Garland Business owner's son kills suspected copper thief

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As a young man, before entering the army, I ran with a pretty bad crowd and did things I'm not proud of. Nothing too serious, but illegal and immoral either way. Until one of my buddies was beaten pretty badly by a couple of guys when he broke into their garage trying to steal tools. He spent a couple of days in the hospital and was then sent to juveinille hall. That made me think about where I was heading and more importantly was breaking into a building to steal somebodys stuff worth getting hurt or killed over.

I quickly figured out working for my money was rewarding and even though I couldn't afford the best things I wanted, what I could afford I appeciated and would hate to see stolen.

So don't ask whether a life is worth material things, ask whether it's worth your life to steal material things, because you may lose it you keep on breaking the law.
 
I live out here in West Texas where we have significant thefts from agriculture and oil field related supplies. For years the Sheriff's office would have a car waiting at a specific location with its head lights on illuminating a tank full of Anhydrous ammonia, when thieves would show up the deputy in the car would wait until they started to steal then bust them. Eventually, after a few years, the meth heads moved on to other targets. Now we have a massive amount of metal theft in regards to oil field equipment. Often that equipment is taken to the recyclers who then call the Sheriff's Office and give them the thief's information and when they told them to return to get payment. Unfortunately most of that equipment is never recovered which in turns contributes to an increase in oil prices which means some localities may have to reduce emergency services to stay in budget and could cause layoffs from the EMS, PD, and FD (if its not a VFD).

Lets imaging that a city once had four Ambulance crews, but due to budget constraints caused by high fuel prices they have layed off two of them. Both units are working the scene of a bad wreck and neither can leave that scene (maybe they are both going to be transporting victims) when another call comes in where a 4 month old infant being watched by their twelve year old sibling has a serious injury and needs medical attention or they will die. The 911 dispatcher calls the next city over and gets them to dispatch an ambulance to the scene, the child dies. The total price increase caused by non-felony crimes have contributed to that infants death. Maybe if our thieves had not stole the oil field equipment the fuel prices would not be quite as high and the city could have layed off only one ambulance crew instead of two.

I know one single theft is a minor thing, but you have thousands of thefts costing four or more figures each time and it adds up real quick.
 
I don't think he was shot for stealing copper, the same way I don't think the two intruders in Joe Horn's incident were shot for stealing property. He was caught in the act of burglary by an armed man. He didn't comply with the armed man, and likely threatened him or advanced towards him. So the armed man fired in self defense.
 
From the Oklahoma Constitution:
The right of a citizen to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person, or property, or in aid of the civil power, when thereunto legally summoned, shall never be prohibited; but nothing herein contained shall prevent the Legislature from regulating the carrying of weapons.
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I agree with the comparison to slavery. When you steal from me, you take the product of my time and my labor for your own benefit, and you do it without my consent.

What if I had plans for that money? Maybe I needed that to support my family. Tell me that taking a man's sustenance isn't a serious offense, one worth defending against. This is even more true in cases like the one presented, in which the damages exceed the direct loss, but also include repairs. Further, there's an opportunity cost associated with making the repairs. The financial cost is obvious, but there's also a temporal cost in the time it takes to make repairs. If I have to spend my time fixing things, I can't spend that same time making new things. When I can't run my business, not only am I faced with loss, I'm also faced with a diminished ability to make it up.

Theft is more than just about property. When a thief steals your property, he takes your past, and he takes your future. Somehow, I just can't get worked up over a would-be thief taking the eternal celestial dirt nap.
 
I think it all comes down to the value of the copper that the suspected would-be thief may have been about to steal versus the value of his life.

That's a tough call to make. Anyone who says otherwise has most likely never had to take a human life and live with the consequences.

I smell a civil suit for the shooter.

I also predict a thread-lock in the near future.
 
Best you stay up North then.

Down here, we protect our property which represents what we bust our ass day-in and day-out for to make a living or to enjoy the rewards of decent, honest work.

You, nor anyone else has a right to simply take it because you're too sorry to get into an honest line of work.

Not worth killing over? Fine. Don't point a gun at someone stealing your stuff.

But likewise, don't tell us down here which CRIMINAL behavior we should excuse and which we shouldn't. If you don't want to get shot and die in the course of your professional criminal exploits, then you best stay out of Texas.

And, quite honestly, we don't give a damn what anyone else thinks. Don't like it? Then don't move here. Here and don't like it? Then move back to California or New Jersey or wherever you came from.
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I'll live wherever and say whatever I please, thank you very much.

You yahoos keep this up and you're going to get a supreme court ruling of your own, eventually. If they won't let us execute someone for raping a child, how do you think this is going to fly?

. . .he man wasn't shot on the ground. He had climbed up on the roof and was confronted on the roof by the store owner's son and was shot while going after the owner's son with the tools in his hands. He managed to climb down from the roof after being shot and wandered a short distance before dying.
He was there to steal copper, yes; but he was shot because he went after the shooter after being confronted.
Straight from the mouth of the police spokesperson on Dallas Channel 11 news.
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Now that's a different story. If the dumbass gives any indication he was going to be combative and try to wrestle you for your weapon, then fire away. He wouldn't get away from me, I'll tell you that. The means by which he gets detained by me would be entirely in his hands, and ranges from voluntary compliance, to pepper spray/ass kicking, on up to lead poisoning if the threat so indicates.
 
I think it all comes down to the value of the copper that the suspected would-be thief may have been about to steal versus the value of his life.

I smell a civil suit for the shooter.
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Maybe so. But after you get slapped with $1000's of damage these drug heads cause, you might feel differently. I deal with my own problems and I don't believe in using insurance companies for small claims.
 
There is a very simple solution. If you don't want to get shot then stay don't be a thief, robber, rapist, etc. While I personally don't want to shoot someone over "property" I do think our society is about to reach a tipping point. Our Legal system is not protecting society and sooner or later society is gonna have one of the "shifts" to remedy the situation.
 
Laws aside, is it moral to shoot someone over copper?
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That’s not the question. Is it moral to shoot someone to prevent him from driving your family into poverty? It was not the first time they and been robbed and would probably not have been the last? Does anyone have a better solution? Beyond that, how could the shooter know the thief was not armed? Many of you are feeling sorry for the wrong person.
 
A lot of people seem to place a value on a thief's life that's on the + side of zero...exactly why this discussion is going on. Good grief trolls, you feel bad for the cute little squirrel you ran over...not the criminal breathing your air and taking your livelihood.
 
Lets not forget that every single person that carries any form of insurance is paying higher rates due to thief's. The money being paid out on claims has to come from somewhere and that is every person that pays for insurance. Less Claims being made = Lower cost of coverage to everyone.
 
That’s not the question. Is it moral to shoot someone to prevent him from driving your family into poverty?
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That bears repeating.

I would also repeat the other proper question: Is it worth your life to steal someone else's property? That is a question that thief answered for himself and decided to rob those people anyway. It is a question that many thieves answer every night. I can only wish that more would see more serious consequences. If more did, others might take notice.
 
Did all you bloodthirsty responders ever think that perhaps all the gentleman engaging in some simple nonpermissive alloy recycling needed was a hot cup of coffee, a rousing chorus of Kumbaya, and a little hug to turn his life around? Neanderthal gun nuts!
 
Back "in the day" (1960's and earlier), if you ran from a cop they had the right to shoot you. Now any kid with a good set of legs has a license to steal.

While I don't think someone's life is worth 10' of copper pipe, the perp also must feel his life has little value if he's willing to risk it for so little.
 
Laws aside, is it moral to shoot someone over copper?

Yes.

OK. If your head isn't clear as to why, try this:

If somebody attempted to enslave you, you'd have every right to kill them. They're thieves: they're stealing your future labor.

Explain please how stealing your past labor is any different than stealing your future labor.

Society benefits when a copper thief dies. Period.
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Slavery as it relates to copper theft--interesting perspective.

I never considered myself soft on criminals, but I totally disagree with killing someone who is stealing an inanimate object--I think there is something inherently wrong with that. Quite frankly, if I had a family member killed over such a thing, the shooter would meet the same fate at the hands of my family. If a criminal intends to harm someone, that is a different story. In the case of thefts, though, where do we draw the line? Would it be OK to kill a teenager siphoning gas from your car late at night? If you say yes, would it be OK if I killed your kid for siphoning my gas? I thought society had evolved a little more than that.
 
Quite frankly, if I had a family member killed over such a thing, the shooter would meet the same fate at the hands of my family.
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And this is what it all boils down to. I saw it COUNTLESS times during my years of law enforcement all over this country, and even overseas. And put quite simply, it's the prevailing attitude, so aptly stated above, of:

My family is worth more than yours, and you have no right judging them for any transgressions they take against you that WE don't approve of.

Let me give you a hint: Don't want a family member killed over a THEFT? Then make sure the SOB doesn't become a THIEF.

How simple is that . . .

If a criminal intends to harm someone, that is a different story. In the case of thefts, though, where do we draw the line?
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Where do "we" draw the line? Hey, your line obviously doesn't exist since you believe no property is worth defending, so your question is basically rhetorical to some.

I grew up in a ranching family. My grandaddy shot and killed more than one sorry piece of dung who tried stealing his cattle or horses. And the law down here says if you steal a man's horse and he catches and kills you, tough luck.

Bottom line is if you are on or in my property without my permission, you're future is looking awful bleak at that particular moment. If you're stealing from me after illegally entering my property or criminally trespassing on it, your future is in serious trouble.

You've already committed one crime against me by breaking and entering or trespassing, and now you're committing another by stealing--and you want ME to draw the line?

And you say if I shoot and kill one of your family member for perpetrating at least TWO deliberate crimes against me, you and your family will hunt me down and kill me for that?

Bring a lunch. A damned big one.

Would it be OK to kill a teenager siphoning gas from your car late at night? If you say yes, would it be OK if I killed your kid for siphoning my gas? I thought society had evolved a little more than that.
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At today's gas prices. . . .

I guess I'm just of a different generation and geography. I grew up during a time in which you were accountable for your deeds as well as your crimes. I grew up in a region of the country (west Texas) where it was widely accepted as gospel that if you screwed up and vandalized your neighbor's property or stole from him or otherwise did him wrong, you PRAYED that the law would catch you before your neighbor did.

Know what else? We didn't have any crime where and while I was growing up. Wasn't until I moved to a city and met my first bleeding heart liberals that I saw why there was a crime problem.

If a criminal places no value on me, my work and accomplishments and figures he can just steal what he wants, why should I place any value on his life?

Jeff
 
Slavery as it relates to copper theft--interesting perspective.

I never considered myself soft on criminals, but I totally disagree with killing someone who is stealing an inanimate object--I think there is something inherently wrong with that. Quite frankly, if I had a family member killed over such a thing, the shooter would meet the same fate at the hands of my family. If a criminal intends to harm someone, that is a different story. In the case of thefts, though, where do we draw the line? Would it be OK to kill a teenager siphoning gas from your car late at night? If you say yes, would it be OK if I killed your kid for siphoning my gas? I thought society had evolved a little more than that.
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With the price of gas going up at such a fast rate you might wanna teach your kid to keep his hose outta everyone else's tank! (and that is a lesson that has multiple applications);)
 
Quite frankly, if I had a family member killed over such a thing, the shooter would meet the same fate at the hands of my family.
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That’s the main problem in the Middle East. Many people there don’t respect the law either. I obey a lot of laws that I don’t like because I am a law abiding citizen. If I knew one of my family members was a thief, I would inform him/her that one of us was going to contact the victim and try to make it right and it would be better for him/her to do it. The family member might end up in jail and blame me for it, but that is better than ending up dead. It is much better than endless blood feuds, which is what you’re talking about.
 
I think I would have a hard time sleeping at night if I'd been the shooter. Then again, I've never had to shoot some one in copper-defense so I can't be sure how I'd feel afterward.
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Copper stealing is reaching epidemic proportions in this area. I heard one business owner state that repairing his unit cost him $6,000, and he was only hit once.

This business was hit 3 times. That level of expense can drive a small business into bankruptcy, robbing the owner and any employees of their income.

I'm not big on shooting to protect property, but even if that's what this one comes down to I believe it was the responsible thing to do in this case.

To paraphrase an old saying (and with apologies to the Marquis of Halifax), Men are not shot for stealing copper, but that copper may not be stolen.
 
A lot of people seem to place a value on a thief's life that's on the + side of zero...exactly why this discussion is going on. Good grief trolls, you feel bad for the cute little squirrel you ran over...not the criminal breathing your air and taking your livelihood.
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Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness...

unless you're after my copper?





I'm going to go find a bridge to hide under and cook up my flat squirrel.
 
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