Glock-one in chamber or not?

DO YOU KEEP A LIVE ROUND IN YOUR GLOCK FOR REGULAR CARRY?

  • ALWAYS KEEP A LIVE ROUND LOADED

    Votes: 304 83.3%
  • NEVER KEEP A LIVE ROUND LOADED

    Votes: 39 10.7%
  • Only Keep A Live Round when at home

    Votes: 3 0.8%
  • Only Keep A live round when away from home

    Votes: 19 5.2%

  • Total voters
    365
  • Poll closed .
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Ridiculous Question

I think the answer to this question is, would you carry a revolver with an empty chamber. The answer is absolutly not. A glock was designed as a "Safe Action Pistol" and designed to carry fully loaded. Unless you have a safety issue around the home (kids, etc) then this is the way to carry this weapon.

I traveled to Israel this year and trained with various members of the security services there and was astonished to learn that for the most part, Israeli military and Police carry with an empty chamber. They have to use what they call a "slingshot manuver" when they get into a gunfight to chamber a round. Not one person could explain why all but very specialized units carry their guns in this manner.

I know the answer though.. There are a lot of young "kids" carrying guns there. Everyone has an M4 slung over their shoulder, on the bus, in the mall, groups of young girls hanging around the makeup counter in olive drab uniforms with M4s and autos IWB, etc. I guess this reduces to almost zero the potential for an accidental discharge. This shouldn't be a problem though in the hands of a responsible gun owner/operator.
 
my glock 26 is always loaded and ready to go! why carry a gun and use it as a hammer? that's all you're doing when carrying it empty?
And for the 2 seconds experts out there! it takes less than 2 seconds for a BG armed with a knife to stab you from 7 yrds away!
 
It simply makes no sense to me to carry a firearm that doesn't have a round in the chamber, kind of like storing your gasoline seperate from your car and only putting it in when you need to go somewhere :).

Plus the 7 yard rule is an average, I can cover a lot more than 7 yards in 2 seconds and a lot of other people can as well, various people have proposed increasing it to the 10-12 yard rule. You also have to consider that even if you identify the target, draw, acquire the target and get good COM hits there can still be 15-30 seconds of fight in the BG.

I don't carry Glocks, but do carry my Sig P229 (decock only) and XDs with one in the chamber, if I cared for Glocks I would carry with one in the chamber.

The BG isn't going to give you a timeout to load a round. It is a big assumption to make to believe (a) that you'll have time to load a round into the chamber, (b) that you have two hands available to do that, or (c) that you'll be able to do it one handed.
 
In line with that, just briefly, I've not only participated in the Tueller Drill (with Tueller), I've put cops through it. That's the one where you start out with your duty sidearm holstered (right out in the open) and the pseudo bad guy standing at what looks like a very safe distance with a pseudo knife. When the whistle blows, the bad guy starts for you, and you try to draw your gun & stop him.
Under just the stress of training, in a sterile & non-threatening environment, I've seen veteran cops NOT be able to get their handgun out of a thumbbreak holster and on target in time to get a click off before they get pseudo stabbed.
That's standing there, knowing what was going to happen, with the gun not covered by concealing clothes, and "ready" for it.
Adding the time & memory requirements under real stress to chamber a round in an auto pistol.... :)

Denis
 
It is simply retarded to carry an empty pistol.

I used to carry a glock 27, and I sold it due to several reasons- the most significant was the heavy and long trigger pull.

I now carry a 1911 with a ~3.5lb trigger cocked and locked.
 
Well DPris all that information and your arguing makes you seem really suspect. I am a retired LEO, LAPD, Metro 114, guy. So tell me what you know about that group. :D

How many accidentals have you seen, how many doors have you been to and told someone is dead because of a mishandled handgun. Look at what happened by the guy who misfired one in front of a school class full of children LOL...You are becoming pathetic to say the least.
 
Harley,
Not quite sure what you're trying to say.
I've not called you a liar, or any other name, just disagreed with your assertions, and if you're trying to call me one, discussion is ended. :)

Denis
 
I hope I'm being eloquent enough for you.

That was much better....:)
You know, being at the range yesterday, I observed some State Police doing some drills. Mostly moving, shooting behind barriers, etc...Differences in their physical condition was very apparent...What does this have to do with anything? Just this, there is a whole chain of events beyond having an intitial rd in the chamber that leads to a successful conclusion to a street skirmish. I think you know that. I can give a long list starting with one's physical conditioning, reflexes, mind-set, etc....
PDinstructors use the "ambush" scenario as the most frequent type of confrontation, but statistical data for LEO's & civilians show otherwise.
BTW, I don't know Mr. Tueller, but someone is going to get shot if you try that with me...
Condition 1, 2,3, or whatever has to do with CHOICE, not being afraid as you put it...Labeling #3's in reality is "name-calling", a propaganda technique....Personally, you ought to be rebuked for that...:)
 
DPris, I just wanted to let you know, fear has nothing to do with it.:D There are many factors involved. Just to set it straight. I am not calling you a liar.

But I am not sure what your motives are to proclaim fear as a factor rather than good responsible training. Most civilian groups and folks are way to afraid as it is for sure. So maybe that is where you are getting this fear thing you are talking about. :confused:

As I explained the ones who are very sharp with the mental phobia's and other such stuff, will explain fear and respect, are not the same. Comes from different parts of the brain right out of the get go :)

Remember the foolish standing to the side down range, and allowing others to shoot at targets that was done (may still be done) not a good responsible way to train. But in the Corps we did a lot of live fire over your head, might explain it. For his sake it was not fear that was the factor either, he had respect for the shooter and a miss by an inch is as good as a mile (miss) he figured.

Others who were voicing their opinion were thinking he might set a bad precedence, not fear, respect for the student and responsible teaching was the factor. IMHO

Edit:
As far as those drills with a knife I played with them also. I have/had a baton on one side and pistol on the other side, the baton comes into play before the pistol, then the pistol. Milliseconds apart, (training) I used a clamshell and no one beat me...LOL I had a loaded one in the chamber also. But as a civilian who is carring for self defense, the way I do it is the best all around I figure. I have been in the minority as far as occupations, for a very long time USMC and LEO...

The " E. Love" shooting in LA was long ago and far away. Not involved. But one of my classmate buddies was. Put several into this lady and retired long after the shooting, good man, also.

The one who went off on a mental stress and retired took it really hard. Such is life.

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=6812819

Regards
 
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Mad,
I can't give you exact figures, but I'd suggest that the ambush scenario is infinitely more prevalent among "civilians", and there's good reason to use it with cops.
Police are (or should be) theoretically more attuned to the idea of violence presenting because violence is a semi-regular part of the job, either first-hand in personal arrest encounters, or second-hand in doing the mop up on calls where the complainant has been the victim of violence. Cops are trained to watch out for certain things both on approach and during contacts with the public in a number of situations. The average citizen who doesn't encounter violence in some form on a regular basis is much less likely to see the warning signs or perceive the potential for violence. It's the Cooper Color Code thing, to use a reference. Most "regular" people live much of their lives in White Mode, which is not a criticism, but merely pointing out that they are much more likely to be ambushed by carjackers, muggers, street punks, and so on. Even an elevated degree of situational awareness can't guarantee that you'll never be attacked suddenly, close in, and violently.

One of my old buddies at my last PD shortly after I retired suddenly found himself at the wrong end of a rifle in responding to a dispatched call one day. This was a veteran cop who'd started out his police career in the projects of Philadelphia before moving west to my state & getting hired on at my PD.
He was no rookie, he knew how to approach, he knew the risks involved in ANY call, no matter how innocuous it may sound up front, and in a flash there he was looking down the bore of a bolt-action rifle inside five feet. Without getting into any analysis or criticism, he did make it through the encounter, but left the PD shortly after with recurring psychological problems.

My only point there is to illustrate that ambushes are very real, and if you prepare yourself at least to some degree, mentally & physically, to address the worst you've pretty much got yourself prepared to address the least. And, again, don't forget the situations that start out with a hands-on response and then escalate. :)

Dennis Tueller is a former career cop with the Salt Lake City PD who retired as a lieutenant. For many years he was a firearms instructor both there and for Jeff Cooper at Gunsite. Since leaving SLC, Dennis has worked in contract training, and currently travels as an instructor for Glock. Dennis came up with the Tueller Drill some time ago to demonstrate the actual threat of a knife at what many people would not consider a threatening distance, and it's been a great eye-opener for most who go through it.

Ayoob produced one of his training films back in the mid 80s including the drill at a week-long session I attended here in Utah. Don't know if it's still available, but Dennis is shown on it discussing the drill, there's some footage of some of the guys going through it, and if you can scare up a copy, you can even see my back in one of the scenarios dealing with suicidal people-with-guns. :D
Dennis also used to teach classes locally here, and they were always very professionally done.

Yes, there are many factors involved in a violent encounter beyond just the loaded chamber issue. That's quite obvious. One thought to consider in saying that is the fact that you have little to no control over a number of variables when violence presents. You don't choose the time, you don't choose the place, you don't choose the direction, you don't choose the weather, you don't choose the lighting, you don't choose the number of assailants, you don't choose the speed, you don't choose the type of violence, you don't choose the other weapons involved, you don't choose the number of other people around you, you don't choose the surroundings or the type of terrain you have to work in. You do, however, have the ability to control whether your defensive tool is ready for instant action, and if you choose not to carry it so, then again it boils down to you and your choice.

If you want to wait literally until somebody's five feet away to fully arm your weapon, that's up to you.
One scenario that comes forcefully to mind is the carjacking. Do you honestly think that while sitting in the confines of your car, belted or not, you're going to be able to chamber a round before you get yourself shot?
If your response is that it'll never happen to you, then we're outside the bounds of discussion, since you could equally apply that reasoning to any other form of personal violence. :)

Worst Case Scenario is a major principle in preparing for any critical incident, and it's used every day in government, private sector business, and personal lives. The core of WCS is that if you prepare for the worst (within your abilities and with due consideration of the probabilities), then you'll be better set up to handle most events from there on down.

I'm assuming you're refering to the Tueller Drill when you say somebody would get shot if it was tried with you.
Maybe, maybe not, and while not questioning your personal abilities, remember that the Tueller Drill is conducted in a sterile environment with both sides fully aware and prepared to move.
Essentially, from 7 yards (21 feet) your attacker can have steel in your guts in less than 3 seconds (and as little as 1.5 seconds, depending on size, condition, and motivation). The drill starts with the "cop's" hands shoulder high.
Remember, this is with an exposed duty holster, not a concealed rig.
In such a scenario, you have to factor in both mental and physical reaction times. Your mind has to process the fact that you're under attack, then it has to mobilize your body to react. That can eat up 1-5 seconds right there, depending on how fast your mind processes the picture.

In real life, you're not likely to be standing there waiting for the whistle to blow. You may be in very familiar territory (which often instills a sense of "can't happen here"), doing things you've done a thousand times before with no negative results, in broad daylight, and carrying a bag, a briefcase, pushing a shopping cart, talking to your wife, on your cell phone, and so on. There are many things that cut into your reaction time, and Tueller developed his drill just to illustrate how far away a man with a knife can be a threat. It wasn't intended to specifically train for such an ocurrance, nor was it intended to set a milestone for speed in getting out of the holster.
Main point being that adding the complicating process of getting a round chambered to a violent encounter may require time (in the open) and/or freedom of movement (carjacking) that you simply won't have.

Carrying in whichever condition certainly is a matter of choice.
Previous statements still stand. :)

Denis
 
"For folks that choose to carry without one in the pipe, I hope you train to rack that slide with a single, bloody, sweaty, injured hand as well."

You are correct, sir...haha!

Boot heels, door jambs, and any solid surface with a sharp edge will work well.

That isn't the real challenge. Take your weak hand, and pull the pistol out of your strong-side holster. Now that's your challenge, and not specific to a condition three weapon.
 
One in the chamber. Carrying without the gun ready to go bang is like airport security. It would would make me "feel" safer without actually making me so. I can understand some people not being comfortable with one in the chamber of a striker fired pistol like a Glock but there are enough other excellent choices in firearms that there must be at least one style they would be comfortable with. This is really just a little mental block that is probably not much different than that little voice when you first start carrying that keeps telling you your printing when you know your not. Only in this case the little voice is telling you the gun is more dangerous. It is but the increase in usefulness more than makes up for it.

After all time and money invested in getting a permit, gun, holster, training, etc. I don't want my family and friends to remember me as the dummy who got killed because he was carrying an unloaded gun. To me that would be even worse than not having one.
 
I'm going to, for the most part ;), stay out what has turned into a childish thread. My solution was adding a safety to my G26. For those that ridicule anyone carrying Condition 3 (as I carried before adding the Cominolli), why don't you similarly ridicule people who carry on their ankle?

Condition 3 in a handy location versus Condition 1 in an ankle rig... Who gets the first shot off in most scenarios?

Everyone should carry however they like. Then they should share how they carry and why, and we'll all learn from each other. Telling anyone that the way they carry is "useless" or "retarded" is childish, and the furthest thing from what TheHighRoad is supposed to be.

For those that have been insulted - I've noticed more than once a post like: I'm almost 21 and going to get my first gun. And they are a "Senior Member" with like 1200 posts under their belt, including some vehemently held opinions about guns, and carry, etc.! There's a lot of knowledge available on these forums, but really, opinions, you have to take them with a grain of salt.
 
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