Glock 23 jams only w/ tactical light attached?

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mavarch

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Was just practicing with my brand new Glock 23 with the tactical light attached for the first time. It jams with a round nose-down in the magazine about 8 out of 10 shots using three different brands of 180gr FMJ ammo (Winchester, Remington, and Federal). The glock tactical light came with the gun.

Without the light attached, it shoots 100%. With light attached, it jams 80% of the time?

Can anyone offer any advice? I'm not limp wristing. It happens with three diff. brands of ammo. Full mag/half empty, etc?
 
From what I understand tactical lights do reduce reliability on Glocks. I much prefer night sights myself.

Seems like a tactical light would be a good aiming point for a BG in the dark.
 
I've been researching this a bit myself...I haven't had the problem yet, and plenty of people do not have it, so I'm not sure if I understand it myself. I imagine that since they come with a rail and Glock even makes their own light for the pistols, yours should be fine with the light like most others.

From a strictly physical standpoint, though, I think I could see how adding a light might change the physical properties of the recoiling action of your pistol and make it less reliable by changing the force of recoil that the gun experiences after firing. Perhaps, due to the added mass of the light on the front end of the pistol, the recoil that leads to the feeding action inside the gun/slide is less severe and therefore there is not the amount of force that the designer intended acting on the whole system and in turn, feeding problems/extracting problems/ejecting problems may result.

I am no physicist, and I have never mounted a light on my Glock (due to funds, I do plan to when they allow). I have researched this more or less by mistake because of some mods I have planned/plan to do to my 1911 including a possible rail under the dustcover for a light and a possible slice of picatinny on top for a red dot/c-more type sight. I know from that that changing the mass of the slide can induce feeding problems if it is not done carefully and correctly, and even still it can happen.

This is no definite explanation for what is going on with your pistol...it may have absolutely nothing to do with this. I ask most of my Glock questions on Glocktalk, because they have some really dedicated Glock guys over there who can tell you pretty much anything you can think of regarding a Glock, and may be able to help you alot. Many members are members here as well, but you may have more luck troubleshooting a Glock over there because it is so Glock-specific.

Hope I helped in some way, and good luck getting it to run properly with the light!


Edit: I forgot to add that in all likelihood this can be remedied by a spring change or something along those lines, but to be honest all my guns are running on their factory springs so far and I have not yet had a need to change any, so I am rather green in this area. Perhaps someone here or over at GT might be able to help more in depth in that regard.
 
I was able to find several mentions of this with Glocks in .40S&W.

The most informative (but I can't vouch for correctness) I found was here, by someone claiming to be a Glock armorer.

Interesting phenominon, but no one I can find is reporting 80% FTFs as you had.
 
Go look at the 10-8 forum and you will find a long discussion of these issues. Some departments have dropped the Glocks due to this problem.
 
Could it be that the added weight causes the dust cover to sag just enough to bind up the slide? Just guessing, I have no idea.

Jason
 
I've put probably 200 rds through it without the light, and it functioned flawlessly. As soon as I put the light on, first chambered round fired, then slide sticks open with a round nose-down. You just have to pull the slide back and that nose-down round feeds normally. It just keeps jamming the same way for probably 8 out of 10 shots.

Take the light off and it again works flawlessly. So I can say with pretty good certaintly that the light is changing something.

Two different magazines came with the gun. One has a "6" stamped on the follower and the other an "8". It's the same with both magazines.

What I would like to know is, why is the jammed round always nose-down? They sit nose-up normally and slide out of the mag nose up? It's as if something is pushing that round nose down?

I don't know. The simple solution is to just take the light off. Since this gun is going to only be used for home defense, though, I love the idea of having a light right on the gun. And I paid an extra $30 for the light. Plus, Glock is selling an item that doesn't work right.

Thanks for the advice so far. I'll try a few more rounds through it and check for some info at some of the above links, if nothing improves, it's going back to glock.
 
When this happens, does the slide go into battery or not? I guess what I'm trying to ask is if the slide rides over the top of the stuck round, or if the round gets caught up and stops the slide.

Jason
 
The light affects frame rigidity, causing the slide to cycle too quickly for the magazine. Try extra-power magazine springs, such as those from Wolff. This is a common problem for all railed .40 GLOCKs.
 
"When this happens, does the slide go into battery or not? I guess what I'm trying to ask is if the slide rides over the top of the stuck round, or if the round gets caught up and stops the slide."

Nope, the slide doesn't go into battery, the just-fired round is ejected normally, but the top round in the magazine gets caught up nose-down and stops the forward movement of the slide.

That's what I don't get. If the top round is jammed in the magazine nose down, that means some force is causing all the rounds in the magazine to be positioned nose down? Right? They sit parallel and touching each other don't they? Then when I pull back the slide, all the rounds (or at least the top visible round) snaps nose up and feeds normally.
 
"When this happens, does the slide go into battery or not? I guess what I'm trying to ask is if the slide rides over the top of the stuck round, or if the round gets caught up and stops the slide."

Nope, the slide doesn't go into battery, the just-fired round is ejected normally, but the top round in the magazine gets caught up nose-down and stops the forward movement of the slide.

That's what I don't get. If the top round is jammed in the magazine nose down, that means some force is causing all the rounds in the magazine to be positioned nose down? Right? They sit parallel and touching each other don't they? Then when I pull back the slide, all the rounds (or at least the top visible round) snaps nose up and feeds normally.
 
"When this happens, does the slide go into battery or not? I guess what I'm trying to ask is if the slide rides over the top of the stuck round, or if the round gets caught up and stops the slide."

Nope, the slide doesn't go into battery, the just-fired round is ejected normally, but the top round in the magazine gets caught up nose-down and stops the forward movement of the slide.

That's what I don't get. If the top round is jammed in the magazine nose down, that means some force is causing all the rounds in the magazine to be positioned nose down? Right? They sit parallel and touching each other don't they? Then when I pull back the slide, all the rounds (or at least the top visible round) snaps nose up and feeds normally.
 
"When this happens, does the slide go into battery or not? I guess what I'm trying to ask is if the slide rides over the top of the stuck round, or if the round gets caught up and stops the slide."

Nope, the just fired round ejects normally, but the top round in the magazine gets stuck nose down and prevents the slide from moving forward. All you have to do is pull back the slide to allow the top round to snap nose up and it will feed normally.

What I don't understand is how do the rounds in the magazine get nose down in the first place? Don't they normally sit angled up?
 
"When this happens, does the slide go into battery or not? I guess what I'm trying to ask is if the slide rides over the top of the stuck round, or if the round gets caught up and stops the slide."

Nope, the fired round ejects normally, the slide comes back but is prevented from returning to battery by the top round in the magazine that is stuck nose down while still in the magazine. You just have to pull the slide back a little bit to allow the stuck round to snap nose-up and feed normally.
 
Uh oh, Uh oh, Uh oh, multiple multiple multiple replies replies replies :D
 
I remember in a Glock armorer's class where one of the fellows reported he was experiencing some repeated functioning issues when using a tac light on his G23. He was told to try different weight ammunition and see how it worked ...

I was speaking to a couple of fellows connected to another agency which had adopted G22's within the last few years. Their folks have been experiencing functioning issues when tac lights are installed on the guns. They were sent some new magazine springs and told to use them ...

Now, while the G22's locking block was redesigned in 2002 (the parts list I have at hand lists the locking block revision as being mid-2002), the same list shows only one locking block for the G23. I haven't received a newer list yet, though.

Granted, the pistol maker can't control the shooter & ammunition-related influences once the gun leaves the factory ... grip technique, maintenance (cleaning & lubrication practices, replacement of recoil & mag springs, etc), ammunition being used and the environmental conditions in which the guns are used.

Glock has been revising their .40 followers, too. When asked, folks from Glock often comment that this is to try and address functioning issues seemingly being reported by their LE customers when various .40 S&W loads are being used (bullet design & weight, power levels, etc.). Now, let's consider adding the use of tac lights to the mix.

Bottom line? A combination of gun, ammunition, maintenance practices, environmental circumstances and additional equipment (light) attached to the gun might consistently work well in one shooter's hands, but maybe not in another shooter's hands ...

When the issues was first reported by a federal agency using G22's, Glock determined it was caused by the expected frame flexion being affected by attaching a light to the frame. The 11-coil mag spring was created to replace the existing 10-coil mag spring in that model .40 pistol. The heavier spring was better able to provide the upward lift necessary to keep up with the increased slide velocities being encountered (feeding 'timing') when the frame wasn't able to flex to the anticipated degree. That's what we were told in an armorer's class, anyway.

Later on a different locking block was designed for the G22 (and related models using the same frame), FWIW.

If I knew someone who was going to use a tac light on a plastic framed pistol, I'd strongly recommend that they test-fire the combination of gun, ammunition and affixed light before deciding to use it for dedicated defensive purpose.

If a functioning issue arose I'd try and help them determine whether it could be addressed and resolved with the use of a different brand/bullet weight of defensive ammunition or by an adjustment to their shooting grip technique.

If there was an actual problem with the gun I'd either attempt to correct it with new parts, bringing it within normal spec as recommended, or have it returned to Glock for a more detailed examination if it seemed as though it required more than a simple repair.

Just my thoughts ...
 
You have answered your question. the pistol was designed to function as it comes from the box. I am no physists, I cannot even spell the word, but the added weight does not work. Get night sights I prefer Truglo.
 
Interesting, I just got a light for my G23 but I haven't had a chance to shoot it yet..... I'll have to get out sometime this week and see what happens.
 
A number of LE departments have had this trouble with newer Glock 40SW models and lights. Glock has been going nuts trying to solve this problem. Some of the LE departments have gone to 9MM Glocks which don't seem to have this problem.

The last I heard Glock determined the added weight of the light at the front of the gun increased slide velocity and the slide was outrunning the mag. If you add weight to the front of the frame it reduces muzzle rise and more of the recoil energy is directed backwards. The bullet noses down because it is not all the way to the top of the mag when the slide tries to pick it up.

I suggest you try Wolff +10% mag springs. I have used them since about 1994 in all of my Glocks. I have always felt that the stock Glock mag springs were weak and they definitely take more of a set over time than the Wolff springs.

If it is any comfort, at last report there was still not a reliable solution for the problem.
 
have you overtightend the mounts enough to distort the gun? try loosening the mounts, the just snugging them down, with just two fingers, not your whole fist. overtightening causes a lot of problems, not just on guns.
 
*
Sorry for the 9mm reference. I was thinking of the NYPD's similar problem
 
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Well, thanks for everyone's advice. I took the gun back to the dealer yesterday who gave me many of the same suggestions that you all did. Told him that I didn't think you should have to experiment with different loads/bullet weights, aftermarket magazines, etc to try to make something that you should be able to trust your life to to function properly. I still think that something as expensive and important as a self defense firearm should shoot any modern manufactured quality bullet/powder combo flawlessly -- especially when equipped with a light that is manufactured by the company for use on the company's guns. Even if glock would have done something to supposedly fix the problem, or even given me a whole new gun, I don't think that I could truly trust it ever again. So...

...I traded it in on a Sig P239. Lost money on the deal, but what are you gonna do? I don't know if he's gonna send it in to glock or try to sell it to another sucker like me. All I know is that glock's probably too busy making money off of their gun/light combo right now to address this significant problem in a way that might cast dought on their "perfection" marketing campaign. Because like some of you mentioned above, and from what I've found through internet searches, I'm not the only one this has happened to. I'm not going to start running around bashing glock, but when asked, I'm sure as hell gonna be honest about my experience.
 
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