Frustrated with Palmetto State Armory

[BigDinVT]

I've used PSA's products before. In fact I have a .308 that uses a Palmetto upper and complete lower. Completely happy with the items I used for this build.

A little over a year ago my son purchased a complete PSA 5.56, AR 15, 16" Barrel, M4 format rifle at my recommendation. He's been mostly happy with it and 'accessorizing' ever since. The honeymoon ended last year when he wanted to replace the A2 handguard with a free-float.

I had a handguard that I had removed from one of my rifles but required the removal of the forward handguard cap from my son's rifle in order to fit. It took two days, a bunch of stuck nut solvent and a lot more force than I was comfortable with to get the gas block off so I could remove the cap. I recall that, when removing the gas block, it appeared that there was some sort of epoxy or "varnish" used after the gas block was installed.

For Christmas this year my son asked for and I got him a new muzzle break and a longer free float hand guard. The new (very nice Seekins Precision - light as a feather) requires a proprietary barrel nut which necessitated the removal of the A2 style barrel nut.

Deja vu all over again. I worked on the PSA installed nut for hours and didn't manage to do anything except mess the nut up (yes, I used a proper barrel nut wrench). IIRC the torque recommended for a barrel nut is +/- 35 lbs. I used all of my prodigious weight and effort (MUCH more than 35 lbs) to loosen the nut and it wouldn't budge. There is NO WAY the only thing holding this barrel nut in place is torque but it doesn't appear to be staked.

I e-mailed PSA about a week ago voicing my concern and frustration and haven't heard a peep from them. At this point it looks like I'm going to have to get a new stripped upper and barrel, salvaging what I can off of this PSA POS, to build a replacement upper. That's a pretty significant expense foisted on to a customer simply because PSA can't follow industry best practices (specifically anti-seize grease and proper torque).

Anybody have a suggestion, insight or similar experience with PSA rifles? At this point they're off my reseller list. I won't do business with them again unless they make this right (i.e. get this frigging barrel nut off). I posted this for some suggestions but also to warn any new AR builders/buyers that the folks at PSA are not your friends. I'm pretty disgusted with them.

 

[LoonWulf]

With the holidays id expect email turn aroumd to be slowed perhaps significantly so. ive never bought from psa but everything ive heard suggest they are customer oriented, ill be following this to see where it goes. Torque wise on the nut i thought it was anything over 40 and under 80? This is just what i REMEMBER reading a while back, my standard prwctice is to hit 40 then use the next available notch unless its way out, then i shim it.

 

[ColoradoMinuteMan]

I once bought a new PSA assembled upper that I wanted to Cerekote. I went to disassemble it soon after receiving it and I found the barrel nut to be difficult to remove. I was unable to produce enough torque using the barrel wrench. I had to use a heat gun to heat the barrel nut and really muscle the nut off with the wrench. I had one person putting pressure on the barrel wrench, holding it onto the teeth, and another person pulling on the wrench. It scratched the heck out of the delta ring but I was using a free float rail on the built anyway.

Be careful when using a heat gun on this because of the grease, it will smoke quite a bit. You will also want to be sure and used a vice block that locks into the locking lugs or you will mar up your upper receiver. Also make sure you wear leather work gloves to protect yourself against hot metal. I too was very skeptical they used the proper torque specs and or used enough grease on the threads. This wasn't even an upper that had been fired or would have cooked off the grease through use. I've removed dozens of barrel nuts that I torqued myself and only had similar issues once and I'm sure it was because I didn't adequately grease the threads.

 

[Tirod]

There are a lot of AR15's sold to the public with some kind of thread locking or bedding compound under the nut. PSA is just one of them and they are far from being alone. I don't know why they do this but it's actually far more common than I first thought. There are posts on arfcom about it monthly. Because of the initial amount of torque necessary to break things free having the upper set up and held correctly is extremely important. Torque values over 250 ft pounds have been reported when owners finally got them apart.

Uppers assembled by others cannot be trusted to be done per milspec, and this has been going on for a long time. I assemble my own uppers so I know that they won't be thread locked if and when I want to them altered. If I had purchased a Spikes, BCM, PSA, or the two dozen top makers selling assembled uppers then all bets are off.

It's not just PSA, and it's actually pretty common. Good luck.

 

[Maj Dad]

It's not just PSA, and it's actually pretty common. Good luck.

Good to know - I have a PSA rifle I put together with complete upper & lower, and will use the upper I stashed a few years ago to play with. I wasn't really planning on taking the 18" ss bbl off, but I definitely won't try when I live ~40 miles from PSA & can get components easily now that the panic has subsided...

 

[loose noose]

Ordered a SS 16" upper from them a little over a year ago, and had a very nice experience with them, fast delivery, and a quality product, very accurate also.

 

[Jackal]

Most people that have troubles working on AR's are using cheap or improper tools. No, that $10 NCSTAR wrench is not a good tool. No, that $10 Ebay vice block is not a good tool. No, that tapered nail set is not a good pin punch. No, that 16oz framing hammer is not a good gunsmith hammer. No, you shouldnt kneel on the rifle to hold it while torquing the barrel nut. Etc, etc, etc. Good tools make building AR's so much easier.

I've never had any trouble with any AR, ever. A big vice, a good quality wrench, punches, hammer and either a good vice block or reaction rod is all thats needed.

 

[Ibmikey]

Agree with Jackal on the use of proper tools on any firearms project, i have experienced shoddy tools that were advertised as the best...tools that quickly fail and hopefully do not take your project with them. I use a Magpul Bev Block when removing or installing barrels or other activities that will put torque on the receiver, it locks into the bolt lug space on the barrel and delivers the torque to the barrel rather than the receiver. Clam shells are not my friend.
Back to the OP's original concerns, i have invested a lot of cash in Palmetto products and have never been dissatisfied with any of them. Customer service is an entirely different matter ( or perhaps just the one i delt with) as on a recent purchase i encountered a problem that i was more or less told " tough luck" and my i pad is no good for ordering parts ($12,000 in parts were purchased with it) as their computer would not recognize it.
Not as a result of poor quality parts but because of my 45 min wait on the phone and poor represenative i now buy from other sources.

 

[BigDinVT]

@Jackal good info. Give me your address and I'll ship you the upper so you can work your magic . @Ibmikey thanks for the tip on MagPul Bev Block. I'll look into it.

Thanks all for the info. I'll update if/when PSA replies.

 

[Jackal]

@Jackal good info. Give me your address and I'll ship you the upper so you can work your magic . @Ibmikey thanks for the tip on MagPul Bev Block. I'll look into it.

Thanks all for the info. I'll update if/when PSA replies.

Hop on a plane, you're invited over for a beer and a build. I worked on one factory PTAC upper that had its barrel nut torqued to an estimated 150-200ft lbs. I weigh 230lbs and was nearly able to completely hang from the barrel nut at the end of a 12in wrench before it finally broke loose. Sometimes "factories" hire help that have less experience than many home AR builders.

 

[Tirod]

I'm not so much about tools. The Colt factory appeared in a photo essay online some time back, most of the tools we see recommended were NOT on the benches.

I've built my AR's with vice grips and worn drill bits for punches. I finally purchased a cheap armorer's wrench and it does help a lot. However - they are NOT in the official tool set. If anything, the armorer's tool kit is largely to disassemble machine guns at the company level, which means not doing very much at all. Most of that goes to depot so that trained armorer's - not 20 something kids - do the real work.

Those of us who assemble a few AR15's at home can spend the money as we see fit, but the reality is that if you know how to use tools, common mechanic's hand tools get the job done nicely. Understanding how and where you are applying force is much more important than having an "approved" tool. Those who have scratched a lower installing the bolt hold open roll pin can tell you it made no difference they were using a roll pin punch. Improperly applied it tears things up. Taped vice grip jaws can do it more safely.

Read the tips and tricks to assembling the AR on arfcoms assembly sticky. It was written years ago when NO specialty tools were on the market and knowledge was more important. Now we have lots of tools on the market - and posts about how lower trigger ears are broken off, lowers scratched, and uppers ruined from torquing the extension pin out of the slot. Using the right tools helps, but doing it wrong will result in the same damage. The tool isn't the problem - at least the metal one applying force.

I've replaced motors and transmissions in Mustangs, F150, and Foresters using a 7 drawer tool box at the most. No lower cabinet. Not saying I don't collect my share of tools but it doesn't take a 6 foot step tread cabinet full of tools to work on stuff. Knowing your tools and what to do is far more important than collecting rare and rarely used ones. Case in point, to remove the lower ball joint on a Subaru a ball joint puller is handy - $150 and days out shipping, Or, some bits of pipe and joints, plus a modified lug nut and you make your own. Less than $18.

Taped up vice grips and old drill bits for punches. Cheap and handy.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Just split the nut with a Dremel and chisel. You're scrapping it anyway

 

[fireman 9731]

So what is the purpose of the thread locker on the barrel nut? Is it just a cheap way out of using a torque wrench?

 

[ColoradoMinuteMan]

So what is the purpose of the thread locker on the barrel nut? Is it just a cheap way out of using a torque wrench?

There is no justified purpose. It is contrary to recommended configuration. In fact it directly contradicts the recommended practice of putting anti-seize such as heavy grease on the threads.

 

[ColoradoMinuteMan]

I'm not so much about tools. The Colt factory appeared in a photo essay online some time back, most of the tools we see recommended were NOT on the benches.

I've built my AR's with vice grips and worn drill bits for punches. I finally purchased a cheap armorer's wrench and it does help a lot. However - they are NOT in the official tool set. If anything, the armorer's tool kit is largely to disassemble machine guns at the company level, which means not doing very much at all. Most of that goes to depot so that trained armorer's - not 20 something kids - do the real work.

Those of us who assemble a few AR15's at home can spend the money as we see fit, but the reality is that if you know how to use tools, common mechanic's hand tools get the job done nicely. Understanding how and where you are applying force is much more important than having an "approved" tool. Those who have scratched a lower installing the bolt hold open roll pin can tell you it made no difference they were using a roll pin punch. Improperly applied it tears things up. Taped vice grip jaws can do it more safely.

Read the tips and tricks to assembling the AR on arfcoms assembly sticky. It was written years ago when NO specialty tools were on the market and knowledge was more important. Now we have lots of tools on the market - and posts about how lower trigger ears are broken off, lowers scratched, and uppers ruined from torquing the extension pin out of the slot. Using the right tools helps, but doing it wrong will result in the same damage. The tool isn't the problem - at least the metal one applying force.

I've replaced motors and transmissions in Mustangs, F150, and Foresters using a 7 drawer tool box at the most. No lower cabinet. Not saying I don't collect my share of tools but it doesn't take a 6 foot step tread cabinet full of tools to work on stuff. Knowing your tools and what to do is far more important than collecting rare and rarely used ones. Case in point, to remove the lower ball joint on a Subaru a ball joint puller is handy - $150 and days out shipping, Or, some bits of pipe and joints, plus a modified lug nut and you make your own. Less than $18.

Taped up vice grips and old drill bits for punches. Cheap and handy.

To each their own, but I prefer to have the right tool for the job. i agree that using even the proper tool improperly can result in damage, but often time having the right tool have help you avoid damage. I actually do like the trick of turning vise grips into a mini punch press for difficult areas. However, a roll pin starter punch also works great and doesn't cost a fortune. If you are going to maintain firearms or anything else mechanical, it'is best done by purchasing the right tolls in my opinion. I can't tell you how many screws on firearms I've seen marred and ruined by standard screw drivers. High quality truely flat tipped screw driver sets from Brownelles can save yourself a lot of heartache. A good armorers tool, a set of roll pin punches and a reaction rod type vice block are small prices to pay to maintain your firearm in good condition.

 

[LoonWulf]

So what is the purpose of the thread locker on the barrel nut? Is it just a cheap way out of using a torque wrench?

Actually i think it might be like lawyer goop in trigger assemblies, once the uppers assembled they really dont want some one coming along and taking it apart or lossening the nut/gasblock etc.
Ive built a number of uppers and lowers now, i DO have a multi wrench, which works pretty well as long as you dont try torque the crap out of it. Ive switched to using handguards that use wrench flats on the nuts if possible, tho just cause ive snaped off the cheap little stubs on the cheap little armorers wrench ive got...easy to drill and replace with slightly larger and longer rods, but still prefer wrench flats.

Ive also made vice blocks that clamp the entire length of the top rail and the full bottom of the receiver, tho a key that engaged the barrel extension would probably be better.

 

[rskent]

If the nut (any nut) doesn’t want to come loose.

Just add a little heat. Don’t mess it up. Don’t gets pissed.

Just add a little heat.


As far as the gas block, it was most likely green Loctite.

Just add a little heat.

 

[BigDinVT]

Je'esh! So many replies I feel like I've got to say something.

May take another stab at it this weekend. I actually thought about using heat but didn't take the leap.

@fireman 9731 I can't think of any good reason for using a permanent joint adhesive on a barrel nut except to keep third parties from disassembling the assembler's products. That's bad business and falls in line with LoonWulf's comment (tip o' hat to ColoradoMinuteman also). IMO PSA most likely doesn't want to be liable for a buyer's imprudence. Unfortunately it makes their products about as useful as a Lego toy put together with Superglue.

@MachIVshooter I thought about that. While cutting the nut off with a Dremel would potentially solve the removing-the-nut problem it could create another one. I've been through that situation before; hydraulic fitting on a wood splitter. My brother (a master mechanic believe it or not) did the cutting and we had challenges ever since. Damaging the threads on the upper receiver puts me back at square one - replace the upper receiver. And while not completely an unsavory solution, I've got to go through my CFO for that (she's on a fund saving kick at the moment).

On tools my crib has grown since my first build. In fact the same seasonal gifting that put this problem in my lap brought me a set of roll pin and a set of brass punches. The brass punches were a hard-to-find item and I was ecstatic to get them. I guess it's a yin/yang thing.

@rskent had to laugh - "don't gets pissed". Been there...done that. A few stories there. I've learned (however the tools do still seem to leap out of my hand toward a - mostly - safe direction - I hope - with great energy from time to time).

 

[MachIVshooter]

I thought about that. While cutting the nut off with a Dremel would potentially solve the removing-the-nut problem it could create another one. I've been through that situation before; hydraulic fitting on a wood splitter. My brother (a master mechanic believe it or not) did the cutting and we had challenges ever since. Damaging the threads on the upper receiver puts me back at square one - replace the upper receiver. And while not completely an unsavory solution, I've got to go through my CFO for that (she's on a fund saving kick at the moment).

An AR upper isn't a hydraulic fitting; a partial cut less than 1/16" wide into the threads won't affect anything. But your upper, your call. Just a suggestion. I've cut and split more nuts than I could possibly count on all sorts of applications, including AR uppers.

 

[pwillie]

I bought an upper and a lower , and not satisfied with either.....sent them back for replacement...

 

[BSA1]

A little over a year ago my son purchased a complete PSA 5.56, AR 15, 16" Barrel, M4 format rifle at my recommendation.

For Christmas this year my son asked for and I got him a new muzzle break and a longer free float hand guard. The new (very nice Seekins Precision - light as a feather) requires a proprietary barrel nut which necessitated the removal of the A2 style barrel nut.

I e-mailed PSA about a week ago voicing my concern and frustration and haven't heard a peep from them. At this point it looks like I'm going to have to get a new stripped upper and barrel, salvaging what I can off of this PSA POS, to build a replacement upper.

What am I missing here? You want to modify a rifle that you brought a over year ago and now are complaining about not being able to remove the barrel nut. You do not describe to what weather conditions the gun has been shot and stored in. You do not describe the tools you used other than a barrel nut wrench or your skills as a gunsmith.

Then you are complaining about not getting a response to a email that you sent on the busiest time of the year for retail businesses.

Even if the receiver is toast due to your attempts to remove the barrel nut why is the barrel in need of replacement?

I am a amature parts changer and can perform many modifications to my guns but I am in no way a gunsmith. A stuck barrel nut is one of those things that paying a true gunsmith with the right tools is much easier and less expensive than buying a new receiver in long run.

Sorry but I don't see why you are bashing PSA for something that you can not do yourself.

 

[BigDinVT]

You might want to re-read the original post. Not replacing the barrel; replacing the barrel nut (unless I can't get this upper apart).

My frustration with PSA comes from 1) (apparently) installing the barrel nut with either excessive (waaaaaay outside recommended) torque; using adhesive (which is not standard); or failing to use anti-seize grease on the barrel nut and 2) not being responsive to customers' e-mails.

Many responses gave some good ideas on how to move forward. Replacing the upper and barrel is only one course of action *I* considered (not one of the recommendations from others). Generally the tools and the quality available in the market place are of a wide range but I did use ones I felt were appropriate for the task (worked great on an AR-10 upper build). The receiver was properly clamped in a bench vice and a wrench designed for removing AR-15 style barrel nuts was used. In fact this thread wouldn't have existed if PSA had used appropriate torque; didn't use adhesive if they did and/or applied anti-seize grease when installing the barrel nut.

You can disagree if you want to but I feel I have a valid complaint. If you search other forums you'll find others have had similar experiences with PSA.

...and the original question was "Anybody have a suggestion, insight or similar experience with PSA rifles?"

I'll take your suggestion to "pay a true gunsmith" under advisement.

Thank you for your input.

 

[Hookeye]

One needs a good bench and vise, anything that flexes makes it tougher.
Tapco makes a good wrench for AR work. Have seen poor copies.

Kroil is always good to have around, as is a propane torch. Have gotten MZ breechplugs out with that combo.
Also a can of circuit board chiller.

 

[Hookeye]

Most folks just change AR furniture, don't swap barrels. If they do, usually take it to somebody that has the tools.
So if your PSA was a functional rig from the start, I'd really not consider them at fault.
Maybe they assemble in a manner you don't care for..........but if so many complaints are on the web, doesn't that fall under "buyer beware"?

 

[Hookeye]

Bolt stop roll pin.......... kiss the end of the roll pin on a sander to bevel. Oil the hole.
Brass punch and small ball pein hammer. Done a couple dozen. No scratches.
I do however tape the side of the receiver in a couple layers of masking tape.
BTW, the roll of tape makes a handy little bench block too.
Not saying that such things will work for everybody, I might have a little more finesse than most (worked under microscopes for a living- plus was also an artist).
Got no strength........but that little stuff, yeah.......was always easy.
Until my eyes went to crap