles that my great grandfather had confiscated from someone when he was an LA county deputy sheriff . What happened to that gun when he died no one knows.

 

[tark]

Once again unspellable, with respect, you need to learn a little more about these guns. There is much misinformation in your post. You are quite right that we are talking about a Bolo model here, but its functional dynamics are identical to the full size C-96.

The Export Mauser is NOT any different from the standard C-96 in any way shape or form, other than markings. You can find a picture of one on page 123 of the book "System Mauser" by Brethed and Schroeder. Or just Google it.

I do not know what you mean by "Recoil spring retainer". There is no such part in the exploded view. If you mean the bolt stop, you are correct about it's hardness, but I have never heard of one crystallizing. I rarely pay attention to words on the street.

The mainspring (hammer) is the only spring in play during the first 1/8 inch of barrel extension travel. The recoil spring in the bolt only comes into play once the barrel/extension comes to a stop.

Those several hundred pounds of force you mention is probably a low figure. But whatever it is you must realize that it is working against mechanical advantages and leverages provided by carefully engineered interconnected parts. The strength of the spring IS critical. I can make ten pounds hold up 100 pounds, using a lever, if I place the fulcrum point close enough to the 100 pounds. But if I remove even a few ounces from the ten pounds the whole things collapses. Think of the 10 pounds as the hammer spring and the 100 as the rearward thrust on the upper. The principals of mechanical advantage and leverage in this analogy are identical, only the parts look different. If you remove a few "pounds" from the hammer spring, it will most certainly change the dynamics, for the worse.

The mass of the upper that determines the velocity of a given cartridge I'm pretty sure you meant to say that the mass of the upper is a determining factor in how fast and quickly it begins to move rearward. It certainly has nothing to do with the velocity of the bullet.

As for the recoil spring being chosen to slow the upper before it hits the stop,...ahhhh....no. You're forgetting that broomies are different from other automatics. The recoil spring has nothing to do until the "Upper" has come to a complete stop. Then its function is to cycle the bolt.

John

 

[1KPerDay]

Beauty! Love the 1000 meter sights. Wonder if anyone every tried using them. LOL

 

[tark]

Actually, I have tried them extensively on my shooter grade C-96 and other broomies I have shot. I have over 4000 rounds through my gun, in the last few years. The sights are a joke, as one might expect, because the pistol itself is simply not accurate enough to hit anything man sized beyond a hundred yards or so. At least the ones I have fired weren't. A thousand yards? Maybe a school bus with a lucky shot. The stock helped somewhat when mounted (actually a lot) but the accuracy level of the pistol itself was the limiting factor. I cant imagine that tiny little round nose bullet arriving at the thousand yard line with much authority, anyway.

I sometimes drool at the thought of cleaning the cosmoline, or whatever kind of brown grease it is, from my new gun and shooting it. The inside of the gun and the bore are covered with it. Only the outside was wiped clean. How would a brand new, 95 year old gun shoot? I will never know; I promised the dying man I got it from I would never shoot it.

Damn!

 

[tark]

That's a super beautiful gun, JC111. And pre-dating my Mauser. Stunning!

 

[barnbwt]

As for the recoil spring being chosen to slow the upper before it hits the stop,...ahhhh....no. You're forgetting that broomies are different from other automatics. The recoil spring has nothing to do until the "Upper" has come to a complete stop. Then its function is to cycle the bolt.

I, at least, was referring to the springs that resist blowback/recoil force in general, not specifically the hammer spring, which as you state does have an especially prominent role on the Mauser.

9mm Parabellum has approximately 4500lbs of bolt thrust, for what it's worth. I doubt an extra 10lbs of spring, or even 100lbs through mechanical advantage (that would make it impossible to manually cycle the gun, btw) contributes greatly to the early-cycle dynamics of the breech-timing. Force equals mass times acceleration though, so I know adding a third more mass would reduce the acceleration proportionally. I do believe a stiff spring would have a large effect on the overall dynamics of the cycle, though, absorbing a proportionately larger share of the cycle's energy before it comes to rest & rebounds off the stops, and generally accelerating the overall rate of fire.

TCB

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Definite yes to replacing original hammer and bolt return springs on a old Mauser C96. Even though a weak hammer sspring will still pop a primer that is not its only function. The hammer spring does add to the delay in opening the action. A new bolt return spring insures that the bolt positively closes and chambers the round. I handload for mine and the original weak bolt return spring wouldn't always close fully. The new one fixed that.

BTW with my C96 I find it easier to cycle the action by manually cocking the hammer first.

 

[tark]

Remember, that 4500 pounds of force is pushing in both directions. Rearward, against over a pound of mass, and forward, against a bullet weighing 1/5 of an ounce. The lighter object moves further and faster and is out the end of the barrel almost before the barrel extension even starts to move. Pressure drops off before the barrel extension has completed its travel, and the hammer spring takes over to slow the barrel extension as unlocking occurs. Spring strength at this instant is critically important. Weak spring, too much speed as the bolt moves rearward. This leads to trouble......