Glock G-19 or CZ 75B?

[AKElroy]

I like the CZ better, it is just more interesting & fun to shoot IMO. That said the 19 is lighter & will carry better. That, and Glocks are already ugly as a mud fence, and carry guns are going to get beat up. I can handle that on a Glock, not so much my CZ.

 

[armoredman]

Ninjafeint, the Phillipene National Police force just contracted to buy P07s. The Czech army had some glocks, but contracted to buy new CZ SP01 Phantoms, however, since that IS thier national brand, I'd have to be fair and discount that one.
Glock doesn't rule the world, Reaper, and yes, they do deeply discount thier firearms to sell them, plus taking absolutely anything in trade in. My Dept traded in a bunch of nice Ruger revolvers to Glock when we went to the 17 and 19. I guess I am not a "serious Gunman", since I EDC a CZ P01, sometimes the CZ PCR, and occaisionally, (horror of horrors!!!) a Taurus Ultralite CIA .38Spl. snubby. Oh well.

 

[REAPER4206969]

Glock doesn't rule the world, Reaper,

Not the whole world, just the handgun part.

and yes, they do deeply discount thier firearms to sell them, plus taking absolutely anything in trade in.

That is standard business practice in the firearms industry. S&W does it, Beretta does it, SIG does it, Etc.

I guess I am not a "serious Gunman", since I EDC a CZ P01, sometimes the CZ PCR

Do you even read my posts? Are you suggesting that a P-01 or PCR does not qualify as a "service grade pistol?" I even recommended the damn things!

 

[Balistic]

CZ - Gets top marks, but unless you were in a combat situation, you would not like to carry it around all day!

 

[armoredman]

Why not, Balistic, I do? I also did with a full size steel framed clone, an EAA Witness, for 13 years, no issues. The weight can be balanced by spare mags on opposite side, especially if in a shoulder rig - I used a Galco Miami Classic for my Witness for some time, before I realized shoulder rigs are a pain all by themselves. IWB works well, and OWB with the right covering garment. Still have the Galco Hi-Jak pancake rig for full size CZ that I carried my Witness in, even though the gun is long gone. I wish I could lose a few extra pounds, might make the guns feel even lighter.
Reaper, I was commenting specifically on your gunman thought, no worries. The P01 and PCR are definately service grade, I agree, both being used by police agencies, a few here in the US as well. I renew my request to my Dept to open trials for new handguns every year, as our Glocks fall apart. No, no slam on Glock, these pistols are just beaten to death, and any firearm would do the same. When the economy improves, hopefully she wil alow more manufacturers to submit, and I would love to see us adopt the new czoice of the Czech Army, the SP01 Phantom. Until then, I will carry what I am issued.

 

[dogtown tom]

Name any other agency and I'll name another that doesn't carry the Glock.

REAPER4206969 Are you seriously suggesting that no other agency uses the Glock? 65% of US law enforcement use Glock. It is not possible to list all the users (and that's just in the US.)

That isn't what I suggested. You name dropped the FBI as a Glock user, I can counter with the US Secret Service which does not. You can name X as Glock carriers, I can name Y who doesn't. It proves what? That budgets rule the procurement of leo firearms? That Glock must be better because the cops carry it? Please. While the rank and file may offer some input on department purchases, the final approval will be by someone who doesn't carry a gun every day. It must be painful to know that with all it's perfection Glock isn't carried by 100% of US law enforcement. It would seem to be a no brainer.

Suitability for concealed carry rarely impresses the guy in charge of procurement. He wants cheap.

REAPER4206969 The Glock is no cheaper than its direct competitors.

Glock is famous for almost giving away pistols to police departments- sometimes taking the used PD handguns as 1:1 trade ins with little $$$ actually being spent. And I know other manufacturers do so as well. But some purposely do not.

If they are "undercover" police how do you know what they carry?

REAPER4206969 It's not hard to find out what agencies issue. Google it.

You made the claim, YOU get to do the research to back it up. BTW, undercover officers carrying department issued firearms kinda lets the BG's know what's up. Plainclothes officers are a different story.

I would argue that many more "private citizen CCW's" carry something which IS NOT a Glock.

REAPER4206969 The Glock models 23/22/19/17 (in that order) are the best selling handguns in the country.

Eh...maybe, since Glock offers little or no options other than nightsights or RTF and still calls them by their model number. If you count all twenty odd versions of the Sig226 as one model you'll get different numbers.
As far as best selling DESIGNS......Colt, Kimber, Springfield, Wilson, Taurus and a dozen others make 1911's. And their production and sales ain't too shabby. It is also telling that the 1911 design has that many copycats.

REAPER4206969 Post a poll and you will see most even here carry a Glock.

No need. Heck, the number of forum members recommending any CZ over the G19 is proof enough that the Glock isn't quite the manna from heaven you believe it to be. How did mankind survive the preGlock era? I managed to make it to age 52 before I took a sip of your Koolaid.

REAPER4206969 It's a Glock world, learn to live in it.

Unpossible. According to CZ they rule the world. And their logic is just as cockeyed. From the CZ website:http://cz-usa.com/products/view/cz-75-sp-01/

...CZ 75 B is used by more Govern-ments, Militaries, Police and Security agencies than any other pistol in the world. The CZ 75 is quite possibly the perfect pistol...

Sound familiar?

The only way to settle this is for Latvia, Norway & Sweden (all Glockers) to gang up and declare war on the Czech Republic.

Quote:
"only 1.18"..." Wow! that's fatter than I thought!

REAPER4206969 The Glock is the most consistently thin double stack service grade pistols made. List the comparable models that are thinner.

At what point is a double stack "service grade" pistol a requirement for CCW? It's not. Double stack, triple stack whatever........it's a fat gun....compared to skinny guns like the FN/Browning Hi Power, any 1911, and a host of others.

Which makes it far easier to conceal.

REAPER4206969 But does not make it easier to fight with. That is the point of CCW, not to be comfortable (if one could even make the argument that Glock is hard or uncomfortable to carry.)

I disagree. The point of CCW is to CONCEAL. I find it no more difficult to shoot my Kahr PM9 than my G19. (and the Kahr has a better trigger)

This made me laugh out loud

REAPER4206969 List a better general purpose auto-loading pistol.

Better for what?
Sig228
Springfield XD or XDm
Kahr K9, CW9 or PM9
Beretta Cougar
Colt Commander
Colt Gov Model
Browning Hi Power (which actually DOES rule the world)
Any of the above is a fine choice for a "general purpose" pistol. But some are better choices (ie easier to conceal) than others.

It is not even close to being the CCW pistol. Even Glock recognises that.

REAPER4206969 Most disagree. Size is only one consideration of an EDC. The serious Gunman strives to all day EDC a service grade pistol, the Glock compact models (19/23/25/32) allow this to be done in almost every situation, with great concealment and reasonable comfort.

Meh. A "serious gunman"? Please.
You carry what your clothing, climate and activity will allow. August in Dallas and January in Dallas offer totally different options for firearm concealability.

Again, you ignore the Glock subcompacts. Someone HAS to be buying them. It must be those not so serious gunmen.

 

[easyg]

The waters are getting rather muddied in here.
To clear the mud a bit....

That isn't what I suggested. You name dropped the FBI as a Glock user, I can counter with the US Secret Service which does not. You can name X as Glock carriers, I can name Y who doesn't. It proves what?

I think it proves that almost every law enforcement agency in the world is getting away from carrying heavy all steel pistols (like the CZ 75B) in favor of aluminum and polymer framed pistols.

Glock is famous for almost giving away pistols to police departments- sometimes taking the used PD handguns as 1:1 trade ins with little $$$ actually being spent. And I know other manufacturers do so as well. But some purposely do not.

So what?
The business practices of Glock Inc. has nothing whatsoever to do with the actual performance of Glock pistols.
Glock pistols perform very well, and that what matters.

BTW, undercover officers carrying department issued firearms kinda lets the BG's know what's up.

Considering how popular Glocks are with the criminal element, as well as the LE element, I don't think an undercover officer is tipping his hand by carrying a Glock.
Glocks work....the police know it and the criminals know it too.

Heck, the number of forum members recommending any CZ over the G19 is proof enough that the Glock isn't quite the manna from heaven you believe it to be.

But how many recommend it as a home defense handgun or a truck gun, but not a carry gun?
And how many recommend the CZ for the price value alone?

At what point is a double stack "service grade" pistol a requirement for CCW? It's not. Double stack, triple stack whatever........it's a fat gun....compared to skinny guns like the FN/Browning Hi Power, any 1911, and a host of others.

1911 a skinny gun???
I've yet to see any 1911 that is thinner than a Glock 19.
And the Browning Hi-Power, with stock grips, is 36mm at its widest (1.42"), while the G19 is 1.18" at its widest.

So this indicates one of two things....
Either the G19 is thinner than you think it is, or the 1911 and the BHP are fatter than you think they are.
Truth be known, when it comes to double-stack 9mm pistols, there aren't many handguns thinner than a Glock.

The CZ 75B is a good pistol, just not a good all-day-long carry pistol.

 

[WarMachine]

There enough logical fallacies in this thread to fill dump truck.

Between those two, I'd choose the Glock 19 for reason of weight and simplicity. But are quality handguns that will do their part if you do yours.

 

[Zak Smith]

[1911 a skinny gun???
I've yet to see any 1911 that is thinner than a Glock 19.
And the Browning Hi-Power, with stock grips, is 36mm at its widest (1.42"), while the G19 is 1.18" at its widest.

So this indicates one of two things....
Either the G19 is thinner than you think it is, or the 1911 and the BHP are fatter than you think they are.
Truth be known, when it comes to double-stack 9mm pistols, there aren't many handguns thinner than a Glock.

"Widest point" is a red herring. Length x Width = Blocky. A pistol that is skinnier on the slide and grip but has a safety that protrudes will carry easier than one that is thinner than the safety (other than weight of course).

1911 is thinner than Glock 19

Glock vs. BHP

FWIW, I've bought and owned 4 CZ's and at least that many Glocks (and 1911's, etc). The CZ-75/85 series was a good deal at approx $350-375, but at over $500, there are better options. Build quality and reliability is not consistent: 75% of the CZs I bought had feed reliability or slide lock reliability problems from the box, which had to be repaired (by CZ-USA or another gunsmith when CZ-USA could/would not fix the problem. These pistols also would not chamber some typical commercial self-defense ammunition due to chamber dimensions. One of the four had casting defects inside the frame. The trigger group mechanics simply do not support a trigger tuned to the level of a good 1911, IE, short break, short reset, and crisp but light weight - and when that level is approached safety and reliability are compromised due to amount of sear engagement. This is due to geometry and mechanical design. Compared to a 1911, the ergonomics and ability to operate the safety is lacking.

When considered as a fighting/defense pistol, the two most important factors are: 1. reliability and 2. controls and design that support efficient and error-free running of the gun by the shooter. During high round count fighting pistol classes, those two aspects are what trip people up: the former on pistols that are not reliable and the latter generally on pistols that have controls that are problematic. On the CZ, my experience is that the reliability of the pistols out of the box is not 100% when a sample of pistols is taken (ie two of my 4 had problems).

What the Glock has going for it is consistent out of box reliability and simplicity of controls. These two put together are the qualities needed for a fighting pistol. It was the pistol that changed the paradigm of a duty or self-defense pistol-- it has all the features that are needed in a fighting pistol and pretty much nothing extraneous. This is not to say that no other pistols have followed suit and succeeded in a similar way-- to the extent they are successful it is in large part because the followed the same formula.

There is nothing really wrong with the CZ-75/85- I mean, it is what it is. But between the inherent factors (design, materials, dimensions) and the contingent factors (reliability, consistency), there are better choices for a carry/fighting pistol.

That's my opinion, and I am not a Glock fanboy. Glocks comprise probably less than a quarter of my pistols and I shoot 3-Gun and IPSC with designs other than Glock; however, most of my go-to defensive pistols are Glocks.

 

[easyg]

"Widest point" is a red herring.

Not at all.
When measuring the thickness of any weapon you have to measure it at the widest area.
Doing otherwise is just dishonest.

For example:
One can't measure only the barrel of a revolver, disregarding the cylinder, and claim that it's thinner than another handgun.

As for concealed carry....

I've never carried a BHP concealed, but I have carried a 1911 concealed and a CZ 75B concealed (at different times), and both are a PITA to carry concealed.
They're both big guns, and they're both heavy guns.
The G19 is much more carry friendly.

 

[Zak Smith]

When measuring the thickness of any weapon you have to measure it at the widest area.

It's certainly a number that can be measured; however, I do not believe in the case of a thumb safety making one wider than the other it is particularly relevant.

As far as "conceal carryability", in my experience the BHP was the easiest to carry, the 1911 Commander next, and the Glock 19 last -- not counting weight. The Glock 19 is certainly the most block of those three, however, it is probably the lightest.

If "width of widest point on pistol" is being used to predict overall carryability, then it will fail as a criteria as anyone who has CCW'd a BHP and a Glock 19 will know. The BHP is easier to carry because it has a very thin slide and a relatively narrow and short grip butt. You can't distill all carryability aspects into one number (widest width).

That said, I do carry the Glock 19 over the BHP for other reasons.

 

[Mad Chemist]

It never ceases to amaze me how some people can become so emotionally attached to a piece of equipment. Especially when we are talking about modern autoloading pistols. Come on, it's not your grandpa's case colored Colt SAA we're talking about here! These are service pistols, designed to be utilitarian. Hence, utility should be the primary concern in choosing which one works for you.

Large, heavy guns are OK if you happen to wear a soldier's or LEO's full Batman style utility belt everyday. However, for civilian CCW, weight becomes significantly more important. Weight can be overcome with high quality (read: expensive) belts and holsters. But does anyone remember the initial post where the OP stated that these two pistol options are already stretching his budget?

I'm not saying "get the Glock".
But I do think we should cut the crap and get down to brass tacks here.
What is most important for a ccw:

reliability
size
weight
manual of arms
availability of holsters and mags
spare parts


Some more minor considerations might be whether the finish holds up well to exposure to sweat and availability of accessories, night sites etc.

 

[WarMachine]

It never ceases to amaze me how some people can become so emotionally attached to a piece of equipment. Especially when we are talking about modern autoloading pistols. Come on, it's not your grandpa's case colored Colt SAA we're talking about here! These are service pistols, designed to be utilitarian. Hence, utility should be the primary concern in choosing which one works for you.

Part of the problem (at least when it comes to discussion of defensive/fighting handguns) is that many of the users spend more time talking about these guns than actually getting some real world experience, and shooting the damn things. I doubt if many shoot more 2,000 rounds a year on a given platform.

When you spend more time fondling, and looking at your handgun than shooting it, I can see how your "priorities" of what you look for in a handgun can well...shift.

 

[easyg]

As far as "conceal carryability", in my experience the BHP was the easiest to carry, the 1911 Commander next, and the Glock 19 last -- not counting weight. The Glock 19 is certainly the most block of those three, however, it is probably the lightest.

Well, I've never carried a BHP so I can't comment on what that would be like.
But I have carried a 1911 and it was a PITA.
Of course the 1911 was never intended to be a concealed carry pistol.

I spent alot of $$$ trying different belts and different holsters and different carry rigs, but it still sucked.
The 1911 is a big bulky and heavy handgun....
and for all of that you only get eight rounds.

I have also carried a CZ 75B and it was no better than the 1911 when it came to concealed carry.

I'm constantly amazed at the amount of weight and the amount of bulk some guys will suffer just to carry a particular type of handgun.

 

[Zak Smith]

My comparison was done with all Milt Sparks IWB holsters of the same or similar model on 1.75" Instructor belts and each type was carried for some time. I have also CCW'd a CZ Compact (steel) in the same setup.

 

[Full Metal Jacket]

CZ75's were the most widely used pistols in the world for decades. most accounts are now that it's glock, while some say it's neck and neck.

CZ's are still the second most copied pistols in the world behind the 1911.

CZ's are used in many european LA and military circles. they are more complex internally than glock, but they work exceptionally well.

my CZ's have never jammed, where as my glocks have. if i had to choose between the two, i would go CZ, with glock as a close second.

 

[Zak Smith]

FMJ,

Where have you found reputable statistics on "most widely used pistols" around the world?

-z

 

[Full Metal Jacket]

these are articles i have read over the years. i couldn't immediately reference one at the moment. i do know the CZ's are exceedingly popular particularly with east euro nations.

reaper4206969 would be able to reference this info a lot quicker than me. give him a minute lol

 

[REAPER4206969]

Where have you found reputable statistics on "most widely used pistols" around the world?

It is common knowledge that the Beretta 92 series, the CZ-75 series and clones and the Glock's 17/19/22/23 are the most widely used pistols in the world. Nothing else even comes close, with the possible exception of Makarovs.

 

[Zak Smith]

FYI, "it is common knowledge that..." is not a cite.

 

[REAPER4206969]

What do you consider reputable? Wikipidia lists users but it is Wiki. The fact that the Beretta 92 is used by three major western millitaries (U.S.A./Italy/France) alone makes it one of the most widely used.

 

[Zak Smith]

To support a claim of relative popularity by either total end-users or military/police, there would need to be data on the numbers of users of each. A list of countries that have used a pistol is not useful without additional data.

The original claim was that the CZ-75 was the most widely-used pistol, now followed by Glock. The follow-up claim was that the 92, CZ-75 series (and clones), and some Glocks were now the "most popular" (does that mean equally popular?), with nothing coming close.

Since those are "fact-like" statements, they can be proven or disproven with data. It is up to the person who makes a claim to back it up with data. I am certainly interested in seeing data that actually supports those statements.

 

[Fastcast]

CZ....Build quality and reliability is not consistent:

I would be interested in seeing some data that actually supports this statement.....Are we talking about .40s here or 9mm like the OP is asking about? The .40s have supposedly been a bit more problematic out of the box for CZ but .40 has been a little inconsistent for Glock too. KABOOM LOL

There is nothing really wrong with the Hi-Point - I mean, it is what it is. But between the inherent factors (design, materials, dimensions) and the contingent factors (reliability, consistency), there are better choices for a carry/fighting pistol.

I corrected this statement for you.....Since it seems a little "inconsistent" with the worldwide respect the CZ brand has earned.

 

[armoredman]

I find my experiance to be the exact opposite, out of the 10 CZ pistols I have owned/do own, every one of them function/ed just fine, even the one I hated to shoot, (CZ-100, bleccch!), except for the P01 with my bad first generation reloads. I have had 3 Glocks fail in my hand, magazine spontaneously release, FTF, FTE, all at range. Currently I shoot 56 rounds a year with Glock, so the failure percentage is pretty darn high, BUT, in all fairness, our guns get beat up regularly, and our armorers don't care. Also had a Glock 17 break its slide on my at the range I worked at years ago.
The weight issue is almost funny, considering how many of us could lose a few POUNDS and not notice, but add a few ounces and call the doctor!
Once again, whatever the OP chooses, whatever fits his budget/lifestyle/hand/etc, go for it. Either one will serve, but definately get more training if you go with the Glock, it does not possess a positive safety. Train to keep your finger off the trigger, once you do that with the Glock all safeties are automatically disengaged, light trigger pull away from discharge, not really that good for newcomers/untrained persons.

 

[CZ75-b]

I vote for the cz