Glock Grip Angle
- Thread starter kwelz
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And your point?
marksman13
Member
When I point a Glock without looking at the sights, I point a solid three inches higher than my point of aim with a CZ and XD. If a Glock is all you shoot, it's not a problem. If you are used to the grip angle of another firearm it may be a problem.
With the right amount of training you can become proficient enough to do the job with any pistol, but most will shoot their best with the grip angle they use most and are most comfortable with. I can shoot a Glock because I carry one at work. I can hit what I aim at, but if given my choice I would rather carry a CZ-75 because it feels better in my hand and points better.
H20_man said it best. There are some who don't like the grip angle of a 1911. It's all a matter of opinion in the end. I don't feel like Glock offers enough of an advantage over other brands to switch to them. I will continue to shoot my CZs and XDs better than my Glock, because they are the most comfortable to me and I shoot them the most. It's that simple.
And, TBO, I think his point was that your comment didn't make much sense. It doesn't matter how much a person shoots a Glock, some will like the grip angle and some will not. The Glock line isn't for everybody. I don't think anybody can nail down a "best" brand of pistol.
With the right amount of training you can become proficient enough to do the job with any pistol, but most will shoot their best with the grip angle they use most and are most comfortable with. I can shoot a Glock because I carry one at work. I can hit what I aim at, but if given my choice I would rather carry a CZ-75 because it feels better in my hand and points better.
H20_man said it best. There are some who don't like the grip angle of a 1911. It's all a matter of opinion in the end. I don't feel like Glock offers enough of an advantage over other brands to switch to them. I will continue to shoot my CZs and XDs better than my Glock, because they are the most comfortable to me and I shoot them the most. It's that simple.
And, TBO, I think his point was that your comment didn't make much sense. It doesn't matter how much a person shoots a Glock, some will like the grip angle and some will not. The Glock line isn't for everybody. I don't think anybody can nail down a "best" brand of pistol.
rbernie
Contributing Member
I have two of them sitting here, one atop the other, and there is no way for anyone to claim that their grip angle is close to the same. The frontstrap has close to ten degrees more cant, and the backstrap even more.
To claim that you have both in front of you and are unable to tell the difference strains credibility.
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For me, SIG and 1911's grip angle puts the wrist at an angle that is more neutral, therefore more comfortable.
Glock's grip puts my wrist at an angle where I have to exert force, not a lot though, downward in order to get the same aimpoint. I would not say it is a huge difference, but that can have a disadvantage:
If I have to bring the pistol closer to the eye because the situation does not allow full arm extention, I have to tilt the wrist downward to compensate for the forearm going up as the elbow bend. Glock makes my wrist angled more closer to the edge of the wrist downward motion range, limiting flexibility.
IMPORTANT:
The difference between grip of a Glock and grip of a SIG or 1911 is not just in the angle. Actually, when I compared a P226 and a Glock 22 side by side, the angle difference is not that much, probably only a few degrees. One other factor that makes the difference is the difference between elevation of the bottom of the trigger guard and the elevation of where the top of the trigger hand meets the back of the grip, the grip tang. Both SIG and Glock has the trigger and other controls aligned with the barrel, but Glock's higher grip tang elevation makes the hand point more downward, even more than the grip angle is making my wrist to point down. This makes it less ergonomic for me. My index finger rub against the trigger guard while pulling the trigger that way. When I gripped and manipulated a Glock 22 with my support hand thumb right under the grip tang to simulate a lowered grip tang elevation, my index finger no longer rubbed against the trigger guard, and it felt better even with the grip angle staying as it is.
Ultimately, difference of the grip tang elevation and the elevation of where the middle finger of the trigger hand meets the trigger guard will determine the angle of the wrist, so some people grinding the lower rear portion of the Glock's grip to change the grip angle might be wasting money.
Glock's grip puts my wrist at an angle where I have to exert force, not a lot though, downward in order to get the same aimpoint. I would not say it is a huge difference, but that can have a disadvantage:
If I have to bring the pistol closer to the eye because the situation does not allow full arm extention, I have to tilt the wrist downward to compensate for the forearm going up as the elbow bend. Glock makes my wrist angled more closer to the edge of the wrist downward motion range, limiting flexibility.
IMPORTANT:
The difference between grip of a Glock and grip of a SIG or 1911 is not just in the angle. Actually, when I compared a P226 and a Glock 22 side by side, the angle difference is not that much, probably only a few degrees. One other factor that makes the difference is the difference between elevation of the bottom of the trigger guard and the elevation of where the top of the trigger hand meets the back of the grip, the grip tang. Both SIG and Glock has the trigger and other controls aligned with the barrel, but Glock's higher grip tang elevation makes the hand point more downward, even more than the grip angle is making my wrist to point down. This makes it less ergonomic for me. My index finger rub against the trigger guard while pulling the trigger that way. When I gripped and manipulated a Glock 22 with my support hand thumb right under the grip tang to simulate a lowered grip tang elevation, my index finger no longer rubbed against the trigger guard, and it felt better even with the grip angle staying as it is.
Ultimately, difference of the grip tang elevation and the elevation of where the middle finger of the trigger hand meets the trigger guard will determine the angle of the wrist, so some people grinding the lower rear portion of the Glock's grip to change the grip angle might be wasting money.
My point? A comment like, "Everybody shoots a Glock better after good instruction" is well beyond absurd. Here are the numbers from the United States Practical Shooting Association Limited Nationals:
STI (2011, that's a wide body 1911 style frame) - 64.68%
SV (another 2011) - 16.06%
Para (yet another wide body 1911) - 8.26%
Glock - 7.34%
CZ - 1.38%
Other - 2.28%
So tell me, why are 89% of the square range practical pistol gurus blazing away with a spin off of the 1911 platform? For that matter, where on Earth are the 92.66% of non-Glock shooters going to get proper instruction?
Heck, let's look at a division where single action blasters aren't even allowed to play...Production Division. In Production the break down looks like this:
Glock - 58.49%
CZ - 13.21%
S&W - 12.26%
Springfield - 8.49%
Sig-Sauer - 2.83%
Other - 4.72%
Even though Glocks own Production Division, 41.51% of the shooters are not shooting Glocks. I wonder, where are the world class non-Glocker Grandmasters going to go for some proper instruction?
FWIW, the Glock does point higher than 1911 type frames. That's a simple matter of geometry. There are other ergonomic draw backs for some shooters, the "hump" in the back, flat grip panels, etc. The ergonomics aren't for everyone.
Glocks are great guns and they can stand on their own merits, no external controlls, great reliability, light weight (for carry), same trigger pull shot to shot, etc. There is no need to over promote one's favorite platform (be it a Glock, 1911, etc.) with Internet banter and disinformation.
I thought it easier to leave it go with...:banghead:
STI (2011, that's a wide body 1911 style frame) - 64.68%
SV (another 2011) - 16.06%
Para (yet another wide body 1911) - 8.26%
Glock - 7.34%
CZ - 1.38%
Other - 2.28%
So tell me, why are 89% of the square range practical pistol gurus blazing away with a spin off of the 1911 platform? For that matter, where on Earth are the 92.66% of non-Glock shooters going to get proper instruction?
Heck, let's look at a division where single action blasters aren't even allowed to play...Production Division. In Production the break down looks like this:
Glock - 58.49%
CZ - 13.21%
S&W - 12.26%
Springfield - 8.49%
Sig-Sauer - 2.83%
Other - 4.72%
Even though Glocks own Production Division, 41.51% of the shooters are not shooting Glocks. I wonder, where are the world class non-Glocker Grandmasters going to go for some proper instruction?
FWIW, the Glock does point higher than 1911 type frames. That's a simple matter of geometry. There are other ergonomic draw backs for some shooters, the "hump" in the back, flat grip panels, etc. The ergonomics aren't for everyone.
Glocks are great guns and they can stand on their own merits, no external controlls, great reliability, light weight (for carry), same trigger pull shot to shot, etc. There is no need to over promote one's favorite platform (be it a Glock, 1911, etc.) with Internet banter and disinformation.
I thought it easier to leave it go with...:banghead:
The grip angle on the Glock is very close to the grip angle of the Luger, Ruger 22 autos, and target 22's like the Pardini. I've found this angle an advantage shooting one handed bullseye style, I shot my best Masters scores with the Pardini even thou I liked my Model 42 better. For me, these guns point high when gripping them two handed drawing from a holster practical style.
In my experience if you've trained with a 1911 style pistol you can pick up just about any other handgun except the Luger angle guns, even revolvers, and they will point where you look without thinking about it. If I pick up one of the others I have to make a mental adjustment. The grip angle is the main reason I don't shoot Glocks.
Ross
Ok, and the staple gun trigger.
In my experience if you've trained with a 1911 style pistol you can pick up just about any other handgun except the Luger angle guns, even revolvers, and they will point where you look without thinking about it. If I pick up one of the others I have to make a mental adjustment. The grip angle is the main reason I don't shoot Glocks.
Ross
Ok, and the staple gun trigger.
DawgFvr
Member
rbernie: I'm not sure what constitutes a "stable of pistols". You insult with such a condescending tone. I do, have a few weapons ranging from revolvers, pistols, shotguns, M1 Garand, etc. I found it relatively easy moving from one weapon to another...maybe it’s just me...maybe it is was the result of 22 years of infantry training...I'm not sure...but I doubt it. Everyone can do this IMO. I can pick up any...let me say that again, any weapon and after a little bit of familiarization firing...get comfortable with it. Nice thing being a human being... I'm not so specialized that I am unable to adapt. Now...I'm sure one can develop preferences...but anybody that is unable to simply adjust to a grip angle just needs a little bit of training and mind focus. Please...no more of this grip angle drivel.
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okiewita40
Member
I'm with Dawg on this one. I was told by one of my firearms instructor that you can shoot anything that has sights on them as long as you have proper sight alignment.
Now a glock is a tuff gun. As are most all handguns. I tend to like the poly pistols and revolvers better than the 1911 type's. Just shoot what you like and let the next guy/gal do the same.
Now a glock is a tuff gun. As are most all handguns. I tend to like the poly pistols and revolvers better than the 1911 type's. Just shoot what you like and let the next guy/gal do the same.
rbernie
Contributing Member
I have been brief and factual, I have not called anyone names, and my only negative comments have been towards a post that attempted outright fabrication of data. If my calling out the BS in a thread to keep it fact-based is condescending to you, then I suppose that I am willing to wear the moniker.
Opinions are fine, and everyone gets theirs. I will never attack anyone's opinion. There is no profit in arguing opinions, and I will not do it. You have yours, I have mine, and we're all good with all that.
However, claiming that the Glock and M&P have "virtually the same" grip angle is not an opinion; it's a verifiable and demonstrable fabrication of data. That fabrication is something that should not occur without pushback. So push back I did, complete with pictures.
Do you dispute my assertion, or did you just not like my approach?
Of course we can adapt. My point is that if I have five pistols, I'd like to able to pick any of them and - first time, with no spot adjustment necessary - have the sights automatically align when I bring the pistol up. That alignment comes from muscle memory, and that muscle memory is built upon repetition. If you shoot Glocks, you will built that memory based upon how they fit your hand. If you shoot other pistols, you will build that memory likewise. If the pistols you shoot have differing grip angles, you will find the need to adjust your sight alignment to compensate each time you pick up a different pistol.
Absolutely true. The issue I was trying to address is not ABILITY to get a proper sight picture, but the RAPIDITY of being able to get a proper sight picture.
I choose to build a stable of pistols that had the same approximate grip angle. This is of value to me. It facilitates my being able to shoot these pistols without having to adapt, without having to alter my sight picture as I bring the weapon to bear. I can get off a first shot faster and more instinctively using any of my pistols because they all have the same approximate grip angle.
I value that. You may not. That's OK.
You'll notice that I offered no value judgment relative to whether I like Glocks or not. That's because I could just as easily have a safe full of Glocks and meet my goal of 'any pistol, any stance, first shot on target without ergonomic adjustment'.
My only point was that Glocks have a grip angle that is DIFFERENT than most other pistols. If you only shoot Glocks, the muscle memory for proper sight alignment becomes permanent for that grip angle. If you only shoot alternate platforms, the muscle memory for proper sight alignment becomes permanent for that grip angle. If you switch between Glocks and other platforms, the alteration must be made on the fly.
You get to decide if that bothers you. I've made that decision for myself.
marksman13
Member
Good post, Rbernie. That's pretty much what I was trying to say, but better worded. It's all about what you shoot the most and are most comfortable with. Muscle memory is a phenomenon that even the most complex creatures are vexed with. It's not a bad thing, but it is something one must understand when choosing a firearm for defensive shooting.
Oh no, not another of these threads :0
I own and actively shoot a variaty of handguns, including a glock 23 and 30. I use the 30 as my carry gun. I also own 2 modified 1911s, and a variety of revolvers. To me many different guns each feel somewhat different in how they "point". I don't find any issues with any of them in that regard, and really enjoy shooting them all. I don't really have to think about grip angle and things like that. It just seems natural to me for almost any handgun to get on target quickly. If there are any type of guns I have a little more of an issue with, it would be the really small frame, mostly small caliber handguns such as the .380 keltechs, and guns in that size or smaller.
I really don't dislike almost any of the guns I've shot as far as grip angle and putting the sights quickly on target.
I own and actively shoot a variaty of handguns, including a glock 23 and 30. I use the 30 as my carry gun. I also own 2 modified 1911s, and a variety of revolvers. To me many different guns each feel somewhat different in how they "point". I don't find any issues with any of them in that regard, and really enjoy shooting them all. I don't really have to think about grip angle and things like that. It just seems natural to me for almost any handgun to get on target quickly. If there are any type of guns I have a little more of an issue with, it would be the really small frame, mostly small caliber handguns such as the .380 keltechs, and guns in that size or smaller.
I really don't dislike almost any of the guns I've shot as far as grip angle and putting the sights quickly on target.
possum
Member
for some the glock gri angle is awful some people love it and some just deal with it. i am with the later group don't like it but i have gotte used to it and i can shoot them if i have too or want to. it is a ersonal preference. and for me the glock grip angle is way different than the 1911 and xd. and the 1911 and xd/s are much more comforatble. another issue that i have with the glocks are the gri girth, it is just to ig for me to manipulate easily as i like too, but again i can and will if i need to or have too.
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