Palmetto State Armory Upper: A Seasoned Fella's Critique

[MistWolf]

What's up with the hostility on this forum lately? boricua9mm is right to expect a properly assembled upper, regardless of price point. One of the frustrations in dealing with PSA is trying to figure out exactly what they're offering.

boricua9mm, I suggest going back and carefully reading the description of your upper, then calling PSA for a clarification of specs. Your bolt might actually be made of the right steel.

Bolts made using proper processes & QA don't need HPT. In fact, HPT shortens the useful life of the bolt

 

[CharlieDeltaJuliet]

Listen to Quentin. The bolt carrier is no BS. It is one thing to advertise you make one of the cheapest, quality, as close to mil-spec rifles as you can. Check every part of any rifle you buy. Odds are they made a mistake but, I would ask them to rectify it. Mistakes happen, PSA is a good company, they should make up for it.

 

[redneck2]

What's up with the hostility on this forum lately? boricua9mm is right to expect a properly assembled upper, regardless of price point.

Any time you start talking AR's expect the flame war to start...

To me, an M16 BCG means a full auto profile

I can buy that. IIRC, M16's are FA.

$500 price point.

Unless you've got somethin' to share with us...???

Kinda like when I went to the Chevy dealer. Told me they'd sell me a well made, dependable car for $20,000, so I bought it.

When I got there, I was surprised as hell that it was a compact little thing, not a Corvette. Those bastages at the dealership wanted over three times as much for the 'Vette. Something about higher performance and being made better costs more. You'd think somebody would have told me that.

Thieves

All nonsense aside, threads like this give everybody a little heads up

 

[ngnrd]

PSA has a LOT of different uppers, in a LOT of various configurations. But after searching PSA's website, I can't find the exact configuration that the OP is describing. And I, for one would like to know exactly which one was ordered, and what that product's description actually said.

boricua9mm - can you please post the SKU of the item you purchased? You can find it in your order history on the PSA website (after logging in), or in the confirmation email they sent when you ordered.

For the record, here's a link to the upper I ordered: SKU #36779. It's description is very close to what you are describing, but doesn't mention a "Premium" M16 bolt carrier.

And, SKU #38222 indicates that it is a 'Premium' upper with a C-158 bolt and M16 carrier, but has a different profile barrel than you listed.

Also, SKU #34679 also indicates that it is a 'Premium' upper, but doesn't even come with a BCG. In fact, I don't see anything on PSA's website saying anything about "Premuim BCG's". So, I'm confused about your statement in post #18 that "PSA's "Premium" BCG is a fortune cookie filled with mystery".

So, if you will please post the SKU if the item you ordered, it will clear up some of my confusion.

Thanks.

 

[moxie]

Hope your new rifle works out.

Two comments.

1. If you received a semi BCG when they advertised M16 an immediate return would have been in order. Spending $150+ on the Spike's sort of negates the whole idea of an economy upper. And now you've got an untested semi BCG in your parts bag. How well will it work, if at all, if you need a quick replacement?

2. A 1000 round break in "without cleaning" is, in my opinion, questionable. That nice lube you started out with slowly becomes nothing more than lapping paste, accelerating wear rather than preventing it. Sure it ought to go the 1000 and more, but what are you proving? Do you envision a scenario for your truck gun where you might have to fire 1000 rounds without cleaning and lubing?

 

[justice06rr]

In fact, I don't see anything on PSA's website saying anything about "Premuim BCG's". So, I'm confused about your statement in post #18 that "PSA's "Premium" BCG is a fortune cookie filled with mystery".

PSA does sell a Premium BCG.

Its selling for $119 (separately) right now if its in stock, which as of Friday it was.

here is the link and the specs:
http://palmettostatearmory.com/inde...tto-state-armory-5-56-bolt-carrier-group.html

-----------------
Milspec Carpenter No. 158® steel bolt

Shot Peened Bolt

High pressure tested

Mag particle inspected

Chrome Lined Carrier (AUTO)

Chrome Lined Gas Key

Gas Key Hardened to USGI Specifications

Gas Key Grade 8 Hardened Fasteners

Gas Key Staked Per Mil-Spec

Tool Steel Extractor

Extractor Spring

Extractor O-ring Insert

SKU 8779
---------------

For what I recall that is as close to a Colt or BCM BCG as you can get at a lower price point, and it does come with the PSA logo on the carrier.

Now if you are buying a complete upper with a BCG included, that might be a different story. You have to check specifically if you are getting the Premium BCG or one of the other lower end offerings.

 

[ngnrd]

You're right. PSA does have a 'Premium BCG' that they sell as a separate item. But, I don't see any uppers (at least none that also include the MI-SS12G2 handguard, since that's what I used as a search term) that list a 'Premium BCG' as part of the package.

There are several uppers listed with the MI-SS12G2 handguard that also include M16 or full-auto carriers and/or C158 bolts, and various testing criteria, which may lead someone to believe that they are getting the 'Premium BCG', even though it is not specifically advertised as such.

So... my request stands. Please post the SKU # to clear up my confusion.

 

[justice06rr]

You are correct on that. I do not know which packages they have currently that include the premium bcg. It could've been a package in the past.

Although I will attest that you can special order a particular upper package of your own choosing to include a Premium BCG. I had a 300BLK complete upper I bought last year from them that came with the Premium BCG and MI Gen2SS 12". My friend ordered it for me so I don't have the actual SKU or receipt, and the rifle is sold so I don't have a pick showing the BCG. But I clearly remember it had the Palmetto logo on the carrier which is normally only on premium bcg's.

 

[WinThePennant]

Well, this thread made me take my PSA apart.

Well, of course, I was reintroduced to just how damn tight PSA's delta rings are. I think it took me 30 minutes to get my Magpul handguards back on.

Thanks, a lot!

 

[WinThePennant]

My advice on PSA is to simply buy a run-of-the-mill upper, and buy your own BCG and charging handle. These days, Spikes nickel boron is the way to go for BCGs (IMHO). Of course, I've always loved BCM charging handles (Mod 4) and will never change.

For most folks (me included), free float rails are a waste of money. You can make a pretty sweet AR these days for little coin if you just avoid the free float and go with Magpul handguards. Damn, those Magpul handguards are practical as Hell, hold everything I want them to hold, and cost practically nothing when compared to FF rails that do nothing more for me (other than look cool).

 

[redneck2]

You can make a pretty sweet AR these days for little coin if you just avoid the free float and go with Magpul handguards. Damn, those Magpul handguards are practical as Hell, hold everything I want them to hold, and cost practically nothing when compared to FF rails that do nothing more for me (other than look cool).

Does this hand guard clamp to the barrel rather than receiver? Reason I ask is that I'm getting a varminter upper. Don't want anything that would touch the barrel that could affect accuracy.

 

[WinThePennant]

Does this hand guard clamp to the barrel rather than receiver? Reason I ask is that I'm getting a varminter upper. Don't want anything that would touch the barrel that could affect accuracy.

Magpul handguards fit around the delta ring and the front triangular handguard retaining cap. They don't really touch the barrel, unless you count the heat guard. It sorta friction grips the barrel.

 

[HankC]

Free float tube has its place if you want to use a bipod

 

[boricua9mm]

What's up with the hostility on this forum lately? boricua9mm is right to expect a properly assembled upper, regardless of price point. One of the frustrations in dealing with PSA is trying to figure out exactly what they're offering.

There is an interesting dynamic around these parts. Sometimes a hive mentality takes over and no one likes being told that the Emperor has no clothes. So far we've had people tell me that I'm being too picky expecting the upper to be assembled to correct standards and methods as suggested by the manufacturer of the components. We've got people who think I'm simply asking for too much (a properly built upper!?). We've got folks who want to see my receipts/SKUs/login/etc. We've got folks who are ready to tell me what specs I do and do not need on my rifles. Can't help but wonder where the logic is...

boricua9mm, I suggest going back and carefully reading the description of your upper, then calling PSA for a clarification of specs. Your bolt might actually be made of the right steel.

What I know about the BCG is that the carrier is a semi profile, the bolt is only marked MPI, and it's not finished in the typical parkerizing. I can call PSA, hope to talk to one of the techs/builders, hope that they understand my concerns and then do the dance on getting it swapped out. On the other hand, when you have an upper of questionable build integrity and you know you were shipped, at the very least, an incorrect carrier, it doesn't inspire a lot of confidence that the resolution would be one that I can trust. After all, who would have imagined that anyone would start selling bolts of various steels, bolts that are MPI'd but not HPT'd prior, bolts that are coated in mystery finishes, etc.? I think this aspect has really muddied up the waters for people looking to buy/build a quality AR. On the other side of the coin, we have companies that we know will ship you a proper BCG that built to the real Military specifications, not one made with an "Oh crap! What steel/testing/finish can we use today" type of mentality. BCM, Colt, Daniel Defense, LMT, Spikes, etc.

Bolts made using proper processes & QA don't need HPT. In fact, HPT shortens the useful life of the bolt

That seems to be the opinion of Ron Silvers and the folks at KAC, but I've seen a couple of snapped bolts over the years and I'll take mine the Colt way. I've seen numbers tossed out from both Ron an KAC employees that suggest that a non HPT'd bolt might go a few thousand rounds more, but meaningful sample sizes for that kind of data seems to be sorely lacking. If such data does exist, its not very visible to the public eye. As a result, I'll go with the known quantity/quality each and every time.

 

[back40]

i'd still be interested to hear what PSA has to say about your concerns and their solution if they deem one warranted.

 

[ngnrd]

... folks who want to see my receipts/SKUs/login/etc. ...

Don't be so dramatic. Nobody asked to see your receipts, or your login. I asked for the SKU that you ordered so that there could be an honest discussion about what you ordered vs what you received, and told you where you could find it.

I agree that whatever you ordered should be properly assembled. But, your complaint about not getting what you ordered is also of concern to me. However, if you're not willing to share the part number that you ordered, how can we have an honest discussion about it?

Maybe PSA screwed up, maybe they didn't. But so far, the only thing I can confirm is that you aren't happy with what you actually got. And, that bit of information doesn't help without knowing WHY you aren't happy, and whether or not it's actually PSA's fault.

Please, post the SKU.

 

[boricua9mm]

Don't be so dramatic. Nobody asked to see your receipts, or your login. I asked for the SKU that you ordered so that there could be an honest discussion about what you ordered vs what you received, and told you where you could find it.

I agree that whatever you ordered should be properly assembled. But, your complaint about not getting what you ordered is also of concern to me. However, if you're not willing to share the part number that you ordered, how can we have an honest discussion about it?

Maybe PSA screwed up, maybe they didn't. But so far, the only thing I can confirm is that you aren't happy with what you actually got. And, that bit of information doesn't help without knowing WHY you aren't happy, and whether or not it's actually PSA's fault.

Please, post the SKU.

Don't be coy. This post is a thinly veiled attempt to question my integrity.

If so, just come out and say it. We'll then pace through it accordingly.

For all I know you are a PSA employee who is coming in to sandbag the situation. In fact I would say that this has a high likelihood of being the truth. In most forums, you are required to come clean on whether or not you are employed in the industry...you know...so that we can be sure of YOUR intentions.

Oh...what's this...ANOTHER GUY WHO GOT SHIPPED THE WRONG BCG? Impossible! We need to review his order history at PSA...

 

[Hacker15E]

Bottom line: are you going to call PSA this week and ask them to replace the semi BCG for a full auto one?

 

[ngnrd]

Don't be coy. This post is a thinly veiled attempt to question my integrity.

If so, just come out and say it. We'll then pace through it accordingly.

For all I know you are a PSA employee who is coming in to sandbag the situation. In fact I would say that this has a high likelihood of being the truth. In most forums, you are required to come clean on whether or not you are employed in the industry...you know...so that we can be sure of YOUR intentions.

Oh...what's this...ANOTHER GUY WHO GOT SHIPPED THE WRONG BCG? Impossible! We need to review his order history at PSA...

Seriously? That's your response?

Well, I will tell you - with as much civility as I can muster - that I am most assuredly not a PSA employee. I am a civil engineer, and as my forum profile states, I live in Alaska. Yes, I have made several purchases from PSA. But, other than being a customer, I have absolutely no affiliation with them. I have also made purchases at Midway, Brownell's, Natchez, Amazon, and ebay in the past year. Will you now accuse me of working at those organizations, as well?

In regard to your integrity, I have nothing to say about it one way or another. Readers of this thread can make their own judgement on that matter if they so choose. However, let me recap your actions so far in this thread. You started this by presenting a complaint about a vendor not shipping what you ordered, but did not post the part number of the item that you actually bought. Then, when asked for that information, you accuse me of wanting to see your receipts and your login - which was patently false. Then you got extremely defensive and accuse me of being a company shill because I just want to know what exactly it was that you ordered. Is that about right?

It seems that there are two separate issues with the item you got. First, there is a concern about PSA's quality control in regard to the installation of some of the screws, and of the handguard. I don't think anybody is dismissing or challenging this issue. In fact, I have already agreed that whatever upper was shipped, it should be properly assembled. The second issue is the matter of whether or not you actually received what you ordered. It is this issue that I am trying to clear up.

So, I'll ask again - without judgement or malice - what is the SKU of the upper that you ordered, as shown on your order documents? Once we know exactly what was ordered, we can have an honest discussion about whether or not there were any mistakes made on PSA's part regarding what you actually received.

Finally, what is the point of the link you posted in the above quote? That guy hasn't even received his order yet. He is simply asking about what parts his rifle kit should come with when it does finally arrive (something that should be understood before actually placing the order). So, why would you imply that the wrong BCG was included in his order?

 

[Fishbed77]

Don't be coy. This post is a thinly veiled attempt to question my integrity.

Easy, killer. Take off the tinfoil hat, step back a second, and breathe deeply.

I don't see anything nefarious in ngnrd's posts. I think he is honestly trying to help you. PSA sells a lot of configurations, and the only way to verify if you got what you were paying for is too look at what you originally paid for.

As with all things in life, trust, but verify.

 

[redneck2]

Don't be coy. This post is a thinly veiled attempt to question my integrity.

Well, maybe yeah. Pretty much. I haven't seen that much ducking and weaving since dodge ball in high school gym class

So, just a real simple response would have shortened the loop. I know on a lot of forums they just do the pig pile where everybody jumps on. Kinda the old west lynch mob mentality.

After 63 years on this earth, I've pretty much figured out that anyone who goes to great lengths to avoid a direct answer is really just trying to avoid the truth. If you're gonna take shots at Palmetto State, better be prepared for incoming fire

 

[Sam1911]

Oooookay... This is getting heated and there's NO reason for that. I swear these electrons build more walls than bridges between us! I once told a guy that he was under direct orders to read every reply as if the sender had a HUGE friendly smile on his face when he typed it. And that he was to put an equally huge friendly smile on his face when he typed out his own replies. Good advice here, too, I think.

Now, there is a request on the floor for an SKU number. No reason not to post that -- let's have it so we can get one more piece of the puzzle.

And everyone settle back to being pals helping each other sort out their rifle issues.

 

[Al Thompson]

And everyone settle back to being pals helping each other sort out their rifle issues.

Ditto.

 

[MistWolf]

...What I know about the BCG is that the carrier is a semi profile, the bolt is only marked MPI, and it's not finished in the typical parkerizing...

I've seen a couple of snapped bolts over the years and I'll take mine the Colt way...

PSA customer service has been very forthright in the past. I dealt with them about feed ramps on my upper and they took care of things quickly and professionally. They gave me the feeling they wanted me to be satisfied with the resolution. There were no excuses, no tap dancing, no delays.

Ron Silvers and KAC know a thing or two about making ARs. Their advice about HPT (and other things) is very solid. What's much more important to the life of an AR bolt is shot peening to relieve stress.

PSA doesn't make bolts, they buy them from outside sources. They buy bolts made from Carpenter steel and they buy bolts made from another alloy (which I don't recall what at the moment). Carpenter steel has to be bought in large lots from the supplier so that right there limits the number of companies who are making bolt forgings. Chances are, the same company supplying bolt forgings to Colt is the same company supplying the forgings for the Carpenter bolts PSA sells.

HPT/MPI isn't necessarily "the Colt way". It's what the government wants. Left to their own devices, Colt would drop HPT after they proved their processes have eliminated any flaws that made HPT necessary, to reduce cost. Because rejected parts drive down profits, you can bet Colt has already proved their processes.

I'm willing to bet that the snapped bolts you saw had HPT performed on them

 

[1KPerDay]

Thanks for the report, and you got that rifle looking right sexy.

I've had no issues with my PSA lowers or 'mock dissipator' upper. But I got them before the Obamascare.