USMCsilver
Member
I just got this off of AR-15.com; this is wierd...
FWD: Notice To NJ AR-15 Owners
- Thread starter USMCsilver
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Could you provide a link please? AR15.com is a big website.
I found nothing on the NJ State Police, Department of Criminal Justice, or Legislative websites regarding this.
New Jersey has had restrictions on hi-caps for 12 or so years, longer than the federal restrictions.
I found nothing on the NJ State Police, Department of Criminal Justice, or Legislative websites regarding this.
New Jersey has had restrictions on hi-caps for 12 or so years, longer than the federal restrictions.
USMCsilver
Member
I dunno about that one. I just checked Evan Nappen's website and the last he has was that this was put on hold and tabled. There was rumors that they were gonna try to make blocked hi caps illegal 2 years ago but it didn't happen. Sounds kind of fishy to me. If a magazine is blocked then effectively it is no longer a hi cap magazine. Until I see this corroborated on either Nappen's site or the NJSP website I'm gonna have to call BS on this one.
Edit: If it IS true i'm going to be VERY pissed cause I just spent like an hour blocking 2 of my mags yesterday so I could actually be legal.
Double Edit:
That right there I KNOW is BS because possession of a hi cap is a crime of the 4th degree which is punishable by a MAXIMUM of 18 months in prison, and almost always a first offense of a 4th degree brings NO jail time.
Edit: If it IS true i'm going to be VERY pissed cause I just spent like an hour blocking 2 of my mags yesterday so I could actually be legal.
Double Edit:
That right there I KNOW is BS because possession of a hi cap is a crime of the 4th degree which is punishable by a MAXIMUM of 18 months in prison, and almost always a first offense of a 4th degree brings NO jail time.
Why would you call BS? I know the guy who posted the information on AR15.com. He received a call from his FFL dealer 5 minutes after the NJ State Police left his store. Do you think he's LYING about this???? I think there is something serious wrong with you Bud! 
feedthehogs
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As much as NJ disgusts me, I find it hard to believe that this ban on magazines would be a cops to ffl dealer information only.
There should be some indication of it to the public as they would be creating crimminals with out letting the people know they could be a crimminal in possession of a blocked magazine.
I don't doubt that an ffl called your friend but maybe the ffl or the cops who visited them were wrong, misinformed or didn't understand what was going on.
It wouldn't be the first time an ffl was wrong about regulations or laws, or the cops for that matter.
There should be some indication of it to the public as they would be creating crimminals with out letting the people know they could be a crimminal in possession of a blocked magazine.
I don't doubt that an ffl called your friend but maybe the ffl or the cops who visited them were wrong, misinformed or didn't understand what was going on.
It wouldn't be the first time an ffl was wrong about regulations or laws, or the cops for that matter.
I called BS for the reasons that I posted earlier. He might not be lying but he could easily be WRONG. Ya know sorta like George Bush.
First of all something like this could not just "happen" without any warning. Evan Nappen is all over NJ gun law and the last time they TRIED to ban blocked Hi Caps he had a big warning on his website.....no such thing right now.
Second of all if it WERE to happen there would have been some notice to ALL the police depts.....not just a Trooper going into gun shops around the area......there has been no such notice. Just to confirm that I just asked a friend I went through the academy with on Camden PD.....one of the biggest in the state and they recieved no such notice.
Thirdly it was stated if you are in possession of a hi cap magazine you'd be "lookin at 10 years in jail" which is plain wrong. As I stated before possession of a Large Capacity Ammunition Feeding Device, as they are called in NJ statues, is a crime of the 4th degree which is punishable by up to a maximum of 18 months in jail. NO WAY could anyone get 10 years for it, and as I also said before first offenses are hardly EVER given jailtime.
Now I'm not saying your friend is lying.....but I'm fairly confident that he is mistaken.
I don't know the situation in NJ, but police can be, and often are, wrong about the law. A dealer here (MD) had a problem when appraising an estate collection because the decedent had a number of magazines with over 20 round capacity. He mentioned this to a state police friend, who told him not to worry, that he would take them out of state. The dealer told the officer that they would share a cell, as it is illegal in MD to transfer, in any way or to anybody, a magazine over 20 rounds. Only the legal owner can take the magazine out of state and the legal owner was a disabled widow.
All of this nonsense, of course, has eliminated crime in the state. Sure.
Jim
All of this nonsense, of course, has eliminated crime in the state. Sure.
Jim
Very true and I'm aware of this as much as anyone. However those that are wrong are generally ignorant of the law and the friend whom I asked is a fellow gun enthusiast. Also with a new change in the law the dept would have had to be notified of the change and even ignorant officers would remember something this recent.
The biggest factor is that laws can't just be enacted without any warning and this law has been on the books for 13 years. There's no way it could have been changed overnight without anyone knowning anything about it.
geekWithA.45
Moderator Emeritus
Sigh...here we go again.
Long story short: a few years back a regulatory change was proposed to clarify that "blocked magazine" meant _permanently_ blocked magazine.
After a letter writing campaign, the regulatory change was shot down.
In the process of doing this, it documented the fact that temporarily blocked magazines had been deemed acceptable, and brought it into judicial notice.
As a result, this situation cannot be reversed except via the legislative or regulatory processes.
NJ cops have demonstrated stupefying ignorance of their own gloriously convoluted gunlaws, not that I can blame them.
While the state cops might be wandering around shooting off their mouths, their words do not create laws.
Incidentally, this sort of thing strikes me as one of those moments when "constructive notice" would be usefull. I'm unfamiliar with the exact mechanics, but IIRC, an officer of the law is presumed to be acting in good faith, and therefore protected from civil and criminal liability if he arrests you based on his mistaken interpretation of law, UNLESS constructive notice, outlining and documenting the actual nature of the law is served, which strips away those protections, and leaves the officer liable.
If someone with a law degree would care to comment on my understanding of constructive notice, I'd be much obliged.
Long story short: a few years back a regulatory change was proposed to clarify that "blocked magazine" meant _permanently_ blocked magazine.
After a letter writing campaign, the regulatory change was shot down.
In the process of doing this, it documented the fact that temporarily blocked magazines had been deemed acceptable, and brought it into judicial notice.
As a result, this situation cannot be reversed except via the legislative or regulatory processes.
NJ cops have demonstrated stupefying ignorance of their own gloriously convoluted gunlaws, not that I can blame them.
While the state cops might be wandering around shooting off their mouths, their words do not create laws.
Incidentally, this sort of thing strikes me as one of those moments when "constructive notice" would be usefull. I'm unfamiliar with the exact mechanics, but IIRC, an officer of the law is presumed to be acting in good faith, and therefore protected from civil and criminal liability if he arrests you based on his mistaken interpretation of law, UNLESS constructive notice, outlining and documenting the actual nature of the law is served, which strips away those protections, and leaves the officer liable.
If someone with a law degree would care to comment on my understanding of constructive notice, I'd be much obliged.
HI CAP MAGS VS NJ
Ok guys i am JIMBO, and i posted the message on ar15.com, below you will see another thread on the same site in reference to the same matter. Remember--most people are lead like sheep to the slaughter--dont be one of them--nj is known for the underhanded changes--i will state some more changes a year ago after you all absorb the following 2nd thread on the hi caps. I was also at my gun club today wearing a 30 rd. orlite mag around my neck, and the dealer who filled me in went crazy!!!! read on:
Ok, here's some background on this whole messy thing. Phil at the Brick Armory was visited by the NJSP and as always, everything was ship-shape. The reason for the visit was because a customer of his got jammed up when he decided to go outside of his apartment with his ol' black rifle when he heard what he thought was gunfire (it was fireworks). Bunch of kids saw him strutting around playing ARMY and the local PD(10 MAN SWAT TEAM) later paid him a visit. Some high caps for a different firearm (SAR-1) that was purchased through Phil were found - and they were blocked in accordance with NJ law. Problem was, they found non-blocked hi caps for several firearms as well and this stand up gentleman told them that he purchased them from Phil. That's the reason "they" were there. And again, everything on Phil's end was in order and I highly doubt that he would risk losing his business and freedom by selling non-blocked hi caps to anyone - including this apartment complex commando. If the NJSP notified local PD's like the initial post in the other forum stated, nothing has been put out where I work. I think it was a recommendation to Phil from the Firearms Unit that he might want to rethink selling the blocked hi caps - because the rule is open to interpretation.(NOTE--OPEN TO INTERPERTATION!!!!!) ONE COP CAN LOCK YOU UP AND ANOTHER CAN LET YOU SLIDE???? OUR GREAT GOVENER MR "MAN GRAVY" GETS AWAY AND WE SUFFER!!!!
Ok guys i am JIMBO, and i posted the message on ar15.com, below you will see another thread on the same site in reference to the same matter. Remember--most people are lead like sheep to the slaughter--dont be one of them--nj is known for the underhanded changes--i will state some more changes a year ago after you all absorb the following 2nd thread on the hi caps. I was also at my gun club today wearing a 30 rd. orlite mag around my neck, and the dealer who filled me in went crazy!!!! read on:
Ok, here's some background on this whole messy thing. Phil at the Brick Armory was visited by the NJSP and as always, everything was ship-shape. The reason for the visit was because a customer of his got jammed up when he decided to go outside of his apartment with his ol' black rifle when he heard what he thought was gunfire (it was fireworks). Bunch of kids saw him strutting around playing ARMY and the local PD(10 MAN SWAT TEAM) later paid him a visit. Some high caps for a different firearm (SAR-1) that was purchased through Phil were found - and they were blocked in accordance with NJ law. Problem was, they found non-blocked hi caps for several firearms as well and this stand up gentleman told them that he purchased them from Phil. That's the reason "they" were there. And again, everything on Phil's end was in order and I highly doubt that he would risk losing his business and freedom by selling non-blocked hi caps to anyone - including this apartment complex commando. If the NJSP notified local PD's like the initial post in the other forum stated, nothing has been put out where I work. I think it was a recommendation to Phil from the Firearms Unit that he might want to rethink selling the blocked hi caps - because the rule is open to interpretation.(NOTE--OPEN TO INTERPERTATION!!!!!) ONE COP CAN LOCK YOU UP AND ANOTHER CAN LET YOU SLIDE???? OUR GREAT GOVENER MR "MAN GRAVY" GETS AWAY AND WE SUFFER!!!!
Wolfy
Member
Jimbo I was down at CJR&P today and Phil caught up with Nappen. The version he told Nappen was the State Police came into his store and told him the AG said that all hi caps including blocked are illegal and Nappen's seemed surprised to here it and that it is a preemptive move to stop the AWB repeal on 9/13.
I also heard about that guy in Wall walking around an apartment complex with an AR!!!!!.
I also heard about that guy in Wall walking around an apartment complex with an AR!!!!!.
Found this on AR15.COM
I just spoke w/ the NJSP firearms unit. I was told that the AG will need to change the administrative code in oder to stop the blocked mags. The Trooper could not provide a time frame on this.
If someone has different info from the NJSP please post so we can sort it out.
Mike
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=9&t=183807
I just spoke w/ the NJSP firearms unit. I was told that the AG will need to change the administrative code in oder to stop the blocked mags. The Trooper could not provide a time frame on this.
If someone has different info from the NJSP please post so we can sort it out.
Mike
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=9&t=183807
Travis McGee
Member
I'd be very careful. The gun gestapo in NJ would not be above making some arrests just for the publicity. You could be financially ruined even if you eventually beat the charges.
Sam Adams
Member
Wolfy
PRNJ law regarding normal capacity magazines and the federal AWB have NOTHING to do with each other. It was illegal in the PRNJ well before the AWB to have mags with >15 round capacity - I know, as I used to live in that Socialist, gun-hating $hithole. I fondly and distinctly remember several trips to PA gun shows before the federal AWB was passed, in which I picked up many, many brand new 20- and 30-round mags of various types, just to feel good about breaking the Florio gun ban.
PRNJ law regarding normal capacity magazines and the federal AWB have NOTHING to do with each other. It was illegal in the PRNJ well before the AWB to have mags with >15 round capacity - I know, as I used to live in that Socialist, gun-hating $hithole. I fondly and distinctly remember several trips to PA gun shows before the federal AWB was passed, in which I picked up many, many brand new 20- and 30-round mags of various types, just to feel good about breaking the Florio gun ban.
More from the NJCSD.ORG forum
" Quote
...what I don't understand is why State Troopers are telling Phil at the Brick Armory that they are indeed ILLEGAL. Can you please explain this to me?
Probably for the same reason some individual municipalities try to charge $50+ for a pistol permit - they've found that most people don't know the law, and that they can take advantage of it.
I ran into a small problem here in my town when I was applying for my firearms ID. In the course of conversation I had mentioned that I had already been doing some shooting, and the clerk taking care of my paperwork asked me how this was possible since I didn't own a firearm. I told her that I had been renting at the range, and using my brother's guns when he went along with me, and she expressed what can only be described as abject horror - "RENTING???" She had no idea such a thing was done. I told her to look up the statute regarding temporary transfer, and to get back to me if she had any questions.
I always tell my students who are going to apply for a permit for the first time - study the statutes, take copies with you just in case your town decides to try to rip you off. A well-informed person can't be taken advantage of by authorities who seem to have no problem making this stuff up as they go along.
--------------
Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great.
-- Mark Twain
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Rovert
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The larger issue I think all of these things bring out, and the common denominator underlying it all, is that there's no ACCOUNTABILITY on the part of municipalities, and no advocate for us. There's no "watchdog" to hold towns and officials accountable for their failure to perform.
There's nobody to force municialities to issue an FID within the state mandated time frame. There's nobody to force towns like Toms River to abandon its policy of extortion regarding re-fingerprinting and the surcharge for it, despite the fact that it's in contravention to state law. There's nobody out there to hold a municipality to a timetable that requires them to issue purchase permits on time... and so on, and so on.
As an organization, we had hoped that by now we'd have many more members and as a result, a larger treasury that would enable us to have a "Legal Action Fund" to obtain professional legal support from someone like Nappen to start "going after" townships that interfere with our rights, and operate outside their state mandated rules and regulations. If the NJCSD could gain a reputation for being a 'watchdog' that has a bite as big as our bark, all it would then take is a single phone call to get things done. It would be great if we could be kind of like the ACLU for RKBA issues, where we have a "SWAT" team of legal talent to get things done.
That said, there are LOTS of things that the NJCSD, as an organization, is ready and willing to do. More specifically, we have BETTER IDEAS, because we have a more creative leadership than "the other guys". But that's another discussion, entirely.
--------------
"Following the path of least resistance is what makes rivers, and men, crooked."
Both prostitution and politics are referred to as the world's oldest profession. Seems to me they're in the same business, the only difference is whether they do it to you when the lights are on or off.
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BRN169
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Posts: 138
Joined: Nov. 2002 Posted: Sep. 01 2004,12:34
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People are under the assumption that those that enforce the laws know them. Having no less than 8 close family members that are in law enforcement I can tell you plain and simple they do not know everything. There was talk of this change and who knows through word of mouth how the facts got distorted. It is also quite possible that an officers anti-gun viewpoint could be to blame... They may feel they are doing the lords work by causing law abiding gun owners grief, who knows. Bottom line, they are not obligated to instruct you about the law. It is your obligation to know the law and seek council if you can't figure it out alone...
Don't forget the Phil factor... He may just want to get out of the blocked-hi-cap business altogether after that chucklehead brought the State to his door...
" Quote
...what I don't understand is why State Troopers are telling Phil at the Brick Armory that they are indeed ILLEGAL. Can you please explain this to me?
Probably for the same reason some individual municipalities try to charge $50+ for a pistol permit - they've found that most people don't know the law, and that they can take advantage of it.
I ran into a small problem here in my town when I was applying for my firearms ID. In the course of conversation I had mentioned that I had already been doing some shooting, and the clerk taking care of my paperwork asked me how this was possible since I didn't own a firearm. I told her that I had been renting at the range, and using my brother's guns when he went along with me, and she expressed what can only be described as abject horror - "RENTING???" She had no idea such a thing was done. I told her to look up the statute regarding temporary transfer, and to get back to me if she had any questions.
I always tell my students who are going to apply for a permit for the first time - study the statutes, take copies with you just in case your town decides to try to rip you off. A well-informed person can't be taken advantage of by authorities who seem to have no problem making this stuff up as they go along.
--------------
Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great.
-- Mark Twain
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Rovert
Trustee/Officer
Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 1310
Joined: Nov. 2002 Posted: Sep. 01 2004,11:45
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The larger issue I think all of these things bring out, and the common denominator underlying it all, is that there's no ACCOUNTABILITY on the part of municipalities, and no advocate for us. There's no "watchdog" to hold towns and officials accountable for their failure to perform.
There's nobody to force municialities to issue an FID within the state mandated time frame. There's nobody to force towns like Toms River to abandon its policy of extortion regarding re-fingerprinting and the surcharge for it, despite the fact that it's in contravention to state law. There's nobody out there to hold a municipality to a timetable that requires them to issue purchase permits on time... and so on, and so on.
As an organization, we had hoped that by now we'd have many more members and as a result, a larger treasury that would enable us to have a "Legal Action Fund" to obtain professional legal support from someone like Nappen to start "going after" townships that interfere with our rights, and operate outside their state mandated rules and regulations. If the NJCSD could gain a reputation for being a 'watchdog' that has a bite as big as our bark, all it would then take is a single phone call to get things done. It would be great if we could be kind of like the ACLU for RKBA issues, where we have a "SWAT" team of legal talent to get things done.
That said, there are LOTS of things that the NJCSD, as an organization, is ready and willing to do. More specifically, we have BETTER IDEAS, because we have a more creative leadership than "the other guys". But that's another discussion, entirely.
--------------
"Following the path of least resistance is what makes rivers, and men, crooked."
Both prostitution and politics are referred to as the world's oldest profession. Seems to me they're in the same business, the only difference is whether they do it to you when the lights are on or off.
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BRN169
Group: Sr.Members
Posts: 138
Joined: Nov. 2002 Posted: Sep. 01 2004,12:34
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People are under the assumption that those that enforce the laws know them. Having no less than 8 close family members that are in law enforcement I can tell you plain and simple they do not know everything. There was talk of this change and who knows through word of mouth how the facts got distorted. It is also quite possible that an officers anti-gun viewpoint could be to blame... They may feel they are doing the lords work by causing law abiding gun owners grief, who knows. Bottom line, they are not obligated to instruct you about the law. It is your obligation to know the law and seek council if you can't figure it out alone...
Don't forget the Phil factor... He may just want to get out of the blocked-hi-cap business altogether after that chucklehead brought the State to his door...
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