Gauges Aren’t Barrels—A Saga of Four Barrels, One Gauge, and One 45 ACP Round

[CQB45ACP]

Hope I can pull this off with a telephone.

Picture one shows cast of characters:
•LE Wilson pistol gauge
•45ACP cartridge with an Acme 230gr coated RN sized to .452” and a COL of 1.260”
•Four barrels—Wilson Combat, Baer, Alchemy, and Brown

Picture two: Cartridge fitting nicely in gauge

Picture three: Cartridge in Wilson Combat barrel. I’d say it fits.

Picture four: Cartridge not quite fitting Les Baer barrel

Picture five: Cartridge fitting Alchemy barrel.

Picture six: Cartridge not fitting Brown barrel.
Also in picture one is a cartridge built to same specs as Acme but with a .452” Extreme bullet. It fits easily into all barrels.

Also, sized empty cases of all lengths fit easily into all barrels.

Acme bullet has been run through Lee .452” sizer to ensure size and shape (what term do I want here? Concentricity?)

 

[koz4guns]

Is this just a show and tell or are you wondering why?

Shape of the ACME bullet probably is hitting the rifling on the Brown and Les Baer barrels and will need to be seated deeper.

 

[lordpaxman]

I thought the LE Wilson was a case gauge? That’s why we do the plunk test for COL. You may just be a tad long for the barrels it doesn’t fit in.

 

[CQB45ACP]

Is this just a show and tell or are you wondering why?

Shape of the ACME bullet probably is hitting the rifling on the Brown and Les Baer barrels and will need to be seated deeper.

Mostly show and tell but excellent guess anyway. Here’s picture at 1.245” COL which is way shorter than my 14 magazines will reliably function in each pistol yet still too long.

 

[CQB45ACP]

I thought the LE Wilson was a case gauge? That’s why we do the plunk test for COL. You may just be a tad long for the barrels it doesn’t fit in.

Some of their gauges may be but not this one:
And as for length—note Extreme bullet (and Berry’s btw) fit nicely at 1.260” and beyond

 

[GBExpat]

Is this just a show and tell or are you wondering why?

My initial Take was that he is showcasing the fact that passing the PlunkTest in one chamber (or gauge) does not guarantee a universal-fit cartridge.

Enlightening! Thanks for taking the time to put that together for us, CQB45ACP!

 

[CQB45ACP]

And, this is a couple year old problem (see earlier thread on “related thread list” if you’re interested).

I’ve resurrected it for a couple reasons.

First, it’s the first time I’ve had all four of my pistols disassembled at the same time so testing & picture taking was possible.

Second, from time to time this bothers me to the point I say to myself “are you sure you’ve tried everything?” And off I go down the rat hole but this time it’s different…I’ve bought a Lee .451” bullet sizing die and will run some Acmes through it to see what happens. The Acme folks confirmed it’s okay.

 

[CQB45ACP]

My initial Take was that he is showcasing the fact that passing the PlunkTest in one chamber (or gauge) does not guarantee a universal-fit cartridge.

Enlightening! Thanks for taking the time to put that together for us, CQB45ACP!

Yes it’s cost me big time in terms of time and effort.

Edit: I meant the issue, not today’s test. I’ve learned so much here on THR I thought others might learn from this and avoid my mistakes.

 

[GBExpat]

Ouch! <chuckle>

 

[Carl N. Brown]

My take away.
Gauges are not barrels.
Gauges are like a chamber with a short smoothbore barrel and no rifling (but with a stop for maximum overall length).
Pistol barrels have Rifling and Leade (Throat) between the barrel chamber and rifling.
Leade (throat) may vary between barrel manufacturers
A loaded round may pass the gauge test and fail the barrel "plunk" test because of bullet nose shape (ogive).
Confirms my practice of "plunk" testing my all reloads in the barrel of my pistol after loading.

 

[CQB45ACP]

My take away.
Gauges are not barrels.
Gauges are like a chamber with a short smoothbore barrel and no rifling.
Pistol barrels have Rifling and Leade (Throat) between the barrel chamber and rifling.
Leade (throat) may vary between barrel manufacturers
A loaded round may pass the gauge test and fail the "plunk" test bcause of bullet nose shape (ogive).
Confirms my practice of "plunk" testing my all reloads in the barrel of my pistol after loading.

Sure NOW you tell me

Test in ALL barrels you may use is what I learned.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

 

[lordpaxman]

And as for length—note Extreme bullet (and Berry’s btw) fit nicely at 1.260” and beyond

I would expect they’d fit up to the SAAMI spec length. But the bullet profile isn’t checked other than diameter.
At least with all your barrels out of the guns, everything can get a good cleaning! I cringe every time I look at a new bullet.

 

[JHTexas]

I’m not sure you want to do this but I took a couple of my 45 acp barrels and increased the throat depth with a throating reamer.
Sending it to Les Baer would be the easiest.
I did it so I could used the same COAL on all of the 1911 pistols without the concerns of jamming a round into the lands.

What surprised me the most was the Wilson Combat had the longest leade of all my 1911 pistols.

The LE Wilson gages are misleading when it comes to COAL.

 

[CQB45ACP]

I’m not sure you want to do this but I took a couple of my 45 acp barrels and increased the throat depth with a throating reamer.
Sending it to Les Baer would be the easiest.
I did it so I could used the same COAL on all of the 1911 pistols without the concerns of jamming a round into the lands.

What surprised me the most was the Wilson Combat had the longest leade of all my 1911 pistols.

The LE Wilson gages are misleading when it comes to COAL.

Probably not in the cards and sounds expensive for just one bullet brand. But I never say never.

 

[JHTexas]

Probably not in the cards and sounds expensive for just one bullet brand. But I never say never.

I purchased the throating reamer from Brownells for around $65.00.
It takes about and hour to do and requires a tap wrench, cutting oil, and a light touch.
The light amount of pressure you use when rotating the reamer helps insure your lands are all even.
The only other advice I would give to anyone that's doing this for the first time is to check your progress often, because you can't put it back.

I use a lot of SWC loads and that's where I decided to make an adjustment. The rounds needed a longer COAL to feed reliably and that led to throating a couple of barrels deeper.

 

[CQB45ACP]

I purchased the throating reamer from Brownells for around $65.00.
It takes about and hour to do and requires a tap wrench, cutting oil, and a light touch.
The light amount of pressure you use when rotating the reamer helps insure your lands are all even.
The only other advice I would give to anyone that's doing this for the first time is to check your progress often, because you can't put it back.

I use a lot of SWC loads and that's where I decided to make an adjustment. The rounds needed a longer COAL to feed reliably and that led to throating a couple of barrels deeper.

I have the tools (my grandfather was an instrument maker) but not the experience nor nerve.

 

[JHTexas]

I'm just posting this for reference. It can help us see how the reamer forms the barrel throat.

 

[GBExpat]

Edit: I meant the issue, not today’s test. I’ve learned so much here on THR I thought others might learn from this and avoid my mistakes

 

[Yankee1986]

I have the tools (my grandfather was an instrument maker) but not the experience nor nerve.

I get nervous just taking my Baer down for cleaning, let alone reaming the chamber.

 

[CQB45ACP]

I get nervous just taking my Baer down for cleaning, let alone reaming the chamber.

You bet! When it was new it was so tight I had to use a mallet.

 

[AJC1]

Interesting how every one has a different interpretation. I was over here taking away the universal ammunition was the hardest to make, and that to be universal you had to be the shortest and smallest, a condition you state is a problem for function on the other three.... I build both universal and single gun ammunition. The 170 swc (the bullet) is the reason. Do you load separately for that pistol????

 

[CQB45ACP]

Interesting how every one has a different interpretation. I was over here taking away the universal ammunition was the hardest to make, and that to be universal you had to be the shortest and smallest, a condition you state is a problem for function on the other three.... I build both universal and single gun ammunition. The 170 swc (the bullet) is the reason. Do you load separately for that pistol????

No I don’t even shoot it—700 total rounds and the one I do shoot (Alchemy) I want to give it a rest.

I’m wagering with myself resizing the Acmes down to .451” will solve my problem and then I’ll shoot them in my Baer workhorse (over 10K rounds).

 

[koz4guns]

What are you crimping to and have you try a tighter crimp?

 

[CQB45ACP]

What are you crimping to and have you try a tighter crimp?

I don’t crimp nor flare but I do chamfer each case so I don’t scrape up the Acmes.

But since I no longer load them nor use them, I don’t plan to do anything else on that front.

I went through all this a few years ago and came to end point I begin at today—that is, tomorrow the Lee .451” bullet sizer arrives and I’ll resize a couple bullets and load them to 1.260”. If they work I’ll resize them all. If not, they’ll accumulate dust until the rapture.