For the fans of "old" pistols. Finally got a Mauser Broomhandle. Finally!

[tark]

Jim, until you post a link or a video or some pictures, or SOMETHING to support your claim, I cannot believe it.

Are you saying you filled a .45 barrel up with 7 cast bullets, chambered a ball round, and all you got was eight bullets in the sandbox and an undamaged pistol? I blew the unsupported area of of the case in my 1911 by firing it with just one bullet stuck in the barrel, right ahead if the chamber. Ruined a mag, both grips, and had to dig some wood out of my hand.

If the bullet moves it generates kinetic energy which is transformed into heat energy, which weakens the barrel at that point, resulting in a burst barrel? I also find that impossible to believe. If a moving object with tremendous kinetic energy built up suddenly stops, that energy is transformed into heat?

OK. If I take a sledge hammer swung by a seven foot Swede and hit , say, an anvil....why don't I feel any heat at the point of impact? Try it yourself. There is no heat. Not even a little bit.

Even if your statement was correct, the heat generated by all of this could not be conducted through the various mediums involved fast enough to cause the condition you describe.

Try this, to illustrate my point. Take any high powered rifle. The heat in that bore generated by firing will be well over 1000 degrees. Place your hand on the barrel ahead of the chamber, Fire it. Notice how it takes a few seconds before you feel the heat?

I don't have any fancy degree in thermodynamics or the four stages of Ballistics, but I read a lot and I study..... It is my hobby and passion.)

Awaiting those links or pics or videos, Jim. Until then, live long and prosper and all that other Vulcan crap....and good shooting

 

[tark]

And I forgot to address your last paragraph, Jim. I'll say it again: Why does an auto pistol malfunction when you feed it too light (as in lower pressure) loads? If breech pressure makes no difference it should function, but we both know it will not

 

[unspellable]

Impulse not pressure

Tark, if you reduce bullet weight, velocity, or powder charge, you reduce the impulse. less impulse, less recoil, less recoil, less upper velocity. maybe it's enough to operate the action, maybe not. again, pressure is irrelevant.

Factory shot gun cartridges typically run about the same pressure for both heavy and light loads. Pressure does not correlate well to how heavy a load is. Pressure often remains fairly high with light loads due to using faster powder.

 

[tark]

If you reduce any of those things you reduce pressure. THAT'S why your impluse goes down. :banghead:

I know absolutely nothing about shotguns, but I suspect you statement is false. But Like I said, I am totally ignorant about the subject. I own 71 guns. Two are shotguns

 

[unspellable]

again

Cart's in front of the horse. Impulse operates the action, NOT pressure.

It's quite possible to have a light load with higher pressure than a heavy load.

Commercial ammo is generally loaded to a nice working pressure that is quite often NOT reduced for a light load. You use a faster powder loaded to the same pressure for the lighter load because you can use less powder. that shaves 0.005 cents off a round. That counts if you are a big ammo company.

I'll give an extreme example. I had to do some reliability analysis on the space shuttle boosters. Bejeesus lot of impulse but only a a couple thousand pounds pressure.

it's my observation that an awful lot of shooters have pressure on the brain so to speak. There are a lot of factors at play in wear and tear on a firearm, not just pressure.

A gas operated gun is operated by pressure, but it's the pressure in the actuating piston, not the chamber. by proper choice of orifice you can accommodate any chamber pressure. So once again, chamber pressure is not really relevant given an orifice to match it.

 

[unspellable]

PS size of powder grain

You've heard of 18 wheelers. It took a 32 wheeler to carry a single powder grain with its casing for the shuttle booster. That's a BIG powder grain.

 

[unspellable]

simple experiment

1. Make sure your C96 is unloaded.

2. Hold it by the grip with one hand, with the heel of the other hand push the muzzle back, firmly.

3. Hold it by the muzzle, with the other hand run a ram rod down the barrel against the breech face and push firmly.

4. report back.

 

[barnbwt]

OK. If I take a sledge hammer swung by a seven foot Swede and hit , say, an anvil....why don't I feel any heat at the point of impact? Try it yourself. There is no heat. Not even a little bit.

I take it you've never beat on anything with a large hammer before, or you'd never suggest swinging a large hammer directly into an anvil . The impacted material darn sure evolves a lot of heat, it just dissipates into the giant anvil heat sink. The so-called "kinetic" armor piercing tank killer rounds operate on this directly, as do explosively-formed penetrators; get a lump of material going really fast, and whatever it crashes into is melted & burned through with a vengeance as the penetrator's kinetic energy is converted into thermal transfer --basically a directed energy weapon (the super-duper high speed railgun rounds basically vaporize upon impact, nothing is left of them but a jet of hot plasma that burns a hole through armor & splatters everything on the far side with molten steel)

I think what may be missed here is just how large a fraction of a bullet's velocity is picked up in its first fraction of movement; interrupt that, and you get very little kinetic energy that can begin deforming things (and recall that peak pressures are reached very early on in pistol rounds, when the bullet is essentially still motionless, meaning that alone is not sufficient to deform the bullet or chamber/breech)

TCB

 

[RecoilRob]

Back when Ruger introduced the P85 they did some pretty extreme tests to it. First they fired about 20K rounds with no measurable wear. Then they cut the ejection port through so the slide only had one rail and did another 20K...still OK. Then they threaded the barrel and inserted a rod that came within a few thousandths of the nose of a 124 Nato round and fired it. Blew out the extractor and burned the crap out of things...but with a replacement extractor and barrel the gun was back to running fine. It did NOT cycle with the plugged barrel...as we know pressure with no movement creates no work hence no momentum.

Pressure IS required to create momentum but I agree that whether an action will function is a matter of momentum generated no matter how you get it. High pressure and light bullet can create the same momentum as a heavy bullet with mild pressure...all the same to the gun unless the pressure gets so high that it fails the containment vessel.

This is also why I enjoy shooting 147's more than 115's as they're generally more pleasant to shoot with less flash and blast. My Mauser works great with a heavy 154 cast bullet at moderate velocity which I load to a long OAL to better fill the magazine which helps it feed more reliably.

 

[tark]

Uh..... not sure what your little experiment is supposed to show me, Unspellable. I pushed on the muzzle with my left hand while holding the grip with my right. The upper unlocks from the lower. But when I hold the muzzle with my left hand, the lower snaps back to the locked position by itself the moment you remove your hand. I will need three hands to complete the experiment, but I don't need to. The final step will push the bolt rearward. Yeah....so what is the point of all of this?

I know nothing about Space Shuttle boosters, or what they call a "powder Grain" but that is completely off topic, so let's drop that. We're discussing guns, not space shuttles.

Barnbwt, there is a lot of difference between a DU penetrator from an M-1 travelling at over 4000 FPS, and a 230 gr bullet in a pistol barrel that is travelling at three or four hundred FPS at the point of max pressure. That bullet is never going to generate much kinetic energy or heat by ramming into anything. Certainly not enough to melt steel.

The 45ACP reaches maximum pressures after the bullet has traveled about a half an inch, according to most pressure curves I looked at. Maximum velocity is reached at the muzzle, although the curve flattens, as the bullet travels down the bore.

I just finished hitting my anvil with my sledge hammer. I'm not a seven foot Swede, so maybe I didn't hit it hard enough, but I could detect no heat. I'm sorry. Maybe I didn't "feel" fast enough before the heat dissipated. I know that if you repeatedly pound on the anvil with hammer, rapidly, you will generate heat. But we're not talking about repeater blows.

I saw that test Recoil Rob, and the results were predictable. All it proved is how strong Rugers are, and that anything which delays or stops the bullet travel will result in something breaking, usually resulting in a blown case at it's weakest area of support.

I'm still waiting for Jim to put up some evidence to support his claim that rendering the bullet immovable will cause no damage, and that the gun will slowly leak off the pressure.

 

[unspellable]

If you hold the grip and shove the muzzle back the upper moves relative to the frame and unlocks as it does from recoil.

If you hold the muzzle and shove a ram rod against the breech face you are exerting a force against the breech face as the pressure does. but there is no movement, no action, no unlocking.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

on Bolos being nasty recoilers

A friend had a 9mm Bolo restoration that was a beautiful lady with a vicious bite. Recoil was unpleasant. Worse was that the recoil would drive the safety into the web of his hand into a semi-"on" position so when he next pulled the trigger, the hammer was held by the safety; if he pulled the safety down to "off", it released the hammer to fire with his thumb in the path of the bolt. I checked his bolo and my fullsize and replicated the problem (safety "off", cocking the gun, pushing slightly up on the safety, pulling the trigger, then pulling the safety "off"). For that problem, my fix was push the safety up fully "on" to reset the hammer, then "off" to resume firing. Or have the web of the hand between thumb and index finger liposuctioned. (He traded the gun off.)

on C96 recoil management

Everything I learned from my 1911A1, H&K USP, I had to fergit with the C96; single spring (one slide recoil and return sping) rules don't apply to C96 pistol any more than they apply to Remington Model 8 rifle and other odd ball recoil designs.
The C96 is basically a one of its kind pistol design.

The C96 hammer spring is the primary recoil spring dampening the recoil of the barrel extension and locked bolt for about 0.13".
The recoiling bolt is further dampened by the energy required to cock the hammer and compress the bolt spring.
The C96 bolt spring is the recoil spring for the unlocked bolt and is the bolt return spring.
The C96 bolt must travel about 1.75" to eject the fired case and allow the magazine follower to lock the bolt open on last shot.
The C96 bolt has to travel about 2.43" to impact the bolt stop.
The C96 bolt travel includes about 0.68" over-travel.

I believe with proper ammo and springs, the bolt should never impact the bolt stop but start to return somewhere within the over-travel space.

 

[tark]

Interesting theory Carl, about the bolt never hitting the bolt stop if everything is in spec. My shooter has new springs so I took some marking fluid and marked up the bolt stop only, where the bolt would impact.

Well, it does hit but I don't know how hard. It took a few shots before the bolt stopped removing any more marking fluid.

Sounds like that Bolo needed new springs!

 

[tark]

OK, unspellable, I misunderstood the proper procedure. You are absolutely correct that holding the gun by the barrel and pushing on a cleaning rod in the bore will result in no movement by anything.

But that is a ridiculous scenario. I hold my gun by the grip when I shoot it. Hold it by the grip and do the cleaning rod rod thing and the upper will unlock and the bolt will travel rearward and hit the bolt stop.

If we're going to discuss the dynamics of the operation of the thing, lets keep within the boundaries of reality. If you clamp the barrel of the C-96 in a padded vise and fire it, nothing will move.

But that's not a realistic way to operate the thing, is it?

 

[unspellable]

realistic?

I'm not talking about realistic operation. the object is to illustrate the point that it is recoil operated, not pressure operated.

 

[Jim K]

Hi, Tark,

Well, I can't control what you think or believe, but I did those experiments as described and didn't need any Swedes or sledge hammers.

The problem in understanding recoil operation for most folks is that recoil is the result of bullet movement. In a "recoil operated" pistol, or a Browning A5 "recoil operated" shotgun, the gun is operated by the recoil resulting from the projectile moving forward. Since the gas in the chamber exerts pressure on the projectile, the gun is INdirectly operated by gas pressure. But only indirectly. If the locked breech is not opened, it doesn't matter how much pressure there is, nothing moves and the gun won't operate.

That was what I tested with a pistol in which the bullet was not allowed to move, hence there was no bullet movement and so no recoil and no opening. The pressure in the chamber is exerted in all directions; it alone will NOT open the locked breech. If you want to read about some interesting experiments look at Hatcher's Notebook, in which he gets basically the same results with a M1903 rifle in which he blocked the barrel. Of course, you will argue that a M1903 rifle is not a pistol, but in fact the principles are the same. If the bullet doesn't move, the gun does not recoil.

Jim

 

[tark]

Jim, I never said the gun would recoil, or unlock, or do anything other than blow up like a bomb, if the bullet is rendered immovable. In the 21 years I worked for Les, I have seen about twenty or so guns that were severely damaged or completely trashed. In every case, it was traced to one of three things; too much powder, wrong powder, or BORE OBSTRUCTIONS. All three raise pressures.

Anything that impedes the bullet moving will raise pressures and possibly damage the gun.

I first read Hatcher's notebook forty years ago. It is indeed fascinating. You are quite right that if nothing moves, nothing recoils. I never said otherwise. What I did say is that if nothing moves, pressures in the barrel go up and destruction of something is the usual result. Hatcher's Springfield may not have recoiled but is damn sure DID blow up.

 

[tark]

Unspellable, I give up trying to figure out exactly WHAT you are trying to illustrate. Your arguments make no sense to me, and I am sure mine make no sense to you. We can, as gentlemen, agree to disagree Let the court of public opinion decide who makes the most sense.

We've all had our say, and tried as best we could to prove our assertions. Nobody is going to change anybody else's mind, so...

Probably time for the moderator to shut this thread down.

 

[JC111]

Wow. I just wanted to show off my Mauser after having lusted for one for years. I had no idea I was going to start a monster.

 

[Jim K]

Sorry the thread got hi-jacked. One more note and I am out of here as obviously old myths are more acceptable than truth.

In Hatcher's experiment with the Springfield, the rifle did NOT blow up, nor was it damaged. At least some of the gas remained contained until he knocked the bolt handle up with a block of wood, at which point the bolt flew open and the pressure was released harmlessly.

Jim

 

[barnbwt]

Anything that impedes the bullet moving will raise pressures and possibly damage the gun.

When a shotgun hits a stuck wad 20" down the barrel and goose-eggs or bursts the barrel, it isn't because the breech pressure skyrocketed, pressures have fallen enormously by that point --that's the point of the experiment, that the breech pressure alone isn't what's killing the guns, but rather the bullet's accumulated kinetic energy being directed sideways at the moment it hits the obstruction, dumping heat and inertia into the barrel steel at the obstruction & bursting it.

 

[tark]

Actually, JC111, this was a very polite exchange compared to some threads I have seen. Nobody called anyone else an "idiot" or a "moron". The word "Stupid" is nowhere to be found.

This was just three guys that couldn't agree on what the facts were.

Sorry we hi-jacked your thread, but it is a very common occurrence here. The Moderator usually lets it go on unless it strays far afield. We strayed here, but we were mostly talking about the dynamics of C-96 operation, so we weren't chopped off at the knees.

Good shooting.

 

[rklessdriver]

Congrats and welcome to the Broomhandle club.

Here's mine, came from an Estate Sale as well.



Will

 

[JC111]

Oh not complaining. It's been interesting. I actually pulled out my copy of "Hatcher's Notebook" as well to look at his findings.

 

[JC111]

I'm back on dayshift as of today. I brought mine into work to show it to co-workers. The guys who are gun-nuts. My employer is not gun phobic so I'm not violating any policy. The Broomhandle is famous and everyone wants to look at it. Part of the fun of owning a piece of history.