NineseveN
member
Wow, no one flushed this toilet yet? 
Gangbangers in gun stores?
- Thread starter IcebergDave
- Start date
- Status
There were a couple of guys matching this thread's description in my local store two or three Saturdays ago. I tend to see sartorial style as personal preference, not an indicator of past or future behavior.
When I noticed the purchaser's CHL, that was enough for me to realize my increased attention was unwarranted.
-Jeff
When I noticed the purchaser's CHL, that was enough for me to realize my increased attention was unwarranted.
-Jeff
gitarmac
Member
Quote:
So if they came in wearing a suit and tie it would be OK?
Yes, if someone is coming in wearing a suit and tie, not flashing gang symbols, not looking at a gun then calling someone and giving them a wad of cash to purchase it, then there would not be as much cause for suspicion.
You see, frequently appearances are clues to a persons behaviour and values. When a group of people, call them a "gang" if you would, approach another group of people, and the first group is wearing their pants beneath their buttocks, flashing gang symbols, using profanity, and surrounds the 2nd group and address them in a negative way, it can mean trouble, like a robbery or something.
If you walk down wall street, or a business plaza, or a bank, and a bunch of people in suits and ties walk past you, stop and look at your, they probably want directions.
They post pics in our paper of the local criminals, there are a lot of them, and so far nary a one has been wearing a suit and tie.
Some people wouldn't be caught dead in a suit and tie, some wouldnt be caught dead wearing baggy pants down to their knees with gang tattoos, each group has certain characteristics.
Jeese, this is sad that I actually have to explain this, I guess the media has done it's job.
So if they came in wearing a suit and tie it would be OK?
Yes, if someone is coming in wearing a suit and tie, not flashing gang symbols, not looking at a gun then calling someone and giving them a wad of cash to purchase it, then there would not be as much cause for suspicion.
You see, frequently appearances are clues to a persons behaviour and values. When a group of people, call them a "gang" if you would, approach another group of people, and the first group is wearing their pants beneath their buttocks, flashing gang symbols, using profanity, and surrounds the 2nd group and address them in a negative way, it can mean trouble, like a robbery or something.
If you walk down wall street, or a business plaza, or a bank, and a bunch of people in suits and ties walk past you, stop and look at your, they probably want directions.
They post pics in our paper of the local criminals, there are a lot of them, and so far nary a one has been wearing a suit and tie.
Some people wouldn't be caught dead in a suit and tie, some wouldnt be caught dead wearing baggy pants down to their knees with gang tattoos, each group has certain characteristics.
Jeese, this is sad that I actually have to explain this, I guess the media has done it's job.
offthepaper
Member
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2005
- Messages
- 1,446
"I guess the only question I have for Iceberg Dave is what constitutes someone looking like a gangbanger to you?"
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One of the worst things about stereotypes is that they're often true. 
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One of the worst things about stereotypes is that they're often true.
flashman70
Member
Much has been said here about perceptions and assumptions as applied to social status, race and good or bad intentions. It is unavoidable and in many cases probably advisable. That said I'm sure we all strive to take people as they come and not deal in stereotypes.
The original post addressed shady characters in gun shops. Our local range/store is in a deteriorating section of what is known in No. VA as the "Rt1 corridor". This is synonymous with "bad part of town." As such there are lots of low cost rental properties that attract the "working poor" and other folks of modest means. Naturally the young blacks have adopted the urban, hip hop look and strive to appear "hard." Often they congregate around the strip mall in which the gun store is located. Those that come into the store to look at guns and/or use the range, however are most often enjoyable to talk to and share our interest in firearms. I may be nervous about those hardcases outside the store, but inside we're all gun nuts.
As for strawman purchases I have been tempted. My wife and I have a 2nd home in SC and go to ranges there. When we see a pistol we'd really like to buy, we realize we can't without a SC drivers license. Contemplating the hassle and deferred gratification involved in purchasing it and picking it up in VA, I've thought maybe our neighbor (and SC resident) Bob would buy it......but no, I'm too old to become a scofflaw. But the thought does creep in.....
The original post addressed shady characters in gun shops. Our local range/store is in a deteriorating section of what is known in No. VA as the "Rt1 corridor". This is synonymous with "bad part of town." As such there are lots of low cost rental properties that attract the "working poor" and other folks of modest means. Naturally the young blacks have adopted the urban, hip hop look and strive to appear "hard." Often they congregate around the strip mall in which the gun store is located. Those that come into the store to look at guns and/or use the range, however are most often enjoyable to talk to and share our interest in firearms. I may be nervous about those hardcases outside the store, but inside we're all gun nuts.
As for strawman purchases I have been tempted. My wife and I have a 2nd home in SC and go to ranges there. When we see a pistol we'd really like to buy, we realize we can't without a SC drivers license. Contemplating the hassle and deferred gratification involved in purchasing it and picking it up in VA, I've thought maybe our neighbor (and SC resident) Bob would buy it......but no, I'm too old to become a scofflaw. But the thought does creep in.....
Deanimator
Member
If you're in a gunstore in the Chicago suburbs and you think you see "gang members", the odds are that they're cops trying to entrap the owner. That's been Dick Daley's schtick for a long time. They then release footage to the local anti-gun media. Strangely, there never seems to be any sound on the videos that are released...
gitarmac
Member
which brings me to my next point
the liberal gun grabbing left isn't going to care that you liberal open minded shop owners didn't judge or stereotype anyone, when you sell someone a gun and they wind up on the news, a gang leader, on some murder charge, the media will simply point out how the guns shops will sell to guns to criminals.
the liberal gun grabbing left isn't going to care that you liberal open minded shop owners didn't judge or stereotype anyone, when you sell someone a gun and they wind up on the news, a gang leader, on some murder charge, the media will simply point out how the guns shops will sell to guns to criminals.
Stainless Chili
Member
Howard Hughes strolled, late, into Boeing, in P.J.s, barefoot, munching a sandwich, and bought half a billion dollars worth of planes.
gitarmac
Member
Just a blurb:
The city's law department singled out the 15 gun shops after hiring private investigators who fanned out to dealers in the five states over the past several weeks.
Wearing hidden cameras, the investigators entered stores in teams of two and attempted "straw purchases," in which the buyer completes the paperwork and passes the background check, but later hands over the weapon to someone else who is not allowed to own a firearm.
The scam, prohibited by federal law, is typically used by people who are under 21 or convicted felons. The 15 dealers named in the suit sold guns to the undercover investigators. The city said the sales were refused at about 30 other shops.
The owners of two Georgia gun stores named in the lawsuit denied Monday that they did anything wrong.
Earl Driggers, the owner of A-1 Jewelry and Pawn, said he cooperated with police when they staged a sting at his shop, and believes he has always complied with the law.
"We certainly do everything we can to make sure guns don't leave our store illegally," Driggers said. "I don't know what you're supposed to do. If a guy comes in and meets all the criteria and you comply with the law, I don't know what you do."
They got big toms in savannah ga. I guess all that open mindedness and political correct non-judgementalness may have worked against some of the shops. I'll bet if they exercised a little more profiling and a little less head in the sand they wouldn't be in this trouble.
I hope everything turns out allright for them. I got my last 2 guns, no make that 3, from them. Sometimes there are some shady looking customers in there but the area is pretty populated with thugs and thug wannabees.
The city's law department singled out the 15 gun shops after hiring private investigators who fanned out to dealers in the five states over the past several weeks.
Wearing hidden cameras, the investigators entered stores in teams of two and attempted "straw purchases," in which the buyer completes the paperwork and passes the background check, but later hands over the weapon to someone else who is not allowed to own a firearm.
The scam, prohibited by federal law, is typically used by people who are under 21 or convicted felons. The 15 dealers named in the suit sold guns to the undercover investigators. The city said the sales were refused at about 30 other shops.
The owners of two Georgia gun stores named in the lawsuit denied Monday that they did anything wrong.
Earl Driggers, the owner of A-1 Jewelry and Pawn, said he cooperated with police when they staged a sting at his shop, and believes he has always complied with the law.
"We certainly do everything we can to make sure guns don't leave our store illegally," Driggers said. "I don't know what you're supposed to do. If a guy comes in and meets all the criteria and you comply with the law, I don't know what you do."
They got big toms in savannah ga. I guess all that open mindedness and political correct non-judgementalness may have worked against some of the shops. I'll bet if they exercised a little more profiling and a little less head in the sand they wouldn't be in this trouble.
I hope everything turns out allright for them. I got my last 2 guns, no make that 3, from them. Sometimes there are some shady looking customers in there but the area is pretty populated with thugs and thug wannabees.
RustyShackelford
member
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2006
- Messages
- 4,018
Chicago PD/UC-LEOs/gun shops/straw purchases
Hi
I recall a news item a few years ago where sworn LEOs in the Chicago PD "dressed up" like thugs/gang members going into area gun stores and "talking" about using the various weapons. It was a real scam! :banghead:
Watch out for the "banger" types they could be undercover cops or even ATFE Inspectors checking to see if the store employees are following al the gun laws.
I lived in a "bad" area of Pittsburgh PA and when I would go to check out the firearms at my local gun shop, the store clerks would get nervous and ask the shop customers more questions. I think they tought I was some kind of federal LEO whol lived near the store.
RS
Hi
I recall a news item a few years ago where sworn LEOs in the Chicago PD "dressed up" like thugs/gang members going into area gun stores and "talking" about using the various weapons. It was a real scam! :banghead:
Watch out for the "banger" types they could be undercover cops or even ATFE Inspectors checking to see if the store employees are following al the gun laws.
I lived in a "bad" area of Pittsburgh PA and when I would go to check out the firearms at my local gun shop, the store clerks would get nervous and ask the shop customers more questions. I think they tought I was some kind of federal LEO whol lived near the store.
RS
RangerHAAF
Member
In all honesty, I did see an obvious straw purchase at one of the gun shops that Bloomberg's lawsuit is targeting. I'm not going to specify which shop it is but what the buyers were doing was obvious to everybody. The buyer was a female and paid cash for at least 20 of those ultra cheap 9mm's. I presume that the male she was with was her boyfriend; they then borrowed the store owner's hand truck to wheel the guns out to their car.
After seeing this performance, maybe one handgun per month is not a bad idea for anyone that doesn't have a CCW.
After seeing this performance, maybe one handgun per month is not a bad idea for anyone that doesn't have a CCW.
wheelgunslinger
Member
Doesn't really sound like you have to profile as a gun shop employee/owner. You just have to be mindful of everyone and watch who is breaking the law regardless of clothing.
I have customers who pay cash for motorcycles. In fact, recently two guys came in with a lockbox full of cash and bought 2 sportbikes. They looked like hoodrats, and they smelled like they each had a dank bud in each pocket. Since I don't work in law enforcement, I wasn't worried about their cash or their buds. Of course, recently, I sold a yamaha Rhino™ to a guy who was white, middle to late aged, and formerly was a LEO who paid in cash to the tune of several thousand g's.
did I wonder where the money came from? sure. How does an honest cop retire and have enough money to buy a 42 thousand dollar diesel dualie, a 2nd home at the beach, a country club membership, and a nearly $10,000 atv toy?
I also wondered about the young men that rolled in to the parking lot in a blinged out donk 79 Caprice. Where'd they get 10 g's?
But, I work for a living, invest pretty wisely, and am not middle aged and somehow am able to pay cash for anything I want. So, it's not that uncommon for me to walk around with 1000 dollars on my person at all times.
You can conjecture all you want about gang bangers vs. people in suits, but it comes down to RKBA and who is and is not breaking the law.
After all, I see an awful lot of young black men dressing like gang bangers just to get along the same way I see young rural white guys jacking up their trucks, shaving their heads, growing goatees, and putting rebel flags on everything they own. People are just trying to get along and looking like a tough guy has always been a way to do that.
When I was a long hair with wire rimmed glasses just a year or so ago, I got a lot of stereotypical comments in the gun shop. And, when I went to the gym, I had cops eyeballing me all the time and making whispered comments to each other. Now, I have a mil-spec haircut (I donated my hair to lockoflove.org) and wear contacts and am a pretty clean cut guy. Cops chat me up in the lockerroom and on the gym floor now, like I'm one of them (I bought a shirt that reads "Pleae don't spit in my food. I'm not a cop"). Even my co-workers call me "Trooper".
The way you dress and groom yourself will make a difference. But, young people haven't had time to realize that, or aren't in a place where they can effect that change because all they want to do is fit in and be part of the group. And, that's okay. Part of growing up is finding yourself. And so is learning to deal with other's prejudices.
So, really all that matters is who breaks the law, not how you dress. I don't like Gangbangers anymore than I like rogue cops, unfair laws, or racism/classism. But, we don't live in a perfect world, do we?
I have customers who pay cash for motorcycles. In fact, recently two guys came in with a lockbox full of cash and bought 2 sportbikes. They looked like hoodrats, and they smelled like they each had a dank bud in each pocket. Since I don't work in law enforcement, I wasn't worried about their cash or their buds. Of course, recently, I sold a yamaha Rhino™ to a guy who was white, middle to late aged, and formerly was a LEO who paid in cash to the tune of several thousand g's.
did I wonder where the money came from? sure. How does an honest cop retire and have enough money to buy a 42 thousand dollar diesel dualie, a 2nd home at the beach, a country club membership, and a nearly $10,000 atv toy?
I also wondered about the young men that rolled in to the parking lot in a blinged out donk 79 Caprice. Where'd they get 10 g's?
But, I work for a living, invest pretty wisely, and am not middle aged and somehow am able to pay cash for anything I want. So, it's not that uncommon for me to walk around with 1000 dollars on my person at all times.
You can conjecture all you want about gang bangers vs. people in suits, but it comes down to RKBA and who is and is not breaking the law.
After all, I see an awful lot of young black men dressing like gang bangers just to get along the same way I see young rural white guys jacking up their trucks, shaving their heads, growing goatees, and putting rebel flags on everything they own. People are just trying to get along and looking like a tough guy has always been a way to do that.
When I was a long hair with wire rimmed glasses just a year or so ago, I got a lot of stereotypical comments in the gun shop. And, when I went to the gym, I had cops eyeballing me all the time and making whispered comments to each other. Now, I have a mil-spec haircut (I donated my hair to lockoflove.org) and wear contacts and am a pretty clean cut guy. Cops chat me up in the lockerroom and on the gym floor now, like I'm one of them (I bought a shirt that reads "Pleae don't spit in my food. I'm not a cop"). Even my co-workers call me "Trooper".
The way you dress and groom yourself will make a difference. But, young people haven't had time to realize that, or aren't in a place where they can effect that change because all they want to do is fit in and be part of the group. And, that's okay. Part of growing up is finding yourself. And so is learning to deal with other's prejudices.
So, really all that matters is who breaks the law, not how you dress. I don't like Gangbangers anymore than I like rogue cops, unfair laws, or racism/classism. But, we don't live in a perfect world, do we?
kjeff50cal
Member
Yo, I thought this shizzal on the pizzal would be over, ya' here.
peace out .
peace out
.GANG BANGERS
I learned a long time ago(through personal experence)that you can't judge a book by it's cover. BUT-It still makes me wonder a little when Mr. pants crotch to his knees, I HATE EVERYBODY T-shirt, cap wearin' sideways KID comes into the range to "POP SOME CAPS WITH MY BROTHERS" what the hell he's thinkin'? I watch myself a little closer!:banghead:
I learned a long time ago(through personal experence)that you can't judge a book by it's cover. BUT-It still makes me wonder a little when Mr. pants crotch to his knees, I HATE EVERYBODY T-shirt, cap wearin' sideways KID comes into the range to "POP SOME CAPS WITH MY BROTHERS" what the hell he's thinkin'? I watch myself a little closer!:banghead:
silverlance
Member
the way some of these folks describe "gangstas"
makes me wonder if they've ever actually been in the ghetto.
their descriptions seem as if they're straight out of hollywierd, and speaking as someone who is smack dab in the middle of "it", I'm not quite sure where these bizarre caricatures of the "nigg*s in the hood" come from.
while there are some folks who walk around in multiple gold chains and sport bulbous sunglasses, most of the time they treated just as much as wierdos by the folks around here. +1 to whoever made the comment about looking at the face - that's what you have to look at, if you're going to walk downtown. doesn't matter how fast on the draw you think you are, if you're busy looking at the clothes and miss seeing the change of expression in the eyes, stance, or other body language you're going to be on the heavy end of the hammer.
kid i know was in front of his house monday night. a car pulls up and starts talking some smack. kid tells the guys to come out to throw down, and when they open the door he begins to pull his shirt off. while his shirt is still up the guy (black guy, his folks say) puts five shots in com, all in a few seconds. drt, then last two nights in retaliation for it his gangster friends (the kid wasn't in a gang, just foolishly aggresive) killed four guys.
it's tempting for us gun owners to think ourselves somehow superior to the gangsters and riff raff, as if we're all delta force and the enemy bears flintlocks. these "gangstas" aren't as dumb as they make everyone think and they may very well practice just as much as the average thr guy does.
makes me wonder if they've ever actually been in the ghetto.
their descriptions seem as if they're straight out of hollywierd, and speaking as someone who is smack dab in the middle of "it", I'm not quite sure where these bizarre caricatures of the "nigg*s in the hood" come from.
while there are some folks who walk around in multiple gold chains and sport bulbous sunglasses, most of the time they treated just as much as wierdos by the folks around here. +1 to whoever made the comment about looking at the face - that's what you have to look at, if you're going to walk downtown. doesn't matter how fast on the draw you think you are, if you're busy looking at the clothes and miss seeing the change of expression in the eyes, stance, or other body language you're going to be on the heavy end of the hammer.
kid i know was in front of his house monday night. a car pulls up and starts talking some smack. kid tells the guys to come out to throw down, and when they open the door he begins to pull his shirt off. while his shirt is still up the guy (black guy, his folks say) puts five shots in com, all in a few seconds. drt, then last two nights in retaliation for it his gangster friends (the kid wasn't in a gang, just foolishly aggresive) killed four guys.
it's tempting for us gun owners to think ourselves somehow superior to the gangsters and riff raff, as if we're all delta force and the enemy bears flintlocks. these "gangstas" aren't as dumb as they make everyone think and they may very well practice just as much as the average thr guy does.
+1 on the eyes telling the real story, however baggy cloathing is much better for conceling a handgun, I'm not as worried about a guy in a mesh tank top.
The ghetto G style of dressing seems to have evolved primarily as a way of conceling substance or armeremants upon the person. For alot of people now its just a 'cool' way to dress. but for anyone who's ever carried, you know how easy it is to hide a decent sized piece under all of that.
just my 2 cents.
and you can't blame a guy for worrying about straw purchases, the store's licence is at risk if you go through with it.
The ghetto G style of dressing seems to have evolved primarily as a way of conceling substance or armeremants upon the person. For alot of people now its just a 'cool' way to dress. but for anyone who's ever carried, you know how easy it is to hide a decent sized piece under all of that.
just my 2 cents.
and you can't blame a guy for worrying about straw purchases, the store's licence is at risk if you go through with it.
NineseveN
member
Silverlance has it nailed, and some of you need to read his words until they sink in.
*chuckle* Stilleto Null (.. I'm too lazy to go back and check if thats the username) mentioning the guys at PDHSC talking about some of the people that come through the store makes me wonder just what they thought or said about me..
I've tried to do my homework on pistols. I don't own any, and I've only fired them a few times. So I'm sure it showed. I walked in the first time in cargo shorts, a 6 year old t-shirt, really long hair, hadn't shaved in days, and I'm asian. I asked to see a SIG, Springfield XD, and a S&W SW99 (all in 9mm).
I certainly wouldn't call the clothes I wear a gangbanger style. But all the same I'm sure I don't project a "gunowner aura." Which... would makes sense. I don't own any. Although I hope to soon be changing that.
I've tried to do my homework on pistols. I don't own any, and I've only fired them a few times. So I'm sure it showed. I walked in the first time in cargo shorts, a 6 year old t-shirt, really long hair, hadn't shaved in days, and I'm asian. I asked to see a SIG, Springfield XD, and a S&W SW99 (all in 9mm).
I certainly wouldn't call the clothes I wear a gangbanger style. But all the same I'm sure I don't project a "gunowner aura." Which... would makes sense. I don't own any. Although I hope to soon be changing that.
chaingunner
Member
I'm a white 22 year old who usually wears his combat boots on liberty, with blue jeans and white or black shirts. I did the "new gun dance" as soon as I got home with my Mosin-Nagant (I thought it would be improper to do the NGD in the store).
edit: regarding homeboy nytesytes: Wouldn't that work? A bullet does rise a bit as it travels through the air, as we all know, so if you hold a pistol sideways, the bullet is still doin it's thing, and thus sights on the side of the slide ought to do the trick, right?
let's not even get started about how recoil would be harder to manage and bla bla blah...I'm just sayin, the sighting system itself might be possible...
edit: regarding homeboy nytesytes: Wouldn't that work? A bullet does rise a bit as it travels through the air, as we all know, so if you hold a pistol sideways, the bullet is still doin it's thing, and thus sights on the side of the slide ought to do the trick, right?
let's not even get started about how recoil would be harder to manage and bla bla blah...I'm just sayin, the sighting system itself might be possible...
Bullets do not rise as they travel. That is a fairly common myth. What can happen, is a slower bullet may strike higher than a faster one from the same firearm, because the POA (point of aim) is set for the faster bullet, and the slower bullet has longer in the barrel, which is rising as the gun recoils.
John (welcome to THR, btw!)
John (welcome to THR, btw!)
Bill T
member
On the subject of race. I live in a suburb of Phoenix. Phoenix is having a tremendous problem with illeagle Mexican invaders. I use the word invasion because this has nothing to do with immigration. That is a legal process these people refuse to obey. This is changing peoples attitudes all over town. Crime is up, along with road rage and accidents. I myself was rear ended by an illeagle invader who tried to hit and run forceing me to chase him down. No insurance, stolen plates, illeagle as hell. Result, I had to eat a $1,000.00 deductable to have MY INSURANCE repair my car. Arizona has mandatory auto insurance. This means nothing because these illeagles don't obey laws. These people for the most part are arrogant, filthy, and self centered. People, (working, tax paying, white, middle class citizens), have just about had it. Is this racist? The point is, WHO CARES!? This condition didn't exist in this city before they showed up in numbers having babys every 15 minutes with zero health care. I was in my local gun shop the other day, (owner always carries a Glock), when 5 of these non english speaking scum came in talking in Spanish, dirty and loud as hell, the owner immediately threw them out! I don't blame him. I was glad to see him stand up and do it! I could care less about "the good ones", no more than I care about "good Muslims", (whatever they are). I think it's time in this country to stop acting so PC just because a person happens to be white. Was that gun shop owner right to do what he did? YES. Everyone in that store felt far more comfortable afterward. And they, including me, spent money. These fools needed new clothes far more than they "needed" guns. White people are afraid to speak out because every single time a white criticizes a black or hispanic, they immediately start screaming racism. Thats nonsense. A rat is a rat, period! People in this country had better start waking up or this country is going to get flushed real quick! I see it getting worse each and every single day. Bill T.
Why would you, the customer, not make a call to police if what you saw happening was an OBVIOUS straw purchase? Like the post where the guy watched a gangbanger type and his girlfriend purchase so many cheap .380s and 9mm's that they had to be loaded on a hand truck to be put in their trunk. NOT calling the cops on both the straw purchaser AND the dealer does us ALL a dis-service.
Preacherman
Member
Folks, after 223 posts, this one is about done, I think.
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