Glock's trigger safety not enough?

[ArmedBear]

What personal accusations were those, KB?

My opinions, my experiences, and the friends and relatives missing parts of their bodies have NOTHING to do with you.

My own judgment about firearms safety and the fact that relying on any one thing to keep me safe is not what I choose has nothing to do with you.

My initial post had nothing to do with you.

My opinion that the Glock was truly revolutionary, but not the last word in firearms design, has nothing to do with you.

That's what I was talking about in my response.

If someone has a rational reason why he/she believes that any additional safety features in a gun design are a BAD idea, I'm interested.

An obvious example of such a device would be the grip safety that makes it safe to twirl an XD and very easy to do a foolproof press check, but doesn't hinder someone from shooting the gun immediately whenever the need arises.

I'm sure there are others.

Like I said, if someone wants to explain why they're a BAD idea, or something to be AVOIDED, I'd be interested.

If someone just wants to repeat, "Glocks are good enough!" I'm not really interested, since I have tried them, I have thought this through, and I have a fair amount of life experience upon which I base my judgments.

They're my judgments about a mechanical device, and they're not about you.

I do believe, however, that if more people took Murphy's Law seriously, we wouldn't keep hearing "Just keep your finger off the trigger!" in response to a question about the design of a mechanical device.

 

[KBintheSLC]

Armedbear,

Look chief... I really don't mean to be harsh with you. We are all on the same team here as far as I am concerned. I understand your point, but at the same time I am sick of reading thread after thread of folks telling me what a moron I am for carrying a particular weapon.

We all pick our guns for different, personal reasons. Just because you don't feel comfortable with a particular gun does not mean that I am a walking hazard if I choose it.

Therefore, if you have issues with Glocks, keep it directed at Glocks. I know they are not liked by everyone, and that is just fine. But, please do not pretend like you know anything about me or my level of competence based on my choice of weapon... especially when that weapon is a widely-used, duty-proven platform.


Thanks, KB

 

[Guillermo]

I am impressed... 2 pages and still no rabid Glock haters telling us how stupid and reckless we are for owning them. Congrats.

Glocks are horrendous and dangerous and you are all fools for owning a gun without an external safety.

 

[polekitty]

To safety or not to safety

I've never done any tests, but it seems to me the little thingie would have to be only a tiny fraction of the weight of the trigger for it not to travel along with the trigger when the inirtial force pulls the trigger, resulting in the gun still firing. I keep wondering why they even bother with it in the first place. As for revolvers having no safety, actually they do. They have a really heavy trigger pull weight compared with almost any pistol (except an HK which has a really miserable trigger pull.

But, just a thought: How often, when you hear someone say a guy put a round into the floor (or his foot) everyone in the room says "It was a Glock?"

 

[ScareyH22A]

If trigger discipline is all that matters, why stop with Glocks. Why wouldn't someone carry a 1lb trigger competition 1911 around in Condition 0? Because that's just plain ridiculous. Even a Glock owner would probably agree. So why is a 4lb trigger on a Glock safe for everyone with good trigger finger discipline? Because 4lbs is absolutely safe and 2lbs is insane? Where do you draw the line? I've handled a 2.5lb Wilson Combat and would NEVER carry that Condition 0. Would you? It's a matter of opinion and people have every right to think you're crazy to carry a Glock.

 

[oneounceload]

Glocks are horrendous and dangerous and you are all fools for owning a gun without an external safety.

and if you are not being facetious, then YOU are a fool and a moron.....if YOU can't keep your finger off the trigger, then buy yourself some bear spray and spare us another news item due to stupidity......

 

[Hostile Amish]

The light trigger pull of the Glock is due to the fact that it is ALWAYS carried in Condition 0 Mode, akin to a cocked 1911 with safety off.

The Glock's trigger is not truly double-action at all. IT IS SINGLE ACTION ONLY. I cannot express this enough. When you dry fire the gun, the trigger cannot be actuated again to cock the striker. The striker is precocked, and the trigger pull cocks it the rest of the way and releases the striker.

However, I think that if care is taken and a good, safe holster is obtained, you needn't worry about the safety of your Glock.

 

[Prince Yamato]

Even with the 3.5lb trigger, the Glock is not that easy to set off. You basically have to be an incompetent to have an AD with one. Stick it in a holster and you're fine.

On a cocked and locked 1911, how hard is it to knock the safety off? Pretty easy. Then you have a very light trigger pull and a skinny trigger guard.

Fiddle with an unloaded Glock, see how "easy" it is to make it go off... it's not easy at all.

 

[ScareyH22A]

Yeah but whats the chances that you unlock the thumb safety, THEN accidently pull the trigger on a 1911 in that order?

 

[TAB]

You must also depress the grib safety.

 

[GregGry]

The light trigger pull of the Glock is due to the fact that it is ALWAYS carried in Condition 0 Mode, akin to a cocked 1911 with safety off.

This is part of the reason why people incorrectly fear glocks.

A 1911 typically has no firing pin block, and could fail (hammer hits the firing pin when dropped) if the safety isn't engaged. It also has a much shorter trigger pull then the glock. The glock has a firing pin block, the striker is held at half-cock, and the trigger pull is longer then a 1911.

If you look at most of the NDs that happened with a glock, a XD would not have prevented them. A grip safety does nothing when the person holding the gun never clears it properly before pulling the trigger. Not to mention holstering a firearm (and having a ND due to something being caught in the trigger guard) would not be prevented with a grip safety, since you could be securely holding your pistol when you holster it anyways.

The XD is only safer in the mind. Yes it has a loaded chamber indicator, but just because that says its not loaded, does that mean you can skip checking the chamber for a round? The answer is no. Yes it has a grip safety, but give me a situation that it will prevent a ND or a actual accidental discharge, that a glock wont protect from?

The only advantage a manual safety has is that the firearm should not fire if something tries to pull the trigger. Nothing should be pulling the trigger unless you want it to shoot however. Complacency when it comes to the care needed when holstering a weapon is to blame when you have a ND when holstering a weapon. The firearm is not to blame.

 

[4Freedom]

I dunno about you, but I have been feeling happy with the DA safety on my Sig and S&W M&P. I think glocks are similar. Personally , I think Cocked and locked is more dangerous, as you may forget ur safety is on in a life/death scenario. Also, you think your safety is on and go to acidentally pull the light SA trigger and blow urself up. Yes, I know people will say that is only what negligent people do, well crap happens to even the best. At least with a DA gun I know its always going to go boom and don't have to rely on additional movements in time of crisis. How many people witha gun pointed at them will remember to remove the safety. A quick reflex will be grab gun pull trigger, but to go and find the safety and undo it is just one more thing you have to do with a body full of adrenaline.

Well, this is my conclusion , I am a noob and not an expert, but I feel comfortable. As far as DA's going off, well I holster my gun and trigger is covered. Why on earth are people shooting themselves? Do their triggers pull themselves?

 

[GregGry]

I dunno about you, but I have been feeling happy with the DA safety on my Sig and S&W M&P. I think glocks are similar. Personally , I think Cocked and locked is more dangerous, as you may forget ur safety is on in a life/death scenario.

In theory cocked and locked is more dangerous Something that is set to fire, and only needs something to fail inorder for the hammer to fall, is more capable of firing then something that has its hammer down. There is no stored energy capable of setting off the round with the hammer down, vs hammer back. However with modern firearms a mechanical failure which causes a actual accidental discharge (aka going off when its holstered) is non existent.

Training is key to stopping the threat and using firearms under stress. If you train to use a manual safety, forgetting to take the safety off is not going to happen under stress. Yes it is one more thing that has to be done, however it becomes natural after minimal training.

Also, you think your safety is on and go to acidentally pull the light SA trigger and blow urself up. Yes, I know people will say that is only what negligent people do, well crap happens to even the best. At least with a DA gun I know its always going to go boom and don't have to rely on additional movements in time of crisis. How many people witha gun pointed at them will remember to remove the safety. A quick reflex will be grab gun pull trigger, but to go and find the safety and undo it is just one more thing you have to do with a body full of adrenaline.

You shouldn't be pulling the trigger or putting your finger in the trigger guard unless you cleared the weapon first. Complacency is what causes NDs, not lack of safeties.

I can see that you don't have much experience with manual safety firearms and combat training/shooting. If you train with a manual safety you train to operate it by disengaging the safety as part of the draw. When SHTF you aren't going to think about operating the safety, you are going to do it automatically. You wont be fumbling in an attempt to fix the safety, provided you actually practice. Just like if you don't practice shooting when the time comes to use your weapon your not going to become a bullseye shooter. In my experience the best shooters on a static range shoot the best overall when it comes to live fire training. Sure some can crack under the pressure, however that isn't the case in most instances.

 

[Guillermo]

and if you are not being facetious, then YOU are a fool and a moron

It was a joke...I own a G19 and an XD45. As someone put so elegantly in a former post, just don't put your booger hook on the bang switch until you are ready to shoot and everything w b fine.

 

[nofishbob]

After reading all these replies, I did a quick test on my stock G21 to see how easy it would be to "accidentally " pull the trigger.

After confirming that it was unloaded, I could pick the gun up by the trigger pointing the muzzle down, while depressing the trigger safety, and the trigger would not "fire".

I could bounce the gun with my finger in the above position with no effect.

Even adding the weight of a full mag would not change the above.

Fumbling for a Glock is probably not what gets people into trouble, the trigger when stock is just not that sensitive.

My concern would be catching the trigger on something while re holstering.

Bob

 

[4Freedom]

I am definately not overly experienced and I know people can certainly master, even under worst stress a cocked and locked gun with safety. My own personal theory, and yes, I can be very wrong, is that a lot of these police or others who are shooting themselves with glocks, probably were previously using guns with safeties. Perhaps, since they were so well trained with the other type of gun, when they switched to DA safety, their minds didn't correlate the fact that the safety is no longer there. Perhaps some of these same people felt so secure with their safety that they would draw with finger on trigger, which is a no-no with DA, at least from my experience with them.

My S&W M&P45 has a very light DA and I am more careful with it. I always keep my finger on the frame of the gun until I am ready to go bang. I am training my mind to do that, to avoid disasters.

 

[DentThat]

Holy #^$% I can't believe this keeps coming up.
If you are soooo worried about it, THEN DON'T GET ONE! Am I the only one in the room!?!?!?!?

Well, I own a Glock 19 and am simply interested in understanding my gun even more.

IBTL, my troll radar just went off.

...so you are incorrect

As I understand the Glock trigger safety, it is not a safety at all. It helps prevent the gun from firing if dropped. If you drop the gun on the butt, the trigger is moving at the same speed as the gun (object in motion law of gravity and all) the trigger is moving the same speed as the gun. Gun stops on the floor, trigger keeps moving backwards, gun fires. Trigger safety is supposed to prevent that. Trigger cannot move backwards unless the little tab is depressed.

Now THAT is an answer. Thanks. Makes a lot of sense

BTW... To the OP if you do a search for <glock trigger safety> or <glock accidental/negligent discharge> you will find that this has been hashed out hundreds of times here... the result is always the same. It just becomes a good Glock - bad Glock argument.

That wasn't my intention. I just wanted to understand the reasoning behind the Glock "safety"

(concerning the XD safeties) Like I said, if someone wants to explain why they're a BAD idea, or something to be AVOIDED, I'd be interested.

If someone just wants to repeat, "Glocks are good enough!" I'm not really interested, since I have tried them, I have thought this through, and I have a fair amount of life experience upon which I base my judgments.

Yeah, the XD is just like the Glock's safety, but with an added rear grip safety, which does no ill harm. What do people have against it?

Please drop all this Glock nuthugging. I own a Glock. It's great. I just want to compare it with others (especially the XD's) and understandmy G19 more.
Thank you


EDIT:
Another reason I created this thread is because I've always imagined myself in a scenario where another man is attempting to wrestle away my gun and he turns it towards me (while it's still somewhat in my handgrip) and shoots me. With the XD rear grip safety, that wouldn't happen because the gun wouldn't be gripped properly and thus, the safety not fully depressed.

Now, I know, I know, you're never suppose to have a person get that close to you and yes, it's a very Hollywood scenario, but there are such things as a surprise ambush. And then you attempt to take your gun out and he see's it and tries to grab for it...

 

[JohnKSa]

Can someone explain to me WHY it works? I mean, if something with enough force were to accidentally pull the trigger, then it'll just push the safety in, basically nullifying the whole point of the safety.

As you properly determined, it's not there to prevent you (or someone you're wrestling with) from intentionally pulling the trigger of the gun. So why IS it there?

The simplest answer is that it helps prevent trigger snags. The trigger safety occupies less than 15% of the trigger surface, so if something snags on the other 85+% it won't set the gun off.

A slightly more complicated answer will point out that the trigger curves and that a snagging object will likely ride up the curve of the trigger. If it does, it will end up at the top of the trigger where the trigger safety can not be activated.

If your eyes haven't already glazed over, you might find it instructive to compare the width of the Glock triggerguard, relative to the trigger, to the triggerguards/triggers of other guns. You'll find that the Glock triggerguard actually provides a good bit more protection to the trigger than what is found on the average autopistol. Combine that with the trigger safety and you've got a pretty snag-resistant operating system.

"Wow, lots of work to reduce the chances of a trigger snag! Snags must be a real problem.", you might say. Actually, they're not. It turns out that trigger snags get a lot of press but when it comes right down to it, they're a pretty uncommon source of unintentional discharges. Probably fewer than 1% of unintentional discharges happen as the result of a trigger snag.

And that leads us to the primary reason that the trigger safety exists. It's there to lock the trigger bar in place in the event that the gun is dropped or subjected to a shock that might provide sufficient impetus/momentum to the trigger bar to move it enough to fire the pistol. As long as the trigger bar doesn't move, the other passive safeties will prevent the gun from firing.

If you feel it's likely you might end up wrestling with someone for your firearm, there are other gun choices out there that might give you more options for disabling the gun/preventing it from firing.