2nd Amendment
member
There's that Nazi thing again...
got an illegal (LEO) mag on the internet-what to do?
- Thread starter Peter Gun
- Start date
- Status
I find 444's response very disturbing, especially coming from a gun owner. His response is, in my opinion, the very reason for the demise of our society and quality of life. What do I speak of? Responsibility. Responsibility is what has brought about the downfall of the classic American life. Back in the "good old days" there was less crime, there were less lawsuits, there was less BS. I personally was not there, however the stories I hear from my father and grandfather are proof enough. Gun manufacturers and dealers were not sued if someone purchased a firearm through them and killed people. Why? Because it's not their fault ... its sole blame should be placed on the individual who committed the heinous act. Today, our legal system is a joke. Frivilous lawsuits run rampant at the expense of the general public, yet people are too ignorant and greedy to realize this. That $3 box of cookies you buy at Publix doesn't cost near that much to produce/distribute. No, part of that purchasing price is the equip the supermarket with full time video surveilence to protect itself against fraudulent slip and fall lawsuits. Part of that $3 is to pay the off-duty LEO working as a security gaurd to protect the store from theft and to keep its customers and employees happy. Sure, $3 isn't much ... but it's the principle that makes it a big deal. It's people who share 444's views that have driven the cost of firearms straight through the roof. My $800 stainless Colt 1991-A1 wasn't near that much to produce nor distribute. Personally, I abhor the views of people such as 444. Take that personally if you wish, but it's you and your type who are ruining this country for my heirs. IF you prove to the man who sold you the magazine that it is CLEARLY marked LEO only, he deserves whatever swift and merciless punishment the ATF exacts upon him. He must take RESPONSIBILITY for his actions. Furthermore, it should NOT be the buyers job to ask before bidding if it's an LEO only item. It's the seller's RESPONSIBILITY UNDER FEDERAL LAW to know WHAT HE IS SELLING and to only partake in transactions that are devoid of any violations of Federal law. The man purchasing the clip knew only that he was purchasing what was represented to him. The representation is the seller's RESPONSIBILITY. I'm going to shut up now and go grab a Pepsi and cool off.
Oh, and I am not a lawyer, I'm a dual major (chemical engineering/marine biology) student at the University of South Florida, but maybe I am going down the wrong path. LOL
Oh, and I am not a lawyer, I'm a dual major (chemical engineering/marine biology) student at the University of South Florida, but maybe I am going down the wrong path. LOL
Last edited:
"Gun manufacturers and dealers were not sued if someone purchased a firearm through them and killed people. Why? Because it's not their fault ... its sole blame should be placed on the individual who committed the heinous act. "
" IF you prove to the man who sold you the magazine that it is CLEARLY marked LEO only, he deserves whatever swift and merciless punishment the ATF exacts upon him. "
See any problem here ?
Gee Joe, you are going to hurt my feelings if you keep it up. Being responsible for the downfall of society is a heavy burden to carry without you rubbing it in.
" IF you prove to the man who sold you the magazine that it is CLEARLY marked LEO only, he deserves whatever swift and merciless punishment the ATF exacts upon him. "
See any problem here ?
Gee Joe, you are going to hurt my feelings if you keep it up. Being responsible for the downfall of society is a heavy burden to carry without you rubbing it in.
45Badger
Member
444-
The seller didn't invite anybody to a revolution. He sent a magazine that is illegal to own. The buyer doesn't necessarily want to participate in civil disobedience or a revolution over a LEO hi-cap. He wants a refund. If the pinhead seller won't make it right, why should ANYBODY defend or condone his actions, and seek to protect his well being?
If you want to start a revolution or start an exercise in civil disobedience- I say go for it! It's your business. If you want to change stupid, ineffectual laws, do it in the voting booth. That's how they got there in the first place.
The seller didn't invite anybody to a revolution. He sent a magazine that is illegal to own. The buyer doesn't necessarily want to participate in civil disobedience or a revolution over a LEO hi-cap. He wants a refund. If the pinhead seller won't make it right, why should ANYBODY defend or condone his actions, and seek to protect his well being?
If you want to start a revolution or start an exercise in civil disobedience- I say go for it! It's your business. If you want to change stupid, ineffectual laws, do it in the voting booth. That's how they got there in the first place.
Last edited:
It's the moral fabric of the society that is torn with every bleeding heart act. Sorry if I was a bit harsh, but I see every little detail as adding up to a whole.
Just 3 nights ago I was talking with a TPD officer friend of mine. He told me a story of one man, who is now in jail for life whom he arrested when he first became a cop some 20 years ago. It was habitual, they became kinda half-assed friends. The guy knew he was wrong and always let the officer arrest him. The man even gave the officer a derogatory nickname and told him "you got me this time, but I'll smoke you next time" and the officer would respond " I run 5 miles a day, you are gonna have to do better than that," etc. It was in the late 80's, amidst the beginnings of the media hype and when he went to arrest this man for the 8th time in his carreer, the man asked "It's 'cuz I'm black, isn't it _____?) Insert name here. He then asked the perp how many times he's ridden in the back of his squad car and how it was any different than the first 7 times.
See, to you 444 it's nothing, to me it's everything. Trying to place the blame on the LEO and calling him racist is the same as telling this man who purchased an illegal clip that he shouldn't turn the seller into the ATF because that's cruel and unusual punishment. What you are doing is removing the responsibility from the rightful parties and distributing it amongst the masses in an unfair manor. Do you see my point?
Oh and no, I do not favor the hi-cap ban either, I realize turning him in "gives in" to the law I despise, but you must weigh the two evils and make a conscious decision. It is my opinion, that turning him in is the lesser of the two evils.
Just 3 nights ago I was talking with a TPD officer friend of mine. He told me a story of one man, who is now in jail for life whom he arrested when he first became a cop some 20 years ago. It was habitual, they became kinda half-assed friends. The guy knew he was wrong and always let the officer arrest him. The man even gave the officer a derogatory nickname and told him "you got me this time, but I'll smoke you next time" and the officer would respond " I run 5 miles a day, you are gonna have to do better than that," etc. It was in the late 80's, amidst the beginnings of the media hype and when he went to arrest this man for the 8th time in his carreer, the man asked "It's 'cuz I'm black, isn't it _____?) Insert name here. He then asked the perp how many times he's ridden in the back of his squad car and how it was any different than the first 7 times.
See, to you 444 it's nothing, to me it's everything. Trying to place the blame on the LEO and calling him racist is the same as telling this man who purchased an illegal clip that he shouldn't turn the seller into the ATF because that's cruel and unusual punishment. What you are doing is removing the responsibility from the rightful parties and distributing it amongst the masses in an unfair manor. Do you see my point?
Oh and no, I do not favor the hi-cap ban either, I realize turning him in "gives in" to the law I despise, but you must weigh the two evils and make a conscious decision. It is my opinion, that turning him in is the lesser of the two evils.
I think that you two need to go back and read my previous posts. At no point did I condone this guys actions. In fact I was highly critical of his actions. If you feel the need to place blame somewhere, that is fine, although I have never understood how that is going to change anything. At no point did I advocate revolution or civil disobience. In fact, in every case I stated that my opinion was to get rid of the magazine ASAP. I also never once advocated knowingly breaking any laws. The problem I have with the whole situation is the idea that using the biggest possible hammer to iron out a problem such as this isn't IMO the answer. Maybe I am getting soft in my old age. I just don't see the reason to completely ruin another mans life over something like this. I think the punishment far outstrips the crime. And to me, the argument that he did it to me first belongs on the grade school playground.
Joe, you want to talk about moral fabric. Explain to me how it is moral to totally ruin this guys life, up to and possibly including his death (see Ruby Ridge) because of this crime he commited.
Joe, you want to talk about moral fabric. Explain to me how it is moral to totally ruin this guys life, up to and possibly including his death (see Ruby Ridge) because of this crime he commited.
Because, and if I knew your name I would adress you in a friendly, formal manner, the seller has obviously
consciously done the same thing to the buyer. It's not out of line for me to say that guns are not toys, they are very serious and there are VERY serious laws concerning the ownership/sales/trade/discharging of them and it's each individual's responsibility to know the laws for whatever they are dabbling in. "I didn't know it was only a 40 MPH zone" doesn't always get you out of a ticket does it? No, you were educated when you recieved your license, showed proficiency in handling an automobile AND signed a legal, binding contract with the state ACKNOWLEDGING and AGREEING to the responsibilities that go along with driving. Also, you acknowledged and agreed to any punishments that would be forced upon you for breaking those laws, willfully or not. Selling guns and gun parts is not like selling flowers. They are serious items and should be treated as such. By selling that magazine, he has knowingly or not agreed to all Federal laws regaurding gun ownership/sales and it's governing agency, the ATF. Yes, it might be harsh, but you have to know what you are doing. Would you willfully travel down a dark alley while traveling in another town/state, etc?
Bill St. Clair
Member
The idea that there are good ATF agents brings to mind one of my favorite L. Neil Smith quotes:
"Reread that pesky first clause of the Second Amendment. It doesn't say what any of us thought it said. What it says is that infringing the right of the people to keep and bears arms is treason. What else do you call an act that endangers 'the security of a free state'? And if it's treason, then it's punishable by death. I suggest due process, speedy trials, and public hangings."
Any law restricting possession of any weapon useful to the militia (that's us, all of us) is a blatant violation of the second amendment. Hence, every legislator who votes for such a law, and every LEO who enforces one, should be tried for treason.
Until the "F" is taken out of BATFE (the Homeland Security Act added "Explosives" to the list), every ATF agent who does his job is a traitor by definition.
Every LEO takes an oath to protect and defend the constitution. It is part of his duty to refuse to follow an unconsitutional order and to refuse to enforce an unconstitutional law.
"Reread that pesky first clause of the Second Amendment. It doesn't say what any of us thought it said. What it says is that infringing the right of the people to keep and bears arms is treason. What else do you call an act that endangers 'the security of a free state'? And if it's treason, then it's punishable by death. I suggest due process, speedy trials, and public hangings."
Any law restricting possession of any weapon useful to the militia (that's us, all of us) is a blatant violation of the second amendment. Hence, every legislator who votes for such a law, and every LEO who enforces one, should be tried for treason.
Until the "F" is taken out of BATFE (the Homeland Security Act added "Explosives" to the list), every ATF agent who does his job is a traitor by definition.
Every LEO takes an oath to protect and defend the constitution. It is part of his duty to refuse to follow an unconsitutional order and to refuse to enforce an unconstitutional law.
Responsibility.
That seems to be something that you are keenly interested in. You also make the statement "Would you willfully travel down a dark alley while traveling in another town/state, etc?" Think about this. If you decide to by something sight unseen, from someone you don't know, how much responsibility is yours ? I don't know the laws on selling these LE only mags, so I can't comment on it. I have over the years seen a number of items for sale that were barely legal. For example years ago, there were switchblade knive kits for sale. The contained a warning that if you put the knife together you were responsible. I used to see suppressor kits for sale at gunshows that contained the warning that all applicable laws applied and if you drilled a hole in the end of it, you were responsible. I currently see kits for sale for full auto weapons. These kits do not include a receiver. If you build or obtain a receiver, you may be in violation of the law. But on the other hand, in each case, there are people who can legally use these parts. For example, I own a legal Sten submachine gun. I could buy that parts kit for my own legal gun. However someone else might buy one an use it to put together an illegal gun. The problem here isn't with the seller, he is selling something that is perfectly legal in it's present form. Again, I don't know the laws in this case. Let me repeat that, I don't know the laws in this case. Do you have to submit valid proof that you are a LEO to buy one of these magazines ? Or is it up to you to make sure that you can legally buy the item ? Because I know it is legal to sell them, at least to LEO. So selling them in and of itself isn't a crime. I would guess that ID is required and this is all a moot point, but I don't know.
In another post you mention lawsuits. You also mention the costs of all these law suits. You mention how lawsuits end up effecting most every part of our lives. I agree. And I don't see this as being all that different. Instead of just accepting the fact that you were duped, ripped off, cheated, placed in a bad situation ................. You instead choose to involve a government agency to work this out for you. I realize that this isn't about money, but never the less the guy is out I think $160. How much is it going to cost the taxpayer to involve ATF ? Will calling them get him back the $160 ?
That seems to be something that you are keenly interested in. You also make the statement "Would you willfully travel down a dark alley while traveling in another town/state, etc?" Think about this. If you decide to by something sight unseen, from someone you don't know, how much responsibility is yours ? I don't know the laws on selling these LE only mags, so I can't comment on it. I have over the years seen a number of items for sale that were barely legal. For example years ago, there were switchblade knive kits for sale. The contained a warning that if you put the knife together you were responsible. I used to see suppressor kits for sale at gunshows that contained the warning that all applicable laws applied and if you drilled a hole in the end of it, you were responsible. I currently see kits for sale for full auto weapons. These kits do not include a receiver. If you build or obtain a receiver, you may be in violation of the law. But on the other hand, in each case, there are people who can legally use these parts. For example, I own a legal Sten submachine gun. I could buy that parts kit for my own legal gun. However someone else might buy one an use it to put together an illegal gun. The problem here isn't with the seller, he is selling something that is perfectly legal in it's present form. Again, I don't know the laws in this case. Let me repeat that, I don't know the laws in this case. Do you have to submit valid proof that you are a LEO to buy one of these magazines ? Or is it up to you to make sure that you can legally buy the item ? Because I know it is legal to sell them, at least to LEO. So selling them in and of itself isn't a crime. I would guess that ID is required and this is all a moot point, but I don't know.
In another post you mention lawsuits. You also mention the costs of all these law suits. You mention how lawsuits end up effecting most every part of our lives. I agree. And I don't see this as being all that different. Instead of just accepting the fact that you were duped, ripped off, cheated, placed in a bad situation ................. You instead choose to involve a government agency to work this out for you. I realize that this isn't about money, but never the less the guy is out I think $160. How much is it going to cost the taxpayer to involve ATF ? Will calling them get him back the $160 ?
Yeah, I harp on responsibility. Like I said, its my opinion that responsibility, or lack thereof is what is killing this country.
Yes, from what I understand, it is the seller's responsibility, under Federal Law, to ONLY sell LEO parts to valid LEOs who can submit proof. That's why I say it is acceptable to make him face the music. IF I am wrong I will admit and apollogize, but only if you can prove me wrong.
As far as cost involving the ATF ... again, I think it's something that is necessary. We don't bitch about the cost of prosecuting demons such as David Westerfield who kidnapped, raped and murdered 7-year old Daniel van Dam. Oh what I would give to strap his ass into the electric chair and personally flip the switch. I would also shoot him point-blank in the head, but by admitting that, I have just proven I'm a blood crazed, homicidal lunatic that fits the stereotype of gun owners and I'm dangerous.
But, I digress, there is a difference between costs from legitimate lawsuits and frivilous lawsuits. No, it will not get him his $160 back, what it will do is *hopefully* punish and teach the seller a lesson. Breaking laws = bad.
Yes, from what I understand, it is the seller's responsibility, under Federal Law, to ONLY sell LEO parts to valid LEOs who can submit proof. That's why I say it is acceptable to make him face the music. IF I am wrong I will admit and apollogize, but only if you can prove me wrong.
As far as cost involving the ATF ... again, I think it's something that is necessary. We don't bitch about the cost of prosecuting demons such as David Westerfield who kidnapped, raped and murdered 7-year old Daniel van Dam. Oh what I would give to strap his ass into the electric chair and personally flip the switch. I would also shoot him point-blank in the head, but by admitting that, I have just proven I'm a blood crazed, homicidal lunatic that fits the stereotype of gun owners and I'm dangerous.
But, I digress, there is a difference between costs from legitimate lawsuits and frivilous lawsuits. No, it will not get him his $160 back, what it will do is *hopefully* punish and teach the seller a lesson. Breaking laws = bad.
WonderNine
member
While I'm the staunchest supporter of the 2nd, this guy ripped him off. The guy that sold him the mag is a dealer and probably payed $5 for it. Peter probably payed a hell of a lot more than that for a "preban" mag.
This has nothing to do with supporting gun control and everything to do with getting what you payed for. Wussing out will get you nowhere in life.
Peter, if I were you I would tell the seller that I am going to ship the mag back and demand that he give me a legal one. Where did you buy this mag from? Gunbroker? What is the sellers username?
Throughout this whole thread I have never made a position on the magazine ban itself.
I think you need to realize that crime takes on many different faces. For example, we all know that there are numerous "crimes" that involve nothing but paperwork errors or omissions. Or "crimes" like this were the crime involves some lettering on the side of a magazine. Obviously there is no comparison between the rape and murder of a child and someone who possesses a magazine with the wrong lettering on the side of it. "there is a difference between costs from legitimate lawsuits and frivilous lawsuits". That may be true, but I consider this a frivilous crime. This is certainly not the type of thing I want my tax money spent on.
If this was a question of "what it will do is *hopefully* punish and teach the seller a lesson. Breaking laws = bad", that is one thing. However more than likely a SWAT team will decend on his house or business with the very weapons and magazines that we are not allowed to own. If he makes on false move they will fill him and anyone else full of lead. Assuming that doesn't happen, he will most likely lose everything he has and we can support him in federal prison; All that for selling a magazine with the wrong writing on the side.
I think you need to realize that crime takes on many different faces. For example, we all know that there are numerous "crimes" that involve nothing but paperwork errors or omissions. Or "crimes" like this were the crime involves some lettering on the side of a magazine. Obviously there is no comparison between the rape and murder of a child and someone who possesses a magazine with the wrong lettering on the side of it. "there is a difference between costs from legitimate lawsuits and frivilous lawsuits". That may be true, but I consider this a frivilous crime. This is certainly not the type of thing I want my tax money spent on.
If this was a question of "what it will do is *hopefully* punish and teach the seller a lesson. Breaking laws = bad", that is one thing. However more than likely a SWAT team will decend on his house or business with the very weapons and magazines that we are not allowed to own. If he makes on false move they will fill him and anyone else full of lead. Assuming that doesn't happen, he will most likely lose everything he has and we can support him in federal prison; All that for selling a magazine with the wrong writing on the side.
Of course this will also no doubt attract media attention that will show his arsenal of guns, and thousands of rounds of ammunition. This guy (implying all gun owners) are dangerous and must be stamped out at any cost. Not to mention the fact that this is another case of the "internet" loophole that must be eliminated immediately.
As is evidenced by what the buyer claims, he would deserve to lose his license and sit in jail. Obviously this isn't set in stone because we haven't heard the seller's story. But, if it were intentional, or negligent and unwilling to recant and admit mistake and right the wrong, he deserves whatever comes down upon him pursuant to Federal Law. I'm sorry, that's the way I see it. We don't have to agree with the laws, but we have to follow them. Just because some psycho thinks he should be able to slaughter/dismember/consume humans, doesn't mean we should turn the other cheek and allow him to "practice" what he wishes. We all have to abide by the laws if we like them or not, it's as simple as that.
Wildalaska
member
To what?...Enforcing the laws of this great nation?
Joe, come on now. In order to have an intelligent conversation we can't go off the deep end with the dramatics. For some reason you feel the need to equate this magazine with the most henious crimes known to man. I hope you are more rational than that. Why do we have to go from one extreme to the other ? From lettering on the side of a magazine to murder and canabalism ?
Wildalaska
member
Sorry sir, you are wrong. The Supreme Court of the United States has not ruled on the constituionality of a ban on high capcity ammunityion feeding devices manufactured after a certain date. No lower court has overturned the law. As such, the law is in fact constitutional. The Courts interpret the constituion, not you.
Your use of the word "treason' brings to mind the extreme anti government radicals who are the enemies of the RKBA.
Furthermore your quoting with approval:
" And if it's treason, then it's punishable by death. I suggest due process, speedy trials, and public hangings."
is so outraegous as to shock the conscience of all decent people... surely sir you are not coming on this Board advocating, or approving the MURDER of law enforcement agents to satisfy a warped view of the constitution?
You should be ashamed and voluntarily remove your post.
Wildalaska
member
You are right, absolutely 100% right...and any dealer worth his salt who has to go through the day to day aggravation of following all the rules would probably agree that this guy, if he has an FFL, must go...
Actions like his makes it harder on the rest of us...
Kahr carrier
Member
I would send him back the mag priority mail with a signature receipt required about 5.65 in most areas of the US and if he doesnt refund your money I would dispute the charge with Paypal. I would not go to the ATF because you are caught in a catch 22 you did not knowingly intend to purchase an Leo mag ,But you are in Possession which is against the Law.:banghead:
labgrade
Member In Memoriam
I edited my post on page 2 & am sorry that I made it. Wasn't called for & slamming those who have a different opinion than I isn't worthy of TFL, or THR , and isn't worthy to let lay there. I didn't do it lightly, as I'll usually allow my stupidity stand as a flag to others ..... mea culpa
Hope yall'd accept this in the spirit intended - that of a decent & civil discussion.
I have been wrapped up in something a bit too much for me to handle & still this "enforcing laws of this great nation," wildalaska.
(deep breath)
Yes. I wholeheartedly agree with your last, but have to respectfully disagree with the former.
"These laws" are what is trashing us & pitting us law-abiders against each other.
My emotional outburst wasn't againt the thread's premise, but moreso that we should even be concerned about that this could even be a felony.
A folded/stamped piece of metal, a spring, a piece of plastic.
Without even going into how this illegal material may be used, I would ask how is it that this (once, much) great(er) nation has come to such a state of affairs that we law-abiders must even ask the question .....
Hope yall'd accept this in the spirit intended - that of a decent & civil discussion.
I have been wrapped up in something a bit too much for me to handle & still this "enforcing laws of this great nation," wildalaska.
(deep breath)
Yes. I wholeheartedly agree with your last, but have to respectfully disagree with the former.
"These laws" are what is trashing us & pitting us law-abiders against each other.
My emotional outburst wasn't againt the thread's premise, but moreso that we should even be concerned about that this could even be a felony.
A folded/stamped piece of metal, a spring, a piece of plastic.
Without even going into how this illegal material may be used, I would ask how is it that this (once, much) great(er) nation has come to such a state of affairs that we law-abiders must even ask the question .....
Justin Moore
Member
Amen to that.
Bill St. Clair
Member
Unlike most legislation, the constitution was written in very simple language, understandable by mere mortals. The courts have "interpreted" many parts of it out of existence. Some laws are recognizable as unconstitutional by any eighth grader. I agree that they are not "legally" unconsitutional until the courts rule that way, but they are still null and void and it is every patriot's duty to disobey such laws. Most of us, yours truly included, don't have the cojones to do so, but we should.
I'm not proposing the murder of anyone. Treason is one of the few federal crimes mentioned in the constitution. I am proposing "due process," i.e. arrest the perps, bring them before a grand jury, and, if indicted, give them "speedy trials" by a jury of their peers, and, if the jury finds them guilty, carry out the verdict via "public hangings". Standard legal procedure.
444, I'm just trying to make a point. In America we prosecute all crimes pursuant to Federal Laws. It's unfair to prosecute some and not others because we personally dislike the laws. This is morally wrong and could be construed (sp?) as being illegal. No one is above the law, no one has the power to"look away" just because they want to. That's why I made my analogy.
Tady45
Member
I WOULD NEVER TURN IN ANYONE TO THE FEDS! Most of the guys on Gunbroker are not dealers in the true sense of the word. They are mostly rather greedy individuals with not the best customer service skills. I am waiting as we speak, for some rounds that I paid for on Dec 17, 2002. Perhaps the guy is a dummy, and does not know what's up legally speaking? I know legal beagles, ingorance is no excuse... In any case, if you are worried, destroy the mag, render it disabled, and keep it as a paper weight. Use this as a lesson learned. The Feds have better things to do, then jack up some guy trying to make a few bucks on a mag. Preban mags command top dollar, sounds like this guy did not even know what he was selling. We just had an illegal alien gallivanting around the White House for the past couple of years. Perhaps are true national security issues could use more FED scrutiny.
Larry
Larry
- Status
