From your LEO experience when pulled over
- Thread starter Sniper X
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Deanimator
Member
Here's where that goes off the rails, and way too often:
"Why do you have a gun???"
"Why are you carrying it so people can see it??? That's against the law!!!" (In states where open carry is lawful)
"Are you some kind of criminal???"
"Are you planning to shoot somebody???"
"Only criminals carry guns!!!"
"You don't need a gun, that's why WE'RE here!!!"
"I don't care what the law is, I'm going to stop you EVERY TIME!!!"
"I could blow your $$%*$_% head off!!!"
"I'll just make something up to charge you with!!!"
"You have hollowpoints, those are illegal!!!"
"You can't carrry a loaded gun over state lines!!!"
"Your permit/license is from (state with reciprocity), you can't carry here!!!"
I don't need to be condescendingly and threateningly lectured [erroneously] to at gunpoint. Do so and I'm going to move mountains to damage your career afterward. Strangely, some [not all] cops think that's horribly wrong. The ones who do, seem to post frequently on SecondCityCop blog, Glocktalk and Officer.com.
Deanimator
Member
Well planned and thought out with my lawyer.
A few years ago, it appeared as though I might need to put it into effect. Information possibly emanating from a police agency was posted in usenet in order to facilitate an attack on me by White supremacists. The trail was too hard to follow, despite some interesting clues, so I decided that the proper solution was simply to shoot anybody who tried to act on the information.
I've never shot an armed robber. I plan for that contingency as well.
Until you actually do it, it's only so many words.
That said I don't think I'd enjoy a roadside tirade by an anti police officer but I'm fairly certain ( well. first I'm fairly certain it wouldn't happen in Colorado) a well written letter to his training officer Cc'd to the Chief of Police and the editor of the local paper would give enough correction to ensure it was a one-time occurance
That said I don't think I'd enjoy a roadside tirade by an anti police officer but I'm fairly certain ( well. first I'm fairly certain it wouldn't happen in Colorado) a well written letter to his training officer Cc'd to the Chief of Police and the editor of the local paper would give enough correction to ensure it was a one-time occurance
natecade1
Member
Why consent to a search
Sometimes it might be in my best interest. And in an urban area such as the nations capital, there will be a few officers present, so I am not concerned about an officer planting evidence. Also I feel if evidence were planted my spotless record, plenty of high profile character references and a good lawyer would clear any resultant charges.
That said and example.
Pulled over in a high-crime area in Prince George's County Maryland just outside D.C. at 2 a.m. on my way to work.
Do not volunteer information. I knew I was going about 40 in a 25 and had literally blown right threw a stop sign without even slowing down.
But I do not give the officer the opportunity to ask if I know why he pulled me over. Instead I ask
"Why did you pull me over sir?"
"You have no taillights on at all, are your lights on?"
"Yes sir, it must be a blown fuse." hand license and reg "the car is registered to my father ____ Cade he lives 2 miles from here, I was staying at my parents house this weekend."
"Where are you going at 2 am?"
"I have to be in work in Frederick at 3, sir"
*2nd car pulls up,
Officer: "I'll be right back" walks back to car.
I relax and forgot to keep my hands on the wheel. One hand drops to waist line. Both officers approach the vehicle,
"KEEP YOUR HANDS WHERE I CAN SEE THEM" draws weapon but does not bear down.
"GET OUT OF THE CAR SLOWLY"
I comply, (after-all it's unlawful to disobey a reasonable command.)
"Please step to the back of the vehicle and put your hands on the roof" (I have a Hatchback, I comply)
3rd car pulls up, 2 Officers exit.
Other two holster weapons.
1st officer pats me down.
2nd officer,
"Do you have a firearm in the car? Why were you reaching down? Do you have a drug problem young man? do you have drugs in the car?" rapid fire questions
"No sir, I apologize for reaching my hand down, I did not mean to alarm you."
"May we search your vehicle?"
At that point I am thinking, I could still get to work on time if I get out of here in 5 minutes, I know he say me run that stop-sign, I don't have my radar detector in this vehicle so he might have tagged me at 40 mph too.
I know I have nothing to hide in my car, and it's small car and won't take long to search, if I refuse the search I'm definitely getting 2 maybe three tickets. And they will wait for K-9 So...
"Yeah, go ahead, I have box-cutter for work in the passenger seat, and a radio underneath the driver's seat."
3 cops search my vehicle, takes about 5 minutes.
1st cop lectures me for a couple minutes on why I should have kept my hands on the wheel, says his partner wants him to give me 3 tickets, and wait for k-9 but he's going to let me go.
I think in that situation consenting to a search got my out of a traffic citation or two, and I still got to work on time.
So all you hard-core "my rights first" people can continue to not cooperate with police and I'll continue to be a law abiding person with nothing to hide and I would bet you I won't have any problems.
Sometimes it might be in my best interest. And in an urban area such as the nations capital, there will be a few officers present, so I am not concerned about an officer planting evidence. Also I feel if evidence were planted my spotless record, plenty of high profile character references and a good lawyer would clear any resultant charges.
That said and example.
Pulled over in a high-crime area in Prince George's County Maryland just outside D.C. at 2 a.m. on my way to work.
Do not volunteer information. I knew I was going about 40 in a 25 and had literally blown right threw a stop sign without even slowing down.
But I do not give the officer the opportunity to ask if I know why he pulled me over. Instead I ask
"Why did you pull me over sir?"
"You have no taillights on at all, are your lights on?"
"Yes sir, it must be a blown fuse." hand license and reg "the car is registered to my father ____ Cade he lives 2 miles from here, I was staying at my parents house this weekend."
"Where are you going at 2 am?"
"I have to be in work in Frederick at 3, sir"
*2nd car pulls up,
Officer: "I'll be right back" walks back to car.
I relax and forgot to keep my hands on the wheel. One hand drops to waist line. Both officers approach the vehicle,
"KEEP YOUR HANDS WHERE I CAN SEE THEM" draws weapon but does not bear down.
"GET OUT OF THE CAR SLOWLY"
I comply, (after-all it's unlawful to disobey a reasonable command.)
"Please step to the back of the vehicle and put your hands on the roof" (I have a Hatchback, I comply)
3rd car pulls up, 2 Officers exit.
Other two holster weapons.
1st officer pats me down.
2nd officer,
"Do you have a firearm in the car? Why were you reaching down? Do you have a drug problem young man? do you have drugs in the car?" rapid fire questions
"No sir, I apologize for reaching my hand down, I did not mean to alarm you."
"May we search your vehicle?"
At that point I am thinking, I could still get to work on time if I get out of here in 5 minutes, I know he say me run that stop-sign, I don't have my radar detector in this vehicle so he might have tagged me at 40 mph too.
I know I have nothing to hide in my car, and it's small car and won't take long to search, if I refuse the search I'm definitely getting 2 maybe three tickets. And they will wait for K-9 So...
"Yeah, go ahead, I have box-cutter for work in the passenger seat, and a radio underneath the driver's seat."
3 cops search my vehicle, takes about 5 minutes.
1st cop lectures me for a couple minutes on why I should have kept my hands on the wheel, says his partner wants him to give me 3 tickets, and wait for k-9 but he's going to let me go.
I think in that situation consenting to a search got my out of a traffic citation or two, and I still got to work on time.
So all you hard-core "my rights first" people can continue to not cooperate with police and I'll continue to be a law abiding person with nothing to hide and I would bet you I won't have any problems.
Deanimator
Member
The same thing applies to self-defense with a firearm.
My only experience of Colorado is three hours in the Denver airport about fifteen years ago. I can't say what Colorado cops would or wouldn't do.
I wouldn't have expected it in the places where such documented occurrences took place either, but they did, ranging from Fairfax County, Virginia to small towns in northwest and northeast Ohio. In some of these cases, not only did the chain of command not correct the officer, they stood by the behavior and are being sued, along with the officers in question.
You can allow yourself to be bullied and intimidated or you can stand up. I vote "stand up" every time. The alternative NEVER works out well over the long run. If the department won't take substantive disciplinary action, negative reinforcement needs to be applied via the civil court system, especially against the officers themselves. If there are no negative consequences for bad behavior, the behavior doesn't cease. On the contrary, it escalates.
Deanimator
Member
You're NOT a "law abiding person". You're somebody who speeds, runs stop signs and makes "furtive movements" when stopped. You yourself gave the police justification for giving you a [deserved] hard time. People who don't break the law don't need "breaks" from the police.
If they stop me, the odds are it's going to be for a fishing expedition. I have NO reason or intention to "cooperate" with that. I will comply with the law to the letter and stand on my rights to the letter. I am perfectly willing to be falsely arrested and miss work in order to preserve the rights that people died to protect. The civil courts offer me a variety of remedies, both from the municipality and from the officers as individuals.
Don't stick you hand in the deep fryer then complain that your hand hurts.
"twenty-something guy with insecurity and control issues"
The last time I checked it is the officers duty to take control of the situation for everyones safety.
"an associate's degree and a 9mm pistol telling you what's going to happen"
So because he doesnt have a masters degree you act as if its an insult to say this, I could also say that the majority of people with degrees have alot less common sense, the more time in college the less common sense they demonstrate. Also most police departments havent carried a 9mm in years, most use .40 or .45 handguns.
"Just do what the funny little fellow says, be a pal, convince him fast that you're actually one of the good guys"
The most important thing you could have advised anyone instead of posting all of the belittling insults is to obey the law, dont drink and drive, dont get pulled over for driving irratic, and dont take or possess illegal substances, and you wont have any problems with the police.
In all of the years Ive been driving, Ive consented to the few searches that have been requested without hesitation, why, I have nothing to hide. Also I tell the officer that pulls me over right away if I am carrying, and offer to hand it to him if he requests.
The simple fact is that if you possess illegal drugs, are driving under the influence of any substances, are in possession of stolen property, or are carrying illegally, or any one of a million other blatently illegal activities, you deserve what you get when you are arrested and/or convicted of this.
The last time I checked it is the officers duty to take control of the situation for everyones safety.
"an associate's degree and a 9mm pistol telling you what's going to happen"
So because he doesnt have a masters degree you act as if its an insult to say this, I could also say that the majority of people with degrees have alot less common sense, the more time in college the less common sense they demonstrate. Also most police departments havent carried a 9mm in years, most use .40 or .45 handguns.
"Just do what the funny little fellow says, be a pal, convince him fast that you're actually one of the good guys"
The most important thing you could have advised anyone instead of posting all of the belittling insults is to obey the law, dont drink and drive, dont get pulled over for driving irratic, and dont take or possess illegal substances, and you wont have any problems with the police.
In all of the years Ive been driving, Ive consented to the few searches that have been requested without hesitation, why, I have nothing to hide. Also I tell the officer that pulls me over right away if I am carrying, and offer to hand it to him if he requests.
The simple fact is that if you possess illegal drugs, are driving under the influence of any substances, are in possession of stolen property, or are carrying illegally, or any one of a million other blatently illegal activities, you deserve what you get when you are arrested and/or convicted of this.
Deanimator
Member
Because they said so, literally DOZENS of times, accompanied by what they believe to be directions and maps to my house?
Apparently members of the National Alliance don't like having the predilection of neo-Nazis for pedophilia pointed out.
PM me, and I'll provide you links to the relevant information.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
In the ten years of hanging around TFL and THR, I must have read fifty or more threads of this sort. I'm puzzled. What is it about some folks that brings out all these problems and hassles?
I've been driving cars since 1946. I've been known to be truly enthusiastic in doing so. I doubt many folks ever got a ticket for 130 in a 55. (Well, I'd just washed the car, and I was drying it off.) I never got caught in my '67 Camaro with the 427 in it.
My Chev-Healey got stopped a lot, but that was because the cop wanted to look under the hood--which meant I had to clean off a bunch of drool and slobber.
But I've been stopped for speeding in Florida, Georgia, Louisiana and Texas. No hassles on the highway, no abuse, never a request to search. Since Texas started the CHL thing, there's even less interest in me than ever, other than an occasional roadside bull session about guns.
The only hard time I ever got was in 1959 in Tallahassee, Florida, from a local yokel. And that was only because he'd had no luck in hustling on the young lady I was going with at the time. And, well, okay, an NYC cop chewed on me for minor stuff one time but just walked off, shaking his head.
I dunno. I figure folks maybe oughta think about how they look, act and talk.
I've been driving cars since 1946. I've been known to be truly enthusiastic in doing so. I doubt many folks ever got a ticket for 130 in a 55. (Well, I'd just washed the car, and I was drying it off.) I never got caught in my '67 Camaro with the 427 in it.
My Chev-Healey got stopped a lot, but that was because the cop wanted to look under the hood--which meant I had to clean off a bunch of drool and slobber.But I've been stopped for speeding in Florida, Georgia, Louisiana and Texas. No hassles on the highway, no abuse, never a request to search. Since Texas started the CHL thing, there's even less interest in me than ever, other than an occasional roadside bull session about guns.
The only hard time I ever got was in 1959 in Tallahassee, Florida, from a local yokel. And that was only because he'd had no luck in hustling on the young lady I was going with at the time. And, well, okay, an NYC cop chewed on me for minor stuff one time but just walked off, shaking his head.
I dunno. I figure folks maybe oughta think about how they look, act and talk.
mljdeckard
Member
natecade, they played you like a fiddle. They bullied you with good cop/bad cop and you bought the whole thing.
When I was .....somewhat younger, I was going home from a job where I worked a week at a time out in the desert at about 2 am, and I got pulled over by the UHP for 20 over. I had my S&W Sigma in the door pocket, and Remington 700 PSS in the trunk. I looked like a 20 something kid who had just spent week in the desert. He was absolutely CERTAIN that I had some pot in the car. (If he had pulled over any of the guys I was working with at the time, he would have been right.) So, he asks me if he can search, and I have to make a decision. Do I stay stubborn, make him mad, refuse the search, and see what happens, or let him search, and have him be so impressed with my taste in firearms and the fact that I do not in fact have pot in the vehicle that he shakes my hand and lets me go? I let him search. After digging through all my gear and clearing two weapons, finding nothing, he askes, "So, why all the guns?"
I replied that in my work, I have some spare time and I like to shoot. He nods, and says, "Well, I'm writing you a ticket for speeding." I got my bubble busted. He could care less that I was clean. He already had me for speeding whether I cooperated or not. He was fishing to see WHAT ELSE he could get me for. He took so much time with the search, there was no way I was walking away with nothing.
The same summer, I met a guy who was homeless. I asked him what the story was. He agreed to take a college friend's car across the country for a few dollars. The friend filled it up with his stuff, and agreed to meet him in California in a week. In the Utah desert, he got pulled over for a bad taillight. The cop asked to search, and he let him. How was he supposed to know that the 'friend' had stashed 10 oz of bud in the shoebox? The only thing he was guilty of was choosing bad friends. It was a second strike conviction for him, when he got out of the county lockup, his family wouldn't talk to him, forget the friend, and I'm telling you right now, the Utah desert is a bad place to be homeless.
Take some law classes at your community college. It will open your eyes. Police are trained to make arrests. They are trained to pressure, deceive, and mislead you to give up your rights when they are at the limit of what they are allowed to ask you for. This isn't necessarily bad, it's good police work. Watch them on TV. For a cop to enter your home, they need, exigency, a warrant, or permission. When was the last time you saw a TV cop fail to get into someone's home because they didn't have a warrant? A threat, a promise to disrupt their business, to embarrass them in front of their family, to call a judge and play the waiting game usually gets them permission.
YOU have to decide that your right to privacy is just as important as your right to keep and bear arms. It is one of the reasons your RKBA is so important. Standing by your rights, protecting your privacy, and MAKING COPS FOLLOW THE LAW AND THE CONSTITUTION doesn't make you a jerk, a suspect, or a bad citizen at all. It means you know and value your rights. Saying "I'll let them search to show I'm on their side" is just like saying; "I'll let them ban semi-autos and high-capacity magazines because we all need to give something to fight crime."
When I was .....somewhat younger, I was going home from a job where I worked a week at a time out in the desert at about 2 am, and I got pulled over by the UHP for 20 over. I had my S&W Sigma in the door pocket, and Remington 700 PSS in the trunk. I looked like a 20 something kid who had just spent week in the desert. He was absolutely CERTAIN that I had some pot in the car. (If he had pulled over any of the guys I was working with at the time, he would have been right.) So, he asks me if he can search, and I have to make a decision. Do I stay stubborn, make him mad, refuse the search, and see what happens, or let him search, and have him be so impressed with my taste in firearms and the fact that I do not in fact have pot in the vehicle that he shakes my hand and lets me go? I let him search. After digging through all my gear and clearing two weapons, finding nothing, he askes, "So, why all the guns?"
I replied that in my work, I have some spare time and I like to shoot. He nods, and says, "Well, I'm writing you a ticket for speeding." I got my bubble busted. He could care less that I was clean. He already had me for speeding whether I cooperated or not. He was fishing to see WHAT ELSE he could get me for. He took so much time with the search, there was no way I was walking away with nothing.
The same summer, I met a guy who was homeless. I asked him what the story was. He agreed to take a college friend's car across the country for a few dollars. The friend filled it up with his stuff, and agreed to meet him in California in a week. In the Utah desert, he got pulled over for a bad taillight. The cop asked to search, and he let him. How was he supposed to know that the 'friend' had stashed 10 oz of bud in the shoebox? The only thing he was guilty of was choosing bad friends. It was a second strike conviction for him, when he got out of the county lockup, his family wouldn't talk to him, forget the friend, and I'm telling you right now, the Utah desert is a bad place to be homeless.
Take some law classes at your community college. It will open your eyes. Police are trained to make arrests. They are trained to pressure, deceive, and mislead you to give up your rights when they are at the limit of what they are allowed to ask you for. This isn't necessarily bad, it's good police work. Watch them on TV. For a cop to enter your home, they need, exigency, a warrant, or permission. When was the last time you saw a TV cop fail to get into someone's home because they didn't have a warrant? A threat, a promise to disrupt their business, to embarrass them in front of their family, to call a judge and play the waiting game usually gets them permission.
YOU have to decide that your right to privacy is just as important as your right to keep and bear arms. It is one of the reasons your RKBA is so important. Standing by your rights, protecting your privacy, and MAKING COPS FOLLOW THE LAW AND THE CONSTITUTION doesn't make you a jerk, a suspect, or a bad citizen at all. It means you know and value your rights. Saying "I'll let them search to show I'm on their side" is just like saying; "I'll let them ban semi-autos and high-capacity magazines because we all need to give something to fight crime."
mljdeckard said:
It's called pro-active policing. This is a highly productive approach, crooks hang themselves. It is not a personal attack.
I have more respect for the guys who just say "NO", than the guys who complain for the next ten years after they agree to a search. You know you can terminate a voluntary search at any point if you change your mind.
mljdeckard
Member
Absolutely. I can't sweat a cop for being a good cop. If I were his boss, I would tell him to stick with what works.
Deanimator
Member
Stupid is as stupid does. If he was smarter, he probably wouldn't be a petty criminal in the first place.
I'm not sure that's really true, and I'm not taking a chance with it. You can stop TALKING any time you want to, but anything you say up to that point is admissible, assuming that all of the proper procedures were followed.
My policy is to NEVER consent to ANY search. There's no upside to consenting and literally an unknowable INFINITY of downsides. You have no REAL idea of why you're being searched, and the police are permitted to lie to you about it. They can't lawfully lie on a search warrant, but they can lie to you to gain consent.
JUST SAY NO.
Travis Bickle
member
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2008
- Messages
- 476
This will explain a lot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA
Yes, I know it's from the ACLU, but if there's anything (they) <immature language removed> are good for it's teaching you how to handle yourself around the cops.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA
Yes, I know it's from the ACLU, but if there's anything (they) <immature language removed> are good for it's teaching you how to handle yourself around the cops.
Last edited by a moderator:
inclinebench
Member
This is something that happened to me about ten years ago. I would like to preface by saying that I am friends with many of the local police, I play sports, hang out, and even drink beer with these guys. However, there are a few overzealous police.
One Christmas day, about 6:55 at night, I was driving my truck with a gun rack in it. I had a 12 gauge in the rack because I spent the entire vacation duck hunting, and I was going the next morning. I was driving too fast when I got pulled over. No problem, I was speeding and I knew it...no argument here. The policeman shines his spotlight into my sideview to keep me pretty blinded...good procedure, no problem with that. He has a trainie, or ride along with him, who stays in the car as the cop approaches, gun drawn. I have my hands up on the wheel, I have a gun in the rack in the back window, I dont want anyone getting jumpy. He comes to my window, and I slowely roll it down one handed. He asks to see my license and registration etc. I hand that over, and he asks if I knew how fast I was going. I said "Yes sir, about 10 over the limit". He said "Yep, ten over exactly". Then he asks me why I was driving so fast, and I said "I had five minutes to get somewhere that was pretty far away, and I did not want to be late, I am a dummy for speeding". He then asks me if I have any firearms in the vehicle. I say "yes". Suddenly his gun is on me. He asks me where it is. I said, "right behind my head in the rack in the window, I assumed you saw that when you pulled me over". He of course said "Yeah I saw that, I meant any other guns". I said no sir, just my duck gun, I am going in the morning". He gave me my ticket and sent me on my way. I just thought it was funny that he asked me if I had any guns in the vehicle, when anyone not blind, would have seen the shotgun in the rack. He apparently was pretty embarresd, as he did not question me about anything else, or ask to see anything else, just gave me my ticket and sent me on my way. I talked to a couple of buddies on the force the next week, and they both said he was showing off for the cute girl on the ridealong. I probably turned him pretty red despite her not being able to hear our exchange.
One Christmas day, about 6:55 at night, I was driving my truck with a gun rack in it. I had a 12 gauge in the rack because I spent the entire vacation duck hunting, and I was going the next morning. I was driving too fast when I got pulled over. No problem, I was speeding and I knew it...no argument here. The policeman shines his spotlight into my sideview to keep me pretty blinded...good procedure, no problem with that. He has a trainie, or ride along with him, who stays in the car as the cop approaches, gun drawn. I have my hands up on the wheel, I have a gun in the rack in the back window, I dont want anyone getting jumpy. He comes to my window, and I slowely roll it down one handed. He asks to see my license and registration etc. I hand that over, and he asks if I knew how fast I was going. I said "Yes sir, about 10 over the limit". He said "Yep, ten over exactly". Then he asks me why I was driving so fast, and I said "I had five minutes to get somewhere that was pretty far away, and I did not want to be late, I am a dummy for speeding". He then asks me if I have any firearms in the vehicle. I say "yes". Suddenly his gun is on me. He asks me where it is. I said, "right behind my head in the rack in the window, I assumed you saw that when you pulled me over". He of course said "Yeah I saw that, I meant any other guns". I said no sir, just my duck gun, I am going in the morning". He gave me my ticket and sent me on my way. I just thought it was funny that he asked me if I had any guns in the vehicle, when anyone not blind, would have seen the shotgun in the rack. He apparently was pretty embarresd, as he did not question me about anything else, or ask to see anything else, just gave me my ticket and sent me on my way. I talked to a couple of buddies on the force the next week, and they both said he was showing off for the cute girl on the ridealong. I probably turned him pretty red despite her not being able to hear our exchange.
If you do an archive search you will find this topic occurs here quite a bit, you will also find that the discussion usually splits right down the middle and there's pretty much always a contingent that says,essentially " We're the good guys, we have nothing to hide".
I've also noticed that the video by Regent Univerity law professor Dr. James Duane " Don't talk to the police" is cited frequently, good stuff.
Bottom line, if Dr. Duane can't convince you that it is NEVER, under ANY circumstance in your best interest to waive your rights, this thread could go on a hundred more pages and it won't convince you either.
I've also noticed that the video by Regent Univerity law professor Dr. James Duane " Don't talk to the police" is cited frequently, good stuff.
Bottom line, if Dr. Duane can't convince you that it is NEVER, under ANY circumstance in your best interest to waive your rights, this thread could go on a hundred more pages and it won't convince you either.
I'm saying this with all due respect Deanimator but it sounds like you have a rather adverserial relationship with local law enforcement. I hate to hear about this and I have no way of knowing the circumstances but hopefully over time it can be resolved and the relationship becomes more amicable. If the White Supremacist are really bent on harming you then these are the guys who will be called to save your butt.
deaconkharma
Member
I was always the good guy
until recently
Was told that I needed to be disarmed for officer safety as he was told to do by his training officer. More and more folks in SC are seeing this form of what I (personally) deem as harassment of law abiding citizens who carry. Rather than fight a losing fight over not getting disarmed, I just have moved the firearm to my console where in SC we have no duty to inform. I must say I used to wear and inform because it seemed to put officers at ease and was even told so. Now that it seems that is less and less of the case, guess what, I do not inform. Are police any less safe because of this choice I have made? No, but they sure are less informed.
What folks do not appreciate (newsflash) is being treated like a common criminal when pulled over for a seatbelt. When you treat people as criminals and a CWP holder as an unsafe crazy who must be disarmed, we tend to take offense, whether you think we should or not, you have insulted us. Don't be offended when we think a little less of you too after being given the treatment of the untrustworthy. Don't be surprised when mistrust and a little disdain is given back.
(My personal favorite is being lectured on how one should feel after mistreatment and how one should consider the police officer's job, safety and any other number of things to excuse behavior. They are usually the same folks who excuse behavior on only one side of the equation.)
By the way, Mdeckard had one of the best posts above.
until recently
Was told that I needed to be disarmed for officer safety as he was told to do by his training officer. More and more folks in SC are seeing this form of what I (personally) deem as harassment of law abiding citizens who carry. Rather than fight a losing fight over not getting disarmed, I just have moved the firearm to my console where in SC we have no duty to inform. I must say I used to wear and inform because it seemed to put officers at ease and was even told so. Now that it seems that is less and less of the case, guess what, I do not inform. Are police any less safe because of this choice I have made? No, but they sure are less informed.
What folks do not appreciate (newsflash) is being treated like a common criminal when pulled over for a seatbelt. When you treat people as criminals and a CWP holder as an unsafe crazy who must be disarmed, we tend to take offense, whether you think we should or not, you have insulted us. Don't be offended when we think a little less of you too after being given the treatment of the untrustworthy. Don't be surprised when mistrust and a little disdain is given back.
(My personal favorite is being lectured on how one should feel after mistreatment and how one should consider the police officer's job, safety and any other number of things to excuse behavior. They are usually the same folks who excuse behavior on only one side of the equation.)
By the way, Mdeckard had one of the best posts above.
Deanimator
Member
Actually, my relationship with my LOCAL police is quite cordial. There are other police departments with which I utterly refuse to have ANY voluntary contact, or to even talk to without a lawyer present. Fortunately, I only have the potential for contact with them once a year.
Absolutely NOTHING could be farther from the truth.
Memorize:
Police have no legal duty to protect individuals.
Police have no legal liability when they fail to protect individuals.
Police have virtually no physical ability to protect individuals.
I have no reason to suspect that the Rocky River Police Department or any of its officers mean me any harm.
Likewise, I have no reason to believe that if my life is in immediate danger, that the Rocky River Police Department is going to "save my butt", or even that they have the physical ability to do so. Expecting them to do so is a childish fantasy.
When it comes down to it, the ONLY person who's going to "save your butt" is YOU. Expecting the police to do that isn't just foolish, it's unfair to the police.
Deanimator...thousands of times a day law enforcement officers respond to calls for help all across this country. They do not give a damn about the messed up legal jargon lawyers toss around. They respond...time after time after time. Most of the case law dealing with the legal responsibilities concerning police protection is null and void in a law enforcement officers mind when they get an emergency call...at least the ones I know. Legal duty...legal liability...thats lawyer bull**** designed to protect the various government agencies which employ the officers. And I'll grant it also protects the officer with limited criminal and civil liability.
And lack of physical ability...that is laughable to me. It is absolutely untrue. There are millions of "tough guys" sitting in prisons who learned that lesson the hard way. There are thousands in their graves. Just because a man puts on a uniform doesn't make him superman and far too many law enforcement officers wind up in a grave every year but they do not run and hide from trouble. Even when scared you suck it up and do what you swore to do.
Law enforcement officers do not like cowards in their midst. They sign on to do a job and want fellow officers they can count on when the SHTF. Unless you have actually ever been a professional law enforcement officer then you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. The officers themselves are very hard on each other. If a law enforcement officer displays cowardice in the line of duty they can be brought up a departmental charges and dismissed.
Law enforcement cannot be everywhere at once. When the **** goes down the odds of an officer being there are very low. But they will respond when notified and do their best to help. I'm not trying to wear this stuff on my sleeve but I drove up on and broke up an armed robbery in progress in the mid 90's. I caught one guy and the other ran away. They were going to beat up the manager and tie up the 5-6 member clean up crew and rob them. Some of these were high school girls. When asked if they were planning on raping the young girls they just shook their heads no. Nobody believed that! Your statement that police have virtually no physical ability to protect has just been squashed. I had the physical ability and the proof is in the fact I did it. I did not run and hide. I stepped out of the cruiser gun in hand and handled the ****. The manager and young high school girls got their "butts saved" that night and it was by the POLICE!
The above scenario happens all across the Untied States of America every day. The names change and the circumstances are different but law enforcement officers find put themselves in dangerous situations everyday. They do not want praise or to be thought of as special in any way. I became a police officer because I did not like some of the trash I saw moving into town. We hammered those drug gangs and sent them to prison or packing back to Gary, Indiana. Not bad for a group of guys with virtually no physical ability! The guys I worked with gave back to their community and tried to protect it. Unless you have ever done the job you have no idea what it is like to get punched in the face and wrestle a guy into handcuffs and drag him kicking and screaming to jail and then 20 minutes later have some dickhead yelling at you because you will not arrest the neighbors 10 year old kid for throwing a rock at his cat. Civilians have no idea...!
And lack of physical ability...that is laughable to me. It is absolutely untrue. There are millions of "tough guys" sitting in prisons who learned that lesson the hard way. There are thousands in their graves. Just because a man puts on a uniform doesn't make him superman and far too many law enforcement officers wind up in a grave every year but they do not run and hide from trouble. Even when scared you suck it up and do what you swore to do.
Law enforcement officers do not like cowards in their midst. They sign on to do a job and want fellow officers they can count on when the SHTF. Unless you have actually ever been a professional law enforcement officer then you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. The officers themselves are very hard on each other. If a law enforcement officer displays cowardice in the line of duty they can be brought up a departmental charges and dismissed.
Law enforcement cannot be everywhere at once. When the **** goes down the odds of an officer being there are very low. But they will respond when notified and do their best to help. I'm not trying to wear this stuff on my sleeve but I drove up on and broke up an armed robbery in progress in the mid 90's. I caught one guy and the other ran away. They were going to beat up the manager and tie up the 5-6 member clean up crew and rob them. Some of these were high school girls. When asked if they were planning on raping the young girls they just shook their heads no. Nobody believed that! Your statement that police have virtually no physical ability to protect has just been squashed. I had the physical ability and the proof is in the fact I did it. I did not run and hide. I stepped out of the cruiser gun in hand and handled the ****. The manager and young high school girls got their "butts saved" that night and it was by the POLICE!
The above scenario happens all across the Untied States of America every day. The names change and the circumstances are different but law enforcement officers find put themselves in dangerous situations everyday. They do not want praise or to be thought of as special in any way. I became a police officer because I did not like some of the trash I saw moving into town. We hammered those drug gangs and sent them to prison or packing back to Gary, Indiana. Not bad for a group of guys with virtually no physical ability! The guys I worked with gave back to their community and tried to protect it. Unless you have ever done the job you have no idea what it is like to get punched in the face and wrestle a guy into handcuffs and drag him kicking and screaming to jail and then 20 minutes later have some dickhead yelling at you because you will not arrest the neighbors 10 year old kid for throwing a rock at his cat. Civilians have no idea...!
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Deanimator
Member
You have not only an unrealistic appreciation for the legal obligations and physical abilities of the police, you have one which could get you killed.
Thousands of times a year, the police show up AFTER somebody has been maimed or murdered. Usually it's not their fault. But the victim is still maimed or murdered. Here's a newsflash for you: 911 is a communications system of variable efficacy, NOT a matter transporter. If your life is in danger RIGHT NOW, you'd better be able to defend YOURSELF, RIGHT NOW.
If somebody is trying to kill you RIGHT NOW, it is almost 100% that the police are NOT going to "protect" you. When they get to your location, they're going to draw a chalk outline around your body, or if you're "lucky", call an ambulance if you're unable to do so. They may or may not apprehend the person who injured or killed you.
Your childlike belief in the ability of the police to protect you from immediate harm is just that, childish. It has NO basis in fact. As far as their good intentions, they do NOTHING to stop somebody with a claw hammer, a butcher knife or a gun. They have to be RIGHT THERE, RIGHT NOW in order to do that. The odds of that happening approach ZERO. You don't have to like that. You don't even have to accept it. It'll happen to you if it does, regardless of your beliefs or wishes.
You rely on the police to "protect" you. I'll rely on myself. See which one of us has the greater chance for survival.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Worth repeating. One of the simplest and truest statements we can make in support of the right to self-defense. And utterly irrefutable.
Recognizing this is not in any way disrespecting our fine and brave police officers. To refuse to believe the truth of this statement is to place far more responsibility on our officers than any man or any group of men could ever shoulder.
Your life, your responsibility.
-Sam
Deanimator, it almost seems as if you are arguing with yourself. I never implied, and further, actually explained that police are almost never there when the **** goes down. I have alsolutely no problem with a person defending themself. You simply cannot appreciate the fact that police do respond and protect people thousands of times a day. About this you are as wrong as wrong can be. And as far as legal obligations and physical abilities I have proved myself and I am not dead. Again, have you ever been a professional law enforcement officer? What authority do you offer as proof as to your abilities? What do you possibly know about domestic law enforcement that I do not?
And please...a matter transporter...give me a break! Thats childlike!
Now you are stating "immediate harm" and that if someone is trying to kill you "RIGHT NOW". Not I or any single person on this thread has said anything about waiting for the police to show up before you try to protect yourself. Its as if you are getting yourself all worked up and hearing voices...who said you should wait on the police to arrive and not protect yourself? If threatened you have every right in the world to do what is necessary. I am not your enemy and support you on this. I would also hope you would ask the authorities for assistance if you could reach a phone. I just get the feeling you wish to dismiss the importance of law enforcement. I have a wife and two children and if my family was in danger I would not wait on anybody to protect me. But I am not a one man gang and neither are you. We could be injured or killed. I would hope the boys in blue would arrive in time to assist me or you, if we was injured or killed, to at least protect our loved ones from harm. It just seems to me from reading your post you are telling people to not trust the police and not to count on them for help. I think that is very bad advice.
And please...a matter transporter...give me a break! Thats childlike!
Now you are stating "immediate harm" and that if someone is trying to kill you "RIGHT NOW". Not I or any single person on this thread has said anything about waiting for the police to show up before you try to protect yourself. Its as if you are getting yourself all worked up and hearing voices...who said you should wait on the police to arrive and not protect yourself? If threatened you have every right in the world to do what is necessary. I am not your enemy and support you on this. I would also hope you would ask the authorities for assistance if you could reach a phone. I just get the feeling you wish to dismiss the importance of law enforcement. I have a wife and two children and if my family was in danger I would not wait on anybody to protect me. But I am not a one man gang and neither are you. We could be injured or killed. I would hope the boys in blue would arrive in time to assist me or you, if we was injured or killed, to at least protect our loved ones from harm. It just seems to me from reading your post you are telling people to not trust the police and not to count on them for help. I think that is very bad advice.
- Status