Graf and Sons 3F Black

[whughett]

Anybody here using this 3F powder. Comments appreciated before I place an order for it. $1 per # cheaper than Goex, $111.40 for 5lbs, $186.35 for 10 lbs.
Made in Germany for them with Alder charcoal so they say.
My LGS in Rhody charges 21.95 a pound for Goex.

 

[Willie Sutton]

What shop are you buying BP from?

Willie

(On a boat in Wakefield on the salt pond,, or at least when it's warmer out)

 

[whughett]

Bullseye in Woosocket. Brought 4 lbs down with me in January.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

The Graf powder is actually Schuetzen packaged in Graf's own bottles. Yes, made in Germany by Wano, the same people who make Schuetzen. Yes, they use a better grade of charcoal. It is excellent stuff, all I use these days is Schuetzen. It tends to burn a bit cleaner than Goex because of the better charcoal.

 

[Fingers McGee]

The Graf powder is actually Schuetzen packaged in Graf's own bottles. Yes, made in Germany by Wano, the same people who make Schuetzen. Yes, they use a better grade of charcoal. It is excellent stuff, all I use these days is Schuetzen. It tends to burn a bit cleaner than Goex because of the better charcoal.

+1. It's what I use.

 

[Prairie Dawg]

+2 Great powder
I use it in 2 Fg & 3Fg
--Dawg

 

[loose noose]

I've used Swiss, Elephant, Goex, Dragon, Kiki, and to be perfectly honest, I can't see the difference in Black Powder, other than the granulation and the price. I generally use Goex, as so far that is what is the easiest to get a hold of.

I'm constantly hearing the best BP is the German Schuetzen because of the "charcoal etc. and it burns so much cleaner". I have tried it several years ago and paid a premium price for it, but I really couldn't tell the difference in performance or the much cleaner claims.

So go ahead and flame me, I'm a big boy and I can take it. Just my experience with it is all. Perhaps all my smoke poles are just accustomed to less expensive brands of BP.

 

[Don McDowell]

Anybody here using this 3F powder. Comments appreciated before I place an order for it. $1 per # cheaper than Goex, $111.40 for 5lbs, $186.35 for 10 lbs.
Made in Germany for them with Alder charcoal so they say.
My LGS in Rhody charges 21.95 a pound for Goex.

If you've been using Goex 3f, then Grafs 2f is about the equivalent. Grafs 3f is about halfway between Goex 3f and 4f.
It's good powder.

 

[mec]

"So go ahead and flame me, I'm a big boy and I can take it. Just my experience ."

Not hardly. You might be able to tell a difference in handguns with a chronograph- for instance swiss fffg is more energetic, heavier in the same volume and produces higher velocity than goex fffg. but difference accuracy or other factors including extreme spready are not significant inthe short guns.

 

[whughett]

Thanks all.
Think I'll place the order then. With todays market shortages in our sport best to stock up at todays prices. It stores well and don't cost nothing to feed.

 

[Don McDowell]

Have you checked with Powder Inc.? The carry Goex, Swiss, and Schuetzen, the prices they show are delivered.

 

[whughett]

Have you checked with Powder Inc.? The carry Goex, Swiss, and Schuetzen, the prices they show are delivered.

Graff and Son are a few cents cheaper and their order process is much faster with the transaction being completed in one internet session from start to finish. Powder Inc requires
more person to person interaction over phone or by mail.
As a hearing impaired person telephones are hard for me to use.

Neither place had percussion caps in stock.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

I'm constantly hearing the best BP is the German Schuetzen because of the "charcoal etc. and it burns so much cleaner". I have tried it several years ago and paid a premium price for it, but I really couldn't tell the difference in performance or the much cleaner claims.

If you read my post again, I said Schuetzen 'tends to burn a bit cleaner than Goex because of the better charcoal.' I made no further extravagant claims than that. I too have used a variety of different powders over the years, Goex, Wano, Elephant, and Schuetzen. Mostly Goex since 1968. When I tried Schutzen I noticed it took a two or three fewer patches to swab the bore of a 44-40 caliber rifle clean than it did with Goex. I made no claims that it is any kind of wonder-powder, simply it tends to burn a bit cleaner. That is the total extent of the data I have from the extremely sophisticated empirical tests that I conducted. Do with it as you will.

 

[Don McDowell]

I guess I haven't noticed any difference in ordering from Powder Inc, and Grafs. Once you have your eligibility statement on file with Powder Inc. , it's no different than ordering from Grafs.
I have found that when ordering up to 10 lbs there's no difference in price, but when you get over 10 lbs Powder Inc is cheaper by far. The real plus with Grafs is you can order odd number amounts, say you order ended up 3 or 7 lbs of powder, Grafs will ship it.

 

[Palehorseman]

Howdy

The Graf powder is actually Schuetzen packaged in Graf's own bottles. Yes, made in Germany by Wano, the same people who make Schuetzen. Yes, they use a better grade of charcoal. It is excellent stuff, all I use these days is Schuetzen. It tends to burn a bit cleaner than Goex because of the better charcoal.

Ditto, you are absolutely correct as to powders being the same. The Mad Monk of black powder ran lab tests which proved Graf's and Schuetzen are exactly the same powder.

 

[Patocazador]

I have never used Swiss but my understanding is that competitive shooters prefer it due to ease of ignition, increased velocity, and relatively cleaner burning.

Since I am not a competitive shooter, I use Goex because it's more readily available, cheaper, and made in USA.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

I have never used Swiss but my understanding is that competitive shooters prefer it due to ease of ignition, increased velocity, and relatively cleaner burning.

Define 'competitive shooter'.

Yes, in BPCR circles, many competitive shooters prefer Swiss because of its superior performance.

However Cowboy Action Shooters are competitors too. At about $22.50/pound at Maine Powder House, using Swiss is a waste of money. It's like burning hi-test gas in a Volkswagen. You can do it, but the extra performance is wasted. Particularly in shotgun rounds, where the cheapest, dirtiest burning powder will suffice. At $16.00/ pound either Schuetzen or Goex makes much more sense. Don't forget, in CAS we shoot a lot of bullets. 60 rounds each rifle and revolver at a normal six stage match, plus a box of 25 shotgun shells. That's a lot of powder. Figure 35 grains or so each for my 45 Colt and 44-40 rounds, and about 60 grains each for my shotgun shells. Then do that a bunch of times per year. I go through close to 20 pounds of FFg in a year. There is simply no need for the 'high priced spread' shooting fast in CAS at normal CAS distances.

As far as ease of ignition goes, any Black Powder ignites just fine, in fact it ignites more easily than most Smokeless powders. As I have said a couple of times now, I prefer Schuetzen because it cleans up a little bit easier. A couple of years ago a friend sold me some old cans of Goex at a good price. I used them in my shotgun rounds.

 

[Don McDowell]

Ditto, you are absolutely correct as to powders being the same. The Mad Monk of black powder ran lab tests which proved Graf's and Schuetzen are exactly the same powder.

Didn't need Bill Knight to tell me they were the same, the cans are the same, just a different label.

 

[swathdiver]

Good stuff, a little less smoke than regular GOEX, clean up about the same, maybe a little cleaner burning.

 

[whughett]

So I ordered 10 pounds, that's about a two year supply for me. Just rec shooting c&b not cartridges. One of the things, among many, about BP is it slows one down a bit. An afternoon of shooting may be close to a hundred rounds, once or twice a week. Cartridges would be closer to 300, rimfire 400. To some folks quanity is quality.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Black Powder cartridges also take more time to crank out than Smokeless cartridges. I seldom load more than 200 in a sitting. So I ain't gonna be blasting them off as fast as I would Smokeless rounds.

 

[whughett]

Black Powder cartridges also take more time to crank out than Smokeless cartridges. I seldom load more than 200 in a sitting. So I ain't gonna be blasting them off as fast as I would Smokeless rounds.

Which leads me to this dumb question. Why not just use regular loads cranked out on a progressive. On the rare occasion when I use the conversion cylinder on the ROA I just shoot what I would in the S&W Model 25. Only difference being the ROA rounds have to be somewhat shorter in OAL than the 25. I mean center fire is center fire even if down loading was required.

I mean beyond the obvious reason of smoke and flame.

I do get the hots every time I look at the replica conversions, (just because they are so darn good looking) but single action is single action so I resist and buy a c&b instead.

 

[swathdiver]

In about 3 hours yesterday I shot 14 5-round groups while doing some testing. The pop gun crowd came and went, shooting off their two boxes of 50 in about as many minutes, most of that time spent jawing and changing targets.

I did let three of them shoot the Remmy and it never failed to elicit big grins and became a star on camera too!

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Which leads me to this dumb question. Why not just use regular loads cranked out on a progressive. On the rare occasion when I use the conversion cylinder on the ROA I just shoot what I would in the S&W Model 25. Only difference being the ROA rounds have to be somewhat shorter in OAL than the 25. I mean center fire is center fire even if down loading was required.

I mean beyond the obvious reason of smoke and flame.

I do get the hots every time I look at the replica conversions, (just because they are so darn good looking) but single action is single action so I resist and buy a c&b instead.

I shoot what is known as Frontier Cartridge Duelist in Cowboy Action Shooting. All cartridges, rifle, revolver, and shotgun are loaded with Black Powder, just the way it was done in the Old West. I do load my rifle and revolver cartridges on my progressive Hornady Lock & Load AP, but because I am using a Lyman Black Powder measure which is not hooked up to the press's linkage, it takes me a little longer than cranking out Smokeless rounds. I have to remember to flip the rotor on the powder measure for every round.

 

[whughett]

Well Graf and Sons got it right,they shipped the package right away. Four day service. Portal to portal.

Fedx emailed me they had delivered the 10 lbs of black. What where no package here. Wrong portal.

Turns out the driver dropped it at another address in a town 15 miles from me.

Good news, That person called me, phone number on package I guess. Well one honest citizen anyway.

Guess I will have to wait another day, trouble being, for this type of Haz Mat it has to be signed for, guess they don't care who, so I'll have to hang around the house again.:banghead: