Glock G-19 or CZ 75B?

[Zak Smith]

With regard to ruffled feathers-- as far as I know boogalou didn't take what I wrote personally, so it's kind of silly for third parties to get offended on his behalf.

The point of the non-quoted part of my post (the first part) was that, in my experience: (1) people who shoot high rounds counts in structured training or competition environments tend to have a different perception of what reliability is and what level of reliability is acceptable; and (2) that they tend to have different criteria for pistol selection than many people commonly discuss in your average "What pistol should I buy?" thread. I attribute this to two factors: (a) that in structured high round-count environments, performance of gear becomes obviously clear with physical events comprising the data and (b) that when out to "win" (either "on the job" or winning at competition), people choose the tools that help them win by using a form of "evolution" in which gear that is a liability is discarded and gear that provides advantages is promoted.

This doesn't mean that anyone who doesn't shoot XYZ is a novice or an idiot. But on the other hand, if the pistols used in high round count competition and training are more uniform (ie, like the majority of them use brands A, B, or C), then I think that's a clue to some good reasons for it and it would be sort of naive to ignore that information.

 

[Straight Shooter]

In amateur competition, it has been my experience that people of a same team or of a same league tend to buy the same equipment. More out of peer pressure than anything else.

At the professional level, sponsors and endorsements have more to do with equipment selection than anything else.

For self defense, as was the OP, one should choose whatever gun suits them best regardless of what everyone else is using.

 

[tipoc]

I've found both guns to be exceptionally reliable with a wide variety of ammo.

They are, however, very different guns as others have pointed out. The operating system is quite different and it makes some sense to me to take a look at that as a factor in which the OP may prefer.

The 75B was designed as a duty sized gun and is less concealable, for many, than the G19.

tipoc

 

[Zak Smith]

[In amateur competition, it has been my experience that people of a same team or of a same league tend to buy the same equipment. More out of peer pressure than anything else.

At the professional level, sponsors and endorsements have more to do with equipment selection than anything else.

These two statements put together presents a false dichotomy: that there is a clear line between amateur and professional competition shooting and that the equipment used in both categories follows that set pattern. If we take USPSA/IPSC and 3Gun as a broad example of practical shooting, there are extremely few shooters who are paid full-time to shoot on big-name shooting teams like Glock, S&W, etc, and these people do shoot the gun their sponsor makes. Based on shooting 3-Gun nationals in Raton since 2003 and reading USPSA's "Front Site" magazine for insight into national-level USPSA, I would estimate that approximately a dozen shooters are in this category, in the U.S (for 3Gun/USPSA anyway.)

Everyone else shoots what they think will give them the best chance at winning in their division (given their budget etc) -- if they care about winning. It's not uncommon for some shooters at local matches to not really care about winning; however, at regional or national-level matches, they've spent money to go and they're generally shooting for prizes and glory.

The reality is that there is a fraction of shooters at a national-level match that have some relationship a company, but the level of support is pretty low: maybe discounted or comped parts, maybe a free match entry, etc, and that this does not significantly effect firearm choice. I have been a "sponsored shooter" at matches since 2005. It usually gives me a free entry to the match. I shoot the guns I've determined will give me the best advantage within the rules.

one should choose whatever gun suits them best regardless of what everyone else is using.

While a certain independence is valuable, the sentiment in this statement that I disagree with is that defensive pistol choice is primarily subjective-- it's not. The things a fighting pistol has to do well are more or less identical from person to person: they have to run reliably and have controls that support efficient/reliable operation by the user. Some pistols on the market are simply better defensive/fighting pistols than others.

 

[Straight Shooter]

The things a fighting pistol has to do well are more or less identical from person to person: they have to run reliably and have controls that support efficient/reliable operation by the user. Some pistols on the market are simply better defensive/fighting pistols than others.

I agree with your description of a good defensive/fighting pistol. My point is that there are many that fit this description, of different platforms. IMO both the Glock and the CZ fit the description of a good fighting pistol.

But as you stated:

... and have controls that support efficient/reliable operation by the user ...

(emphasis added)
This is subjective. Some people can not stand any safeties, some carry a DA (as in heavy trigger) pistol with full confidence.

While a certain independence is valuable, the sentiment in this statement that I disagree with is that defensive pistol choice is primarily subjective-- it's not.

Not primarily, but once you narrow the decision down to good defensive/fighting pistols, as the OP has IMO, it does become subjective. The Glock and the CZ, although both IMO very good defensive pistols, are different in their operation.

For the record, I don't dislike Glocks. I just think that there are other pistols that are equally as good or better. In some cases these pistols copied the design of the Glock and improved upon it. This is a natural occurrence that happens with any product.

 

[armoredman]

FWIW, my pistol wouldn't even run correctly from the start without first taking a Dremel to the slide stop and removing a sizable amount of material.

Did you contact CZ-USA about that, that should be addressed by the importer/manufacturer.
I know of a few people running CZs in competetion, and they do quite well.
As for CZs being at a level of Taurus, huduguru, that's your opinion, I find they work far better for me than Glock, and that is my experiance, which is what we all go by anyway, our individual experiances. This is why Zak doesn't like CZ and I do, opposite experiances.

The frames are cast and very porous,
the slide stop spring is a bad design that has been changed a few times with no success(resulting in slide lock with ammo in the mag), reliability doesn't
come close to a Glock much less a Sig.

CZ P01 frame is forged, not cast. I have a PCR that gets shot quite a lot as well, no issues. As I said, your experiance is yours, mine has been for Glocks have been far less reliable, and I have never had slidelock with ammo in the mag with any out of 10 CZ pistols owned. YMMV.
BTW, the entire Czech military is dumping Glock for CZ SP01 Phantoms. That's a poly frame, FYI.

 

[Zak Smith]

This is subjective. Some people can not stand any safeties, some carry a DA (as in heavy trigger) pistol with full confidence.

It's not really subjective. Other than those with disabilities, pistols are operated by human hands of the same configuration in a range of sizes. The ultimate goal of a defensive pistol is to put rounds on target as quickly and accurately as possible. There is a video on Youtube of an 11 year old girl operating a Glock 19 in a Tactical Response Fighting Pistol class, which should put to rest objections about hand size. Features of the pistol that support putting rounds reliably on target fast and accurately are good, and those that do nothing to help those goals detract from the design.

The two things you list are preferences that do not necessarily relate to putting rounds on target faster and more accurately.

At high round count pistol classes, it becomes clear that it takes more training to properly operate a pistol that has more controls compared to one with less. Those people who shoot Glocks or other similar designs typically can start concentrating on other aspects of training besides the mechanics of operating the pistol sooner than others who shoot pistols with more complicated manuals of arms.

 

[Straight Shooter]

The two things you list are preferences that do not necessarily relate to putting rounds on target faster and more accurately.

Ok, I'll be more specific. But at this point I think you are arguing for the sake of arguing.

The grip angle of the Glock causes some to not put rounds on target faster and more accurately, it does not bother others.

The double action (12lb) trigger of the CZ causes some to not put rounds on target faster and more accurately, it does not bother others.

This is subjective.

It's good that you are confident in your choice of SD weapon, you should be if you chose it to defend your life. But there are other guns out there that are equally as good and some are better, for others.

 

[Straight Shooter]

BTW, the entire Czech military is dumping Glock for CZ SP01 Phantoms. That's a poly frame, FYI.

They just need more training to appreciate the Glock

 

[Zak Smith]

If the sights are aligned with the target when the trigger is pressed, the difference in grip angle makes no difference. When a person has trained to the level where index shooting is a viable aiming method, they will have adapted to the grip angle. Aiming using the front sight is the most reliable method to make hits under stress.

A DA/SA design not only has more controls than a Glock-type trigger (the decocker) to manipulate during operation, but has two different "trigger pulls." There is no reason to add complexity when a Glock type trigger gets the job done with one type of trigger pull (consistency) and a simpler manual of arms.

Those reasons are specifically why I called them preferences and not things that necessarily help putting rounds on target.

 

[Straight Shooter]

When a person has trained to the level where index shooting is a viable aiming method, they will have adapted to the grip angle.

With training one will have adapted to the DA trigger as well.

A DA/SA design not only has more controls than a Glock-type trigger (the decocker) to manipulate during operation

You don't manipulate the decocker during operation (firing). You decock just prior to holstering at this point you are ready to fire.

There is no reason to add complexity when a Glock type trigger gets the job done with one type of trigger pull (consistency) and a simpler manual of arms

.
This simple, light trigger, no safety (I don't consider the trigger safety on your Glock or my XD a safety) manual of arms has resulted in many NDs. It even has a name, "Glock Leg". A concern for many and a reason people choose another platform.

There are great choices for different people. For you it's a Glock 19, for me it's a XD-45 Service, for the OP it may be a CZ of whatever flavor (although I would still recommend the P-01). Great for all of us!

 

[Philo_Beddoe]

Owned both a glock 17 and a cz 75.

The glock was a stovepiping machine, sent back to Glock, they said everything was fine. When I got it back, it was still a stovepiping machine, sold it.

Own two cz 75's, fired thousands of rounds only two failures to feed and that was because the gun was filthy from no cleaning and shooting dirty russian ammo, after I cleaned the gun it ran fine again.

Only other problems I have had with cz 75 is the trigger return spring broke, which was a $10 fix and I had to replace weak mag springs and thats it.

 

[Zak Smith]

[You don't manipulate the decocker during operation (firing). You decock just prior to holstering at this point you are ready to fire.

By operation I mean the full range of manipulations that are applied to the pistol during its use.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTr8xvkUWp4
It's a lot more than pulling the trigger at the range.

 

[Straight Shooter]

Cool video.

Please give me an example of when you would need to decock a pistol during any of those drills.

By the way during the course of the video I saw a Glock, a 1911 (which has a thumb safety), a Baretta 92 (which has decocker), a revolver (which is double action) and I think an XD (which has grip safety) but it went by kinda fast.

 

[Zak Smith]

I notice they didn't show the decock/safe portion of drills, but hey- it's a very short promo video for a DVD set and real life training. Take a 2000 round 2 day fighting pistol class and tell me how many times you have to decock/safe your DA/SA or 1911. I have witnessed shooters with those pistols having a longer learning curve in such classes. Extra operations are more things you have to do, no getting around that.

 

[Straight Shooter]

My question still stands.

Please give me an example of when you would need to decock a pistol during any of those drills in the video (you posted it), during any defensive situation, during any shooting engagement.

I'll save you the headache of trying to dodge the question again. You only need to decock when you first prepare the weapon and after you have completed shooting.

In real life you load a magazine, rack the slide, decock and go about your day. If you need your weapon it is ready to fire, just pull the trigger. Each pull of the trigger fires a round, reloads do not require decocking, clearance drills do not require decocking.

Even if under stress you forget to decock and reholster, no big deal, now you've got a Glock in your holster

 

[huduguru]

armoredman, you state the following:

"CZ P01 frame is forged, not cast. I have a PCR that gets shot quite a lot as well, no issues. As I said, your experiance is yours, mine has been for Glocks have been far less reliable, and I have never had slidelock with ammo in the mag with any out of 10 CZ pistols owned. YMMV.
BTW, the entire Czech military is dumping Glock for CZ SP01 Phantoms. That's a poly frame, FYI."


I'm aware that the P01 frame is a forging of aluminum alloy. The subject
of this thread is the CZ-75B, correct? It is, and the CZ75 does, in fact
have a cast steel frame. So does your PCR.

Also you state, the "entire" Czech military is "dumping" the Glock
for SP01's. How could this be since only the Czech special forces adopted
the G17, not the "entire' Czech military? Also they just within the last year or
so adopted the G17(in OD I might add , why would they be "dumping" it?

I would venture to say that the Czech special forces shoots thousands
more rounds a year than does the average Czech soldier. Why do you think
they selected the G17? Because their was nothing produced domestically that
could sustain that type of training. Also, the simple manual of arms and overall
ease of maintenance and ruggedness were factors.

I know your retort will be(which it always is); "Glock offers cheap weapons and parts to everyone as an incentive to buy", not the fact that it is
light years ahead of anything else...

 

[tipoc]

I found the promotional video odd. I mean no disrespect but it seemed to be a combination of a movie trailer and a promo for a video game. It did not inspire me with confidence in that particular course. I also don't see the relevance of the video to this discussion.

There is a learning curve for the manual at arms to any sidearm. It takes some time to become familiar with a new handgun. The less experienced one is, the more time it takes. Most folks who have much experience with firearms would hesitate to encourage new shooters to take a "2000 round, 2 day fighting pistol course" if they had first to learn how to handle their weapon of choice. To put it another way, if a shooter is fumbling with their weapon maybe they need more time concentrating on that set of skills before trying the jump over obstacles, fall to the ground, shoot while turning cartwheels, etc. school of "fighting guncraft".

The other thing that strikes me as odd is the "Police Dept. Administrator" school of one size fits all firearms. Or..."After rigorous scientific study the Department has decided that the Glock 22 in 40S&W is the best hand gun available to law enforcement today so you will be armed with that. The guns will carry X ammo, which is the best available to law enforcement. So you will load your weapons with that." Three years later it may be another gun and another caliber. Law enforcement at least has the justification that it saves money. But there is no reason for individuals to delude themselves with this mumbo jumbo. Law enforcement itself does not follow this much anymore either. A good many individual cops out this way still carry their second or third gen S&W autos right next to their comrades armed with Glocks or Sigs and the occasional Berretta 92.

tipoc

 

[huduguru]

Straight Shooter, if you don't decock a Beretta or CZ before putting it in your
holster you are likely to blow a 9mm sized hole in your thigh(or the floor hopefully).
Especially if your adrenaline is pumping and you get it caught in a holster latch(strap) since you are used to holstering a "decocked" weapon. You SHOULD ALWAYS decock a DA/SA auto loader before holstering. In the above posted video it doesn't show it but you can
bet if you were in training with them that would be part of the training.
A CZ or Beretta has a considerably shorter and lighter single action pull than
the pull of a stock Glock.

Combine the stress factor of reholstering after shooting a few rounds(stopping the threat) with holstering a weapon in condition "0"(because you say you don't have to decock, only when you initially load the weapon). And you and the bad guy will
be on the ground, but you will both have been shot by your weapon.

One other consideration is the fact if you don't decock that DA/SA(and you get it in your holster without blowing your leg off), you might find
yourself having to draw your weapon again, with adrenaline pumping and you
will have that short trigger, not the DA initial pull that you have trained with. Consistency
is the key...

This is where the Glock is king, simplicity is good when you are fighting for your life.
I was an officer here in EP TX for about 2 years and things can get scary real quick,
simple is good...

 

[Zak Smith]

Straight Shooter,

I posted that video to clear up an apparent misunderstanding that you had with regard to what I meant when I said "to operate the pistol". Your statement "... during operation (firing)" implies that operation is equivalent to firing. Firing (ie pressing the trigger) is part of operating a pistol, but there is a wide range of operations that one has to apply to the pistol to use it. To make such an equivocation is like saying that motocross racing is just sitting on the bike and twisting the throttle.

The video trailer does not contain every operation one does to the pistol-- heck, I don't think it shows clearing the various malfunction types, reholstering, shooting from retention, etc, but all that is part of operating a pistol. The video does show that operating a pistol, eg in training, involves a lot more than standing at a range and firing, and nothing else.

Tipoc,

Magpul Dynamics has some of the best training today. Some of their stuff is "high speed" (and the video highlighted that), but a lot of training is doing the basics right over and over again. Their videos have very high production values, which is unusual for the gun industry. With regard to a high round-count class-- the ones that I have attended have started with the basics and were appropriate for anyone with normal, average adult coordination and strength.

 

[armoredman]

huduguru, I'll ignore the insults, and just give you the link. http://www.czub.cz/en/news/news/95-...f-the-armed-forces-of-the-czech-republic.aspx
As for the standard CZ having a cast frame, quite possible, I was reccomending a P01. Ruger has cast frames, a number of makers have cast frames, and so do Glocks...try forging plastic.

There's your proof, if you wish, if not, what ever. You like your Glocks, I don't. Have a nice day.

 

[huduguru]

armoredman, their were no insults in my post, just facts. Where
in that badly translated article does it say that the Czech special
forces are "dumping" the Glock as you clearly stated in your post? I cut and pasted it below, maybe someone else can see it.

It doesn't because they aren't, the Czech special forces are keeping the G17 because it is superior to their domestically produced weapons.

You want proof, there it is, proof of a false statement...





Česká zbrojovka a.s. and the Ministry of Defence of the Czech Republic signed on 18th March, 2010 the purchase contract for supply of 7, 800 ordnance sets designed for the Armed Force of the Czech Republic. During the years 2010 – 2013 Česká zbrojovka a.s. will supply to the Armed Forces of the Czech Republic in total 6, 687 pcs. of assault rifles designated as the CZ 805 BREN A1 chambered in 5.56 x 45 mm cal. and 1, 250 pcs. of assault rifles designated as the CZ 805 BREN A2 chambered in 5.56 x45 and made in shortened version – carbine, including accessories. The overall supply contains also the CZ 805 G1 underslung grenade launchers made in 40 x 46 mm cal., sighting systems to be used in day or night light conditions and marker devices. Deliveries of firearms will be accompanied with tool outfits for maintenance, sets of spare parts and proper ammunition. The overall volume of the contract makes CZK 1.1 billion incl. VAT.
Česká zbrojovka a.s today also signed a contract to supply 5, 570 pcs. of the CZ 75 PHANTOM semi-auto pistols in cal. 9 x 19 mm, including accessories such as tactical flashlights, sets of spare parts and tool outfits for maintenance. At the same time the contract contains a clause covering supply of 572 pcs. of fully-automatic personal defence weapons the CZ SCORPION EVO 3 A1 in 9 x 19 mm cal. (PDW category), including accessories. These weapons will be also accompanied by deliveries of tactical flashlights and sighting devices, tool outfits for maintenance, sets of spare parts and proper ammunition. The overall volume makes a sum of CZK 129.8 incl. VAT, and this contract will be performed over the period 2010 – 2011.
On behalf of Česká zbrojovka the contracts were today signed by the General Manager and the Chairman of the Board of Directors Ing. Lubomír Kovařík, who to this tender results said: “This contract has for Česká zbrojovka and its sub-contractors the utmost importance and paramount strategic character. I firmly believe that by deliveries of the new family of army weapons made by Česká zbrojovka we build on the historical successes of the legendary products made in Uherský Brod, which serve the Czech Armed Forces until today and if not for their certain obsolescence and technical aging these weapons will still have the capacity to fulfil their function. The new manufacturing program of Česká zbrojovka, designed for armed forces follows this tradition and holds a promise for the future of the Czech arms industry. Today’s success is the result of hard work of many of our company employees and I would like to use this opportunity to express my thanks to them. At the same time this success gives clear evidence that the Czech product made in high quality standard is able to compete successfully with renowned foreign manufacturers. I believe that we will achieve similar successes with weapons made by Česká zbrojovka also in tenders held in foreign countries.”

 

[CZF]

Only one of the Czech Army units use the G17.

The ACR could have choose 5,570 Glocks, but they decided to go with the
Phantoms.

Both are good guns.

 

[Straight Shooter]

if you don't decock a Beretta or CZ before putting it in your
holster you are likely to blow a 9mm sized hole in your thigh(or the floor hopefully).

I was being facetious, however I agree that this is possible, and many have done it, with a Glock.

CZ or Beretta has a considerably shorter and lighter single action pull than
the pull of a stock Glock.

I can't speak to the Baretta but the P-01 has ~5# single action trigger pull. The Glock is ~5.5-6.

If something catches the trigger of the CZ and causes it to fire, the same would cause a Glock to fire.

The difference is that if decocked, that won't happen with the CZ.

 

[huduguru]

Shooter, I think my main point was not that the triggers are different or
the same but that training for the DA/SA means you are holstering
a weapon with a long 10-15 lb. pull vs. a Glock with a 6 lb pull. If you
are trained with the Glock you take the necessary precautions, if you
holster that CZ in condition "0" you could have a major problem not
only because your are trained to holster a weapon with a long heavy DA trigger, but reholstering after a shooting means you are scared and full of adrenaline(no matter how cool you might be at the range).


The proper way to reholster a DA/SA weapon is, and always has been to decock it first. That is why police departments don't use DA/SA without decockers.


Also, if you have to pull that weapon out again after holstering(it happens)
in condition "0" you are ready for an accidental discharge. The felon's
family will love you for that...