Frustrated w/ powder handling/measuring

[George P]

drband, you will have to help him with that, I could never get .1 gr accuracy with any measure I have and Unique. I have four different measures and they all give me fits with Unique so I quit using it.

DB COOPER, I wouldn't switch to Clays, It is strickly a fast shotgun powder and not meant for hand gun loads. Some have used it but it has very limited uses in handgun loads. It builds pressure really fast so you would have to be very careful with it. Stay away from maximum loads with it, it is supposed to get spiky fast.

That is absolutely FALSE about Clays; they print recipes on the label for 38, 9mm and 45acp

 

[George P]

Develop a slow, CONSISTENT technique with the handle. Don't "thunk" the handle at either the top or bottom of the stroke. It worked for me.

I am the opposite with my RCBS; I use a consistent fast throw "thunking" it at the top. My drops are consistent, the vibration from the "thunking" keeps the powder settling all through a loading session. Has worked perfectly for over 35 years.

 

[jmorris]

Yep, vibrations and powder measures are not a problem.

Heck, Lyman even went to the trouble of making a “knocker” part of their measure.

 

[cheygriz]

Perhaps either works as long as you're CONSISTENT!

 

[Skgreen]

RE: I was told Clays would handle and measure easier than Unique

Probably so, but my personal opinion is neither one have what I would consider to be ~outstanding~ metering characteristics.

Powder choices and availability are pretty good right now,,,

 

[YBOT]

I have no experience with Unique or Clays but thought I’d add some test info that I just got with Lee’s Deluxe Perfect Powder Measure I just received. I modified the powder measure with a Lee Quick Change Drum and first ran a full measure of Winchester 231 through the system while changing the key settings until I made a few 4.0 gr drops. I then ran 10 consecutive drops measured with my Frankfort Arsenal electronic scale and only one of those ten came out 0.1 gr high. Looks promising.

Also, saw this statement in Richard Lee’s Modern Reloading, Second edition. Quote from page 72. “Larry advised that they found it desirable to coat the inside of the chamber with Midway Mica to significantly reduce charge variation…… “.
I have not tried that as yet but I think my old Uniflow powder measure small drum is about to get the treatment.

 

[cheygriz]

Strange.

I've never had a problem of any kind with measures. I currently have a Redding, RCBS, and Belding and Mull.

 

[drband]

Also, saw this statement in Richard Lee’s Modern Reloading, Second edition. Quote from page 72. “Larry advised that they found it desirable to coat the inside of the chamber with Midway Mica to significantly reduce charge variation…… “.

I have used the powdered mica with the Lee AutoDrum and found that it did help with a brand new unit. However, I think that running 20-30 drops through a new unit would adequately coat the internals with enough graphite from the powder to insure smooth function. I did not use the mica on other new units and found no negative effects. (I have 4 AutoDrum units)

 

[LiveLife]

I've never been able to find a measure that will meter Unique very well.

I can meter Unique with C-H 502 micrometer powder measure using a baffle with .2 gr variance (.24 gr actual) after 20 drops to settle the powder - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/c-h-502-micrometer-powder-measure-10-drops.834894/

It metered Red Dot with .2 gr variance (.22 gr actual) and newer "Blended" Promo with .1 gr variance (.12 gr actual, same as W231/HP-38).

BTW, I found with these fluffy flake powders that slight variance in powder charge won't really affect accuracy much.

What is it going to take? How much money do I have to spend? What do I have to buy? So that I can set a powder measure to throw x grains of powder, and that powder will weigh the exact same x grains on scale A and the exact same x grains on scale b, and that result be repeatable over and over and over again, without constant finite, minute adjustment?

I use Pro Auto Disk and C-H 502 micrometer powder measure along with Ohaus 10-10, RCBS 5-0-5 and several digital scales.

All the scales will verify check weights down to 10 mg (.15 gr). $20 Gemini-20 down to 5 mg .077 gr).

With small granule powders like Bullseye, Clean Shot/Lovex D032-03, Titegroup, W231/HP-38, Vectan Ba 9.5, BE-86, WSF, AutoComp, CFE Pistol etc., both powder measures will meter with around .1 gr or less variance - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...powder-measure-10-drops.834894/#post-10802441

With even smaller granule powder Sport Pistol, C-H 502 will meter with .08 gr variance and Pro Auto Disk will meter with less than .05 gr variance - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/new-alliant-sport-pistol.816514/page-5#post-10598431

.30 disk hole of Pro Auto Disk dropped 10 charges of Sport Pistol from 2.90 gr to 2.94 gr weighed on Gemini-20 digital scale with most of charges being 2.92 gr to 2.94 gr. This is VERY consistent powder charge variance!

 

[George P]

I have never had drop issues with Unique, it's counterpart Universal, Clays, or any other. Ball powders like 296, 231, etc will always drop better than flakes and stick powders, but I prefer to go by what works (accuracy-wise) in my gun

 

[FROGO207]

Anything I cannot get to meter well in a measure will get the scoop and trickle treatment. Usually there is not enough difference in the ammo results on target if it is within +/-.2 grains of actual weight with a handgun round for me. I just made a custom sized scoop for using 700X (reloaders corn flakes) in 45 ACP and have won some informal matches with that ammo just by scooping, carding the top off, and dumping the propellant in the case. The takeaway thing is to practice what ever method you use until it is booringly consistent and your weight will be the best it can get. I also agree to use ONE scale. To see if it is repeatable take the check weight on and off several times and see that the scale weighs and then zeros the same every time. If so and it is near the check weight then it is as accurate as I would need. Do not overthink it down to the individual granule of powder.

 

[Walkalong]

“Larry advised that they found it desirable to coat the inside of the chamber with Midway Mica to significantly reduce charge variation…… “.
I have not tried that as yet but I think my old Uniflow powder measure small drum is about to get the treatment.

If you like messy, this is a great way to do it. It will be interesting to see if it helps with that measure. I tried graphite instead years ago, but it didn't seem to help, was messy, and I just didn't like it.

 

[snakeye]

DB Cooper you said "I can't get anything to match anything and I can't get anything to repeat anything." That tells me that none of the measuring tools match each other. You should be able to manually drop say 4.0 grains in a powder pan and weigh it both on the beam scale and electronic scale, if both tools are accurate they should weigh the same and be repeatable on both of those scales, leave the powder measurement out of this. If it still doesn't match you have to determine which device is accurate before you can determine if a powder drop/measure is correctly throwing loads.

 

[LiveLife]

I agree and reason why I recommend the use of check weights.

Using check weights in the powder charge range you are using (say 5.0 gr), accurate scale should read 5.0 gr repeatedly. If not, I would set that scale aside and only use scale that can verify check weights repeatedly.

 

[GW Staar]

If you like messy, this is a great way to do it. It will be interesting to see if it helps with that measure. I tried graphite instead years ago, but it didn't seem to help, was messy, and I just didn't like it.

I use Paste Wax inside my Uniflow bodies, hoppers, and even inside the cylinder cavities. Apply, let dry, then buff, like shining shoes! Works for me. Definitely not messy, and it's slicker than......yet it sticks to measure surfaces better than mica or graphite, I know, I tried them. I live in dry dry dry New Mexico, dryer sheets are rubbed on ONLY the outside for static control. I like to bump measures.....but it's hard to do that on progressives. So I just try my best to stroke the same each time.

The O.P. has had this issue since February....thought he came to an understanding and truce with his powder measure then.....guess not. Maybe there's a variable humidity cycle in Alaska? That's a foreign land to me, so I can't help anymore than the above.

Real sorry you are frustrated....bet the cold winters are dry like the rest of us can only conjecture about.

Believe what Walkalong said, Unique is REAL forgiving! It takes a lot of powder to change a load measurably--more than almost any other powder. .2 of a grain variance is Nothing.

Also make dang sure you aren't worrying about .09 grains......made that mistake once on a Gem Pro! .09 is less than .1! Did not realize that display measured in hundreths! Brother, did I feel dumb.

 

[IlikeSA]

I used to feel the same way but then I realized it is a pistol/revolver, and 1/10 grain or two one way or the other won't make a difference at the ranges I am shooting. If I am shooting longer range (50+ yards) Ill throw and trickle.

 

[YBOT]

If you like messy, this is a great way to do it. It will be interesting to see if it helps with that measure. I tried graphite instead years ago, but it didn't seem to help, was messy, and I just didn't like it.

....on second thought maybe I’ll just skip that.

 

[Zendude]

Metering consistency is the main reason I went back to using Bullseye when I need a fast powder.

 

[walnut1704]

Your suffering from conflicting cumulative errors. Assuming one is not using laboratory-grade equipment there is a significant margin of error with each piece your using. Let's say each device has a margin of error of .1 gr. By that I mean the powder measure actually throws +-.1 gr on each throw if you were to measure it on the World's Most Accurate Scale. Your less-than-scientific-grade scale also has a variation of +-.1 gr. Meaning any charge you weigh and re-weigh will show variation of +-.1 gr at times.

Given those assumptions you should expect to see .1 gr variations all the time and .2gr frequently. Maybe it's the measure, maybe it's the scale. If it's the scale then the variation in the true weight isn't "real". Throw in a third piece of equipment with a .1 gr variation that will never be in synch with the other two and you'll have numbers flying all over the place.

I do it this way: Fill hopper, throw 10 charges to settle the powder in the hopper. Return powder to hopper. Throw 10 charges into cases as a batch using a methodical stroke. I use a loading block to hold them.

Then dump each charge and weigh, being sure to tap the case with your finger to be sure it's empty. I don't dump each one from the pan on the scale, I just keep adding the next charge. So if I'm throwing perfectly and looking for 4.0 gr I'm going up 4.0, 8.0, 12.0, 16.0....etc. Then you have a total to average and it's easy enough to calculate the difference between each and you can even input them to a spreadsheet and calculate standard deviation if you are so inclined. I'm not.

I write these in a small notebook with pertinent information required to repeat the charge. Average them. Calculate the weight of each charge. Mostly I see a +-.1 gr variation with fewer +-.2 gr variations and an occasional +-.3 gr. I like to write them down so I can keep track of what to expect from each powder. After a while you'll have quite a bit of data which could be analyzed in aggregate to give you a true idea of the variation over the long term.

With some powders (curse you 700-X !) it can be a bit worse. But as long as you are not loading to maximum the small variation don't matter.

With automatically actuated measures be sure you have enough of a "throw". I have mis-adjusted Lee Auto Disks once or twice where the actuator was not being pushed up quite far enough and the disk did not quite slide all the way over the drop tube. So be sure your Auto Drum is getting a full stroke and not stopping a little bit short of full-stroke. If that makes sense.

Pick a scale. Any scale. Put the other one away for now. Keep your cellphone and any other electronic devices, well away from electronic scales.

 

[Walkalong]

I use Paste Wax inside my Uniflow bodies, hoppers, and even inside the cylinder cavities. Apply, let dry, then buff, like shining shoes! Works for me. Definitely not messy, and it's slicker than......yet it sticks to measure surfaces better than mica or graphite, I know, I tried them

Interesting. I use a dry lube when it occasionally gets sticky, work a couple of drops in good by manipulating the measure, let dry overnight with the cap off.

 

[SamT1]

For flake powders you need to load the hopper at least a day in advance. Load it and throw a desiccant pack on top. Reload before it’s below 1/3 capacity.

Kinda seems like something is wrong with the drum if it’s not letting you make very small adjustments. Then again I don’t use drums for pistols, I used the disk. Throw in the correct disk and accept whatever it actually throws. Usually .1 grain easy with flake and better with other powders.

 

[PWC]

I'm old school: single stage Pacific press, Lyman 55 with plastic tube and a baffle. Pacific balance beam and Lyman Pocket Pro ele scale.

First, I moved the scales and powder measure off my bench to a shelf not connected to the bench. Vibration of any kind will settle powder inconsistintly and affect scale settle time for weighing.

If you don't have a baffle, query the I'net; templates to make bafles from alum cans or roof flashing using scissors are there. Recommend using smaller holes first to try. You can adjust hole size larger until you are happy.

I use my scale more to weigh bullets and cases than powder. I always go back to my balance. It's faster and accurate if I do my part.

My loading is done in a closet shared with the water heater, so there is not a lot of air circulation; AC or a fan will affect scale as much as level will. Also, warmup time. Before I use the scale I let it warm up for an hour in the climate/location it will be used; also new batteries as it is not AC.

Most of all, just pick one, beam or scale and stay with it. I always go back to my balance; lo tech, just keep the knife edges clean. In comparison to 20 yr old records only real variable is change in powder mfg.

 

[gsbuickman]

You never will. That what they make dribblers for. Set your scales a few tenths light and use a dribbler to finish the charge to make weight.
I've never seen anything, even an electronic measure/dispenser that will weigh and dispense exactly to the same weight every time.

https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/1...uBekHKhQ0ZcJs2uSZrHzF3pY82F3JShcaAsvfEALw_wcB

Being within a .1 of a grain is highly acceptable and what we all try to get.

With Unique you are chasing your tail. It has to be one of the worst metering powders out there. If you want to stay in that same burn rate, try Universal, Power Pistol, BE-86 and others. They meter really well but you will still be + or - .1 of a grain at best.
That is all that most of the measures and scales are designed to do. Even the balance beam scales. Some electronic scales have a higher resolution, but my guns and myself will never be able to tell the difference.

Yep, I agree . Until I buy a turrent press the only handgun ammo I reload is 44 spl / 44 Mag. Everything else that I reload is bottleneck rifle brass. I'm using an old RCBS powder measure that's probably older than I am but it works well & once I get it dialed in and set it throws really consistent drops depending on what I'm metering .


If I'm metering something like Green Dot, Unique , 4831 or 3031 it's going to give the measure fits and I know there's no way I'll get the drops spot on, so I setup my powder trickler next to my digital powder scale and I start throwing charges and fine-tuning it until I get it within .03-.05 grains light & trickle the charges up until they're spot-on. Now if I'm metering a fine or ball powder maybe something like H110 I can get this powder measure throwing drops that are consistently spot-on to .01 hi/low and even with a nice smooth single stage press you'd be surprised at just how much ammo you can crank out when you get into a rhythm and roll with it ...

 

[Walkalong]

For flake powders you need to load the hopper at least a day in advance. Load it and throw a desiccant pack on top. Reload before it’s below 1/3 capacity.

When you refill to top it off, do you wait another day?

 

[PWC]

Forgot to say, I throw 10 charges, after set up, and average the powder drop to check repeatability, then every 5th or 10th depending on the loading block used. (5th or 10th hole in line)