Frustrated w/ powder handling/measuring

[D.B. Cooper]

I have pretty much completely had it with trying to throw and weigh powder measures. I am....enraged.

I can't get anything remotely resembling consistency from anything. I'm in the process of switching from Unique to Clays. (I was told Clays would handle and measure easier than Unique.) I'm trying to throw 3.8 grns from a Lee Auto-Drum Powder measure. I am weighing it on a Redding #2 beam scale and on a Lyman 1500 Micro-touch digital scale. I can't get anything to match anything and I can't get anything to repeat anything. I have just spent almost 2 hours at the bench throwing, weighing, adjusting, throwing, weighing...

I zero the beam. Calibrate the electronic scale. Check both with an RCBS check weight (5 grns). Throw a charge, weight it on the beam scale. Too heavy. Adjust. Throw. Weigh. Too light. Adjust. Throw. Weigh. Too heavy. I am making the most minute adjustments on the auto drum's powder adjustment that I can humanly make, but no matter what I do...it's just not going to be spot on. No matter what. It will always be one-half to one tick mark high or low.

I can take the same powder measure, weigh it on the electronic scale and it will be 0.1 to 0.5 grains off, usually less, than what the beam scale is telling me. There just doesn't seem to be a way to get it right.

What is it going to take? How much money do I have to spend? What do I have to buy? So that I can set a powder measure to throw x grains of powder, and that powder will weigh the exact same x grains on scale A and the exact same x grains on scale b, and that result be repeatable over and over and over again, without constant finite, minute adjustment?

Some of you may remember that I had this problem earlier this year and posted a similar thread(s). I'm pretty much beyond the end of my rope with this. I am now at the point of ditching all the equipment and buying store bought ammo again, which means I will shoot a lot less. (I'll have to stop competing.) OR...I'm just going to load whatever powder comes out of the drum and never ever weigh it. Because I just can't deal with this as it is.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

What is it going to take? How much money do I have to spend? What do I have to buy? So that I can set a powder measure to throw x grains of powder, and that powder will weigh the exact same x grains on scale A and the exact same x grains on scale b, and that result be repeatable over and over and over again, without constant finite, minute adjustment?

You never will. That what they make dribblers for. Set your scales a few tenths light and use a dribbler to finish the charge to make weight.
I've never seen anything, even an electronic measure/dispenser that will weigh and dispense exactly to the same weight every time.

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Being within a .1 of a grain is highly acceptable and what we all try to get.

With Unique you are chasing your tail. It has to be one of the worst metering powders out there. If you want to stay in that same burn rate, try Universal, Power Pistol, BE-86 and others. They meter really well but you will still be + or - .1 of a grain at best.
That is all that most of the measures and scales are designed to do. Even the balance beam scales. Some electronic scales have a higher resolution, but my guns and myself will never be able to tell the difference.

 

[drband]

Deep breaths! Don’t give up!
You can do this!
Questions: is the auto drum new?
What press is it mounted on?
The AutoDrum adjusting key has flats on the stem that roughly correspond to 1/10th gr increments. Is that what you are using to gauge your tweaks?

I have not used Clays but if it is finer than Unique, you should be able to get consistent drops. I get .1gr accuracy with unique and usually dead-on weights.

 

[ericuda]

Get the Lee auto disk. I have way better luck with it than the drum.

 

[George P]

Get a RCBS or similar better quality powder drop

 

[WrongHanded]

Pick a scale, and stop using the other one.

Next, realize that the auto drum works by volume, not by weight. So it won't consistently give you perfect measurements.

Find a charge that is below max, and then being +-0.1 or 0.2grs isn't going to ruin your day. Make sure you tap the auto drum a bit in between measuring charges and setting the drum. This will make sure the drum is filling up consistently.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

drband, you will have to help him with that, I could never get .1 gr accuracy with any measure I have and Unique. I have four different measures and they all give me fits with Unique so I quit using it.

DB COOPER, I wouldn't switch to Clays, It is strickly a fast shotgun powder and not meant for hand gun loads. Some have used it but it has very limited uses in handgun loads. It builds pressure really fast so you would have to be very careful with it. Stay away from maximum loads with it, it is supposed to get spiky fast.

 

[jmorris]

It doesn’t take a lot to get a lot of repeatability.



And even some decent products can fool you.




That said, if you are throwing clays and unique if might not make much difference anyway. A half grain variation with those powders is ridiculous with pretty much any measure but you likely couldn’t tell the difference between a tenth.

What distance are you shooting and what is your group size?

If you are not talking about inches at a few hundred yards and instead inches at 20 yards, powder charge is not the limiting factor.

Even though Clays isn’t the best metering powder out there, I have won lots of matches using it. What are you shooting and in what competition?

 

[entropy]

I use Lee powder dippers, and weigh each charge. I don't have to worry about metering, and my charges are as consistent as I want to make them.

 

[Eddietruett]

I've been loading off and on for 30+ years. I've never been able to find a measure that will meter Unique very well. I switched to Universal. You can basically use the same data as Unique. It burns the same and meters much more consistent especially in my Dillon 650. I normally keep my Dillon set up with Universal at 5.0gr and shoot a lot of .38 HyTek Coated bullets. I use same charge for 130gr and 158gr. It is a +P load for 158gr and about max for standard .38 with the 130gr bullet. It shoots cleaner and as accurate if not more accurate than Unique at least for me. I tried several different powders as a substitute for Unique. I shoot a lot of steel plates at 75 yards (max my property will allow me) and I wanted a powder that would push bullets in the 1000fps range. I tried Power Pistol and HS-6 as well when I was doing my initial looking and both did great with metering but HS-6 does better when loaded near max range and Power Pistol did great with the 130gr but not as good with the 158gr. For me, Universal does just what the name says. My favorite bullets to use are the 130gr coated from Summers or SNS and the 158gr flat point from SNS. The FMJ Plinker from Speer shoots really accurate but its around 130.00 per k verses 70/80per k for the coated. One thing I have not done with Universal is load it down to rabbit fart range for 148gr HBWC. Bullseye does so good, It doesn't need replacing. One other thing I really like about Universal, it is normally $3-4 a pound cheaper than Unique but of course that can vary depending on where you find it.

 

[jmorris]

I use Lee powder dippers, and weigh each charge. I don't have to worry about metering, and my charges are as consistent as I want to make them.

And you don’t have that pesky scale that doesn’t read right getting in the way.

A “dipper” or any volume measure for that matter doesn’t “weigh” anything but it works well quite often.

 

[entropy]

I don't quote myself often, but for clarity's sake:

I use Lee powder dippers, and weigh each charge. I don't have to worry about metering, and my charges are as consistent as I want to make them.

I use a 5-0-5.

 

[jmorris]

Sorry, I should have known better. Volume as well as weigh, solid advice.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Throw a charge, weight it on the beam scale. Too heavy. Adjust. Throw. Weigh. Too light. Adjust. Throw. Weigh. Too heavy.

How many throws are you running through the powder measure, after each adjustment, before you weigh the charge again?

 

[9mmepiphany]

DB COOPER, I wouldn't switch to Clays, It is strickly a fast shotgun powder and not meant for hand gun loads. Some have used it but it has very limited uses in handgun loads.

If you meant "strictly," you'd be wrong in in your pronouncement of "not meant" for handgun loads

It is one of the most common handgun powders used to reload revolvers for Action Pistol competition. It is often used for .38Spl and .45ACP because it is not sensitive to changes in temperature and is listed, for loading handguns, in most reloading manuals

 

[cheygriz]

Develop a slow, CONSISTENT technique with the handle. Don't "thunk" the handle at either the top or bottom of the stroke. It worked for me.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Develop a slow, CONSISTENT technique with the handle. Don't "thunk" the handle at either the top or bottom of the stroke. It worked for me.

The OP is using an Autodrum powder measure. It doesn't utilize a "handle," it is case activated.

 

[Jonesy814]

I use the Lee auto disc and my drops vary at most a half a tenth hi or low with both clays & Unique

 

[luzyfuerza]

First point:

Once upon a time, I decided to spend (blow??) some time trying to reduce variations in charge weights of Unique as thrown by the Dillon powder measure on my 650.

I was seeing +/- 0.2 grain variations and didn't like it. Every other powder I used through this equipment kept variations to +/- 0.1 grains. Like the OP, I got VERY frustrated. Nothing I did reduced these variations.

What I finally realized was that Unique isn't sensitive to what I thought were big variations in charge weight. It works great even when charge weights vary. Hence the name.


Second point:

In the world of custody transfer meters (used when expensive stuff like natural gas, electricity, steam, coal, etc. changes hands) we used to say that if you have only one meter, then its right. If you have two meters, you end up with an argument. If you have three meters, you have a lawsuit.

I suggest that the OP chooses a scale, checks its performance regularly using test weights, and puts his other scale away. Saves a lot of frustration. And that scale will always be right!

 

[tightgroup tiger]

If you meant "strictly," you'd be wrong in in your pronouncement of "not meant" for handgun loads

It is one of the most common handgun powders used to reload revolvers for Action Pistol competition. It is often used for .38Spl and .45ACP because it is not sensitive to changes in temperature and is listed, for loading handguns, in most reloading manuals

I stand corrected, thanks for pointing that out.

 

[Walkalong]

+/- .02 with Unique is no big deal. It shoots well anyway. Clays will meter better, and yes, it is fast, and unforgiving at the top, but good stuff and very useful.

Always throw a bunch of charges before expecting any kind of consistency, and even then, some powders just don't do that well.

I have no experience with that measure so I cannot speak to it.

 

[clone]

Chargemaster is what i use. Dispensed and measured exactly every time for me.

 

[jmorris]

Here is another thought. Weigh/trickle charges for some number of rounds and throw charges for the same number of rounds. Take both to the range and shoot them separately. Is there any noticeable difference in group size? If not, you don’t have anything to worry about.

 

[GBExpat]

D.B.Cooper, have you dusted your Auto-Drum with a bit of graphite to eliminate static electricity issues?

 

[Blue68f100]

When fill the powder reservoir tap the side several time to settle. Then run a min of 20 charges and dump back into the reservoir. Now take one and read what you got. For Unique which measures like Large Corn Flakes, the ave will be ±0.2gr. With a ball powder (WSF and others) you can get <±0.1 gr. You can also take 10 drops and do a avg. I do this on small charges to see how close I'm am since it will actually give you another decimal place.