Full Size 9mms

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belus

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Houston, TX
Browning Hi Power
CZ-75 (pre-B)
HK P7

Of steel 9mm's these three probably draw among the most attention and praise. They're commonly compared on forums and there's a strong correlation between ownership of one and ownership of another. A while back, while researching the P7, I came across an unanswered question about how it compares physically to the BHP. I figured I should answer it now that I'm able. Both the CZ and P7 are completely stock. The BHP has a bobbed hammer spur, wide trigger, and C&S safety.

If you have small hands, the CZ 75 is the largest of the three, has the longest trigger reach, and the widest grip. I can just barely make a comfortable double action shot with this gun. The P7's grip and length of pull is also surprisingly long - on the same order as a CZ single action pull. However, the P7's grip is the thinnest of the lot. The most comfortable grip for me is still the HP, both in terms of width and trigger reach.

Unloaded, the P7 and CZ balance very similarly with the center of mass is just behind the trigger guard. The HP has a little more weight forward and seems to balance exactly over the trigger pin.

Barrels range from 120mm for the CZ, to 118mm for the BHP, to a noticeably shorter 105mm on the P7. All exceed 4 inches however. (sorry to mix units, but I think it gives more meaning.) The CZ and P7's slide are approximately the same thickness while the BHP is definitely more slender.

As a final appraisal for someone wanting a full size 9mm to CCW, I'd first recommend the BHP providing they're comfortable with cocked and locked. The extremely thin slide is preferable for IWB carry and the grip width can be reduced to that of the P7 with after market stocks. I wouldn't refuse the extra half inch of velocity it can provide the 9mm either.

I've provided a couple every day items for scale. The Zippo is the same width as the CZ's widest point (in the palm swell). The Film case is slightly thinner than the BHP with stock grips, and the same width as the P7's grip.

Eventually I hope to pick up a Kahr T9 or S&W 3913. (I'll accept donations if you're really curious though ;))
And before any questions come up about a Sig, I really don't like light rails and the stock Sig trigger is, IMO, the ugliest thing out there.

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Belus:

What a superb post! I really think you've done a good job of comparing/contrasting three of the finest European steel 9mms out there. Love the photos.

Norinco982lover:

Rough guess would be $475 for the CZ75, the Great Gnu alone knows for the BHP (I just paid $650 happily) and $550-600 for the P7. Note that the P7 is available "this cheap" only because a number of German police agencies have switched pistols. If you think you might want a P7, I'd get one NOW.
 
Thanks for the compliments, I'm glad people have found it useful.

Since posting that I've shot a SIG 229, which has, to a large extent, melted away my bias. The double action trigger pull was the best I've felt on a semi-auto. Were I to pick up a SIG, it'd likely be something with the DAK trigger.
 
I think you forgot a 4th - a 1911 platform but...

I had a BHP in the late '70s, it had the high front sight
for the sit on top of the slide but dovetailed adj. rear.
Nice service pistol but I was young and strting a family,
as well as the occaisional stovepipe with fed. JHPs.

I now have a CZ 75B - Blued from the factory Han. '08 725
rds and no problems.

I handled a P7 once, buddy of mine is ex-SOF Army Mountain
unit in EUrope. He got the P7 in Germany when they were less than
$150 ? Nice hinge to cock it for the German police but the gas
tube has to be maintained not quite an in the muddy field handgun.

ALso, SIg 210 - the version for the Swiss Army with the mag release where it belongs instead of on the heel of the butt

THe Luger was too hand fitted and the P-38 was a limited service life,
THe Beretta M9/92 FS is in the family due to numbers.

Randall
 
Another more recent version to consider may be the CZ SP-01. It's supposed to have a trigger reach more friendly to short fingers. Now if I could just find a dealer that has one in stock to confirm that info!
 
I've owned, or still own, those three pistols, in addition to several other "full-size" 9mm's. However, I would be hesitant to call the HK P7 a full-size pistol, considering it is smaller than a Glock 19 (generally considered compact).

Here are my impressions.

BHP- classic design, very compact and slim, excellent capacity for size, mechanically simple, trigger has nebulous and long reset (compared to 1911 or Glock). Easy to carry, probably the easiest truly full-size pistol to CCW due to compactness. My "thumbs forward" grip had a tendency to mistakenly activate the slide stop.

P7 PSP- very compact, dense, slim, nice for carry. Trigger is "unique", without the traditional take-up and brake (in my view anyway). Manual of arms is simple, but different, though I don't think that it's "too different" with regard to training. It is mechanically complex (take the grips off to see), and requires cleaning-- a lot more cleaning than the others in this post. Still, one of my favorite CCW guns.

Colt Combat Commander 9mm- 1911, speaks for itself. From the factory, sights are terrible and the beavertail area has many sharp edges. IMO, needs a set of sights and the beavertail either replaced or just smoothed out. JHP feed reliability is somewhat variable gun to gun, though some of them work perfectly. Heavier than the P7, the SV (and probably the BHP). This is technically a compact model (vs. a Govt 1911), but it's close in size to the BHP and P7. Can be significantly lighter weight with a regular Commander (aluminum) frame. While it's expensive and requires some work, it does have the most panache.

SV/STI 2011. This is the dominant platform for USPSA for good reason-- it combines all the benefits of the classic 1911 with double-stack capacity, excellent reliability, and a host of refinements. Although many are made in "racegun" form (and mine is to some extent), the slide is identical in size to any 1911 slide, and the grip is about the same girth as a regular 1911. With no magwell, the polymer grip isn't any longer than a 1911, and would carry about the same as a regular 1911 just with more capacity (the weight would be about a wash with more rounds but the polymer grip).

CZ 75 series- I've bought four: some variability gun to gun and some reliability issues. Some common issues I'd class under "design flaw". A great deal at $300 but no reason to buy at $500 vs. the others in that price class. No flames, this is just my own conclusion from my experience.

The moose on the table is the polymer guns - the Glock - and the aluminum guns. While some of these steel guns are soft shooting, I think a Glock 19 shoots softer than a number of these.

SV double-stack "2011" in 9x19. The SV doesn't exactly have a steel frame, but its receiver is steel.
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Colt Combat Commander, 9mm
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HK P7 PSP
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Pair of Ted Yost BHPs
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Hey, i recognize that sticker! Aren't they based in arizona? I remember reading something about PP and was intrigued.
 
The P7 is the most accurate, safest( no cocked & locked), fastest into action, and lowest recoil of your choices.
 
I really don't think that the P7 should be considered a full size auto. I think it's firmly in the compact category.

My choice would be the BHP if I could get one of those fancy Ted Yost or Novak numbers. Man those are nice.
 
I really don't think that the P7 should be considered a full size auto. I think it's firmly in the compact category.

I agree. The only thing full sized about the P7 is the grip. My Full sized 9mm choice would be the Beretta 92.
 
I also have or have had all three. For carry, I would always go for the P7/M8. It has a nice single action trigger, and is probably the easiest to conceal 9mm on the market for its size. It is a nice handgun, and I have enjoyed shooting mine; the all steel construction is not too heavy either. I also agree with Zak. The CZ's were great bargins for the 3-400, but not more. The BHP is a wonderful design. I sold mine primarily because of the trigger. I will get another.
 
ExtremeSquared said:
Hey, I recognize that sticker! Aren't they based in arizona? I remember reading something about PP and was intrigued.
Tuscon has a chapter, but I'm not sure how active they are. It is/was organized by Charles Heller.

In Phoenix we had a little trouble when our founder got insulted over the handling of some debt and tried to torpedo the chapter. Some members had loaned over $400 and were trying to recover their money by proposing dues, the founder had assumed the money was a gift/donation.
Anyways, we've re-organized under a new name and are shooting together twice a month in central Phoenix.

I'm sure we'll be down to Tucson October 18th. It'd be nice to have a local guide show us where to shoot. :)

edit: Oops, it was started in Boston by Douglas Krick.

Also, here's a good introduction to the group and the pressures it faces.
 
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Cossack: I've heard about these HK P7 German Police trade-ins but I've had trouble locating any for sale. Any ideas on where I could find them? Thanks!
 
I have all three of these pistols and they are among my favorites. As others have said the P7 is not a full size, but a compact that shoots like a full size 9MM. A lot has to do with its fixed barrel and weight. Good review. They are still great choices in a 9MM.
 
I really like the look of those P7's but if I was gonna buy an all metal frame 9mm I'd have to go with a CZ P01; which I think is more in the compact market along with the P7.
 
Tuscon has a chapter, but I'm not sure how active they are. It is/was organized by Charles Heller.

In Phoenix we had a little trouble when our founder got insulted over the handling of some debt and tried to torpedo the chapter. Some members had loaned over $400 and were trying to recover their money by proposing dues, the founder had assumed the money was a gift/donation.
Anyways, we've re-organized under a new name and are shooting together twice a month in central Phoenix.

I'm sure we'll be down to Tucson October 18th. It'd be nice to have a local guide show us where to shoot.

edit: Oops, it was started in Boston by Douglas Krick.

Also, here's a good introduction to the group and the pressures it faces.

I'm not sure i really qualify, but i do like it when people break stereotypes. The only place i have shot in tucson is the marksman, but there may be better places, sort of new to handguns here. The people at the marksman were helpful though.

Also, that link is filtered for me due to "adult content". Cause obviously anything involving lesbians is umm... yeah. :rolleyes:
 
My girlfriend and I don't really qualify. But it's a relaxing group (fairly libertarian, in general) and a great way to introduce new shooters who are concerned about the gun-culture's reputation for machismo.
 
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