Grizzly Bear Sidearm Question

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Ioweegian

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Grizzly Bear Sidearm Question

My (20 something) son who loves hunting is considering an Alaska Moose trip. He will need a backup revolver or pistol for potential dangerous Grizzly encounters (yes a rifle or shotgun would come first but I am specifically asking about a backup sidearm here) and he will and has asked advice from Dad (me). He is experienced with a rifle, a bow a pistol and revolver.

I was thinking a 10mm pistol would be OK for Black Bear but too small in Grizzly country. The .44 magnum is also a little smaller than we’d like for Griz. Basically I was thinking along the lines of a DA revolver chambered in .454 Casull, a .480 Ruger, maybe a .460 S&W, or even a 500 S&W Magnum.

We like the idea of the .460 being capable of taking .454 Casulls for lower 48 hunting back up in Black Bear country (he’s already taken a Blackie with a bow in the past) and the .460 taking .45 LC ammo for plinking (and even .45 LC + P is pretty close ballistics to a .44 magnum if the area/situation called for that). We like the versatility that the .460 offers (and the relatively cheap practice ammo in .45 LC).

But we also like the idea of bigger and weightier bullets in the .500. If the NEED ever arises I suppose you’d want as big of a gun as you can shoot. If the need NEVER arises I suppose you’d want something substantially smaller. But of course you never know.

We like the .454 in a Super Redhawk as it looks like it will last forever, take 6 rounds, etc.

Kinda wish Ruger would make the 480 Ruger to be able to take .475 Linebaugh (a sort of “.480 long” from what I have been told) and would also have a smaller plinking ammo available (perhaps someday they will come up with a “.480 special” for less expensive and less explosive practice rounds).

I suppose we could consider a pistol such as LAR Grizzly in .45 Win. if they were still making them but we would probably not go that route at this time due to availability issues.

We would probably be less inclined to get a shorter barrel. More likely utilize a 6-7.5 inch barrel.

So many choices and fine firearms available these days. These are the thoughts we have been considering.

Anyway I thought you’d have good ideas here. Perhaps some reasons against some of the ideas we thought of above, or some thoughts to affirm what we’ve come up with too. Some altogether different ideas would be welcome as well. We may start another thread on Ammo for this later (Garrett Ammo Cartridge looks great, but selection of caliber sizes available is quite limited).

I am sure there are searches I could have done here but am not too savvy with this. Besides the .500/.460 rounds are relatively new and may not even be mentioned on an older post.

Somebody’s going to say get one of each. How bout 2 of each? We certainly wish we could.

Your input please?
 
If the gun is dedicated to be used as grizzly protection I think I would give strong consideration to a 4 inch S&W in the .500 cartridge.

The reality is that one can make a case for whatever personal preference they have in the area of heavy caliber handguns. And most do, and they may be along shortly. There are several very good choices and you mentioned more than a couple yourself.

Most people (practicaly all) have no experience in self protection from a good size bear, so much of what one will get for response is speculation (and those personal preference thingy's mentioned) . I have only hunted & taken black bear , which is no comparison .
 
Huh, in the old west the cowboys regularly took down steer and horses, along with the occasional bear, with the 45 long colt. Maybe the bears got bigger since then.
 
Maybe I'm being naive, but a .44 magnum isn't enough gun for a grizzly?

No, not if he's charging you. A grizz charging at 30MPH presents a very small target. You basically have to make a headshot to the brain to stop him as the massive shoulders, legs, and fur provide plenty of protection to internal organs. A very tough shot under the best of circumstances.

A shotgun with slugs is th preferred anti-grizz weapon. If he's going to carry a pistol, there's no such thing as too big.
 
What rifle is he carrying?

I know it wasn't the question, but what rifle is he going to have? By that I mean, if he's carrying a semi-auto 7mm mag than I'd say just carry a .44mag as a last line of defense. But if he's going to tromp around w/ a black powder rifle or something useless like that, I'd carry the biggest handgun I could...
 
People are going to come up with big revolvers, and I carry one myself in bear country, but I have been thinking that a Glock 20, with 15 200 grain hardcast loads might be the best choice. It is probably the only gun that would give both a decent load and a chance for follow-up shots. I don't trust myself to hit that charging grizzly on the first shot, personally.
 
.460 smithy is enough to give em a good headache...id prefer a 50 BMG with incendiary rounds however... 50bmgsmiley.GIF
 
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People are going to come up with big revolvers, and I carry one myself in bear country, but I have been thinking that a Glock 20, with 15 200 grain hardcast loads might be the best choice.

I would stay away from auto calibers. They are designed for a much smaller and weaker species. Anything from a .44 mag and larger would work fine. A .500SW mag would be ideal. You need both weight and velocity to drop a grizzly quickly. If you only have one of these elements, it will likely kill you before it runs away and bleeds to death.
 
Use cast bullets lubricated with bacon fat. That way you revolver shooters can drop your empty gun and hope the griz stops long enough to sniff the gun for you to vamoose. You don't drop a griz with a head shot unless you find one sleeping. You need multiple fast follow up shots with the intent of breaking him down before he reaches you. Shoulders, hips, anything to stop the charge, kill him after he's down. I would probably prefer the 10mm with the hard cast or fmj 200gr and sixteen of them in the ready to go mode and another fifteen in a spare magazine.

In any case, no pistol will achieve the three thousand plus pounds of muzzle energy a good 450 Marlin load produces from a rifle and that would be my preference over any hand cannon.
 
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Anything from a .44 mag and larger would work fine.

+1; a .44 loaded w/ 305 grain CorBons is my backup when I'm in Alaska.

Another important criteria is the material the firearm is made of. We go to the S/E every year which is a rain forest, so it's constantly raining, a few guns always get a dose (sometimes full submerged) of saltwater and sand. Just something to keep in mind when he's trying to decide if he's bringing a cleaning kit.

Also, for what it's worth, we see Brown Bear of various sizes from varying distances every year. Make sure he knows the "rules" on how to act in Grizzly country (especially traveling in groups if possible).

Of all the times I've been there, we only came "close" to shooting a Brown Bear one time, but it was a pretty lazy false charge and we were successful in screaming at it until it left.

Oh, and don't forget that a moose can be as dangerous - if not more - than a bear.

I hope he has fun - it's an adventure he'll not forget anytime soon. I've attached some helpful links; the first one is how to travel in bear country, the other shows where / when bear attacks have occurred. Of the two, please make him read the first one!

http://www.absc.usgs.gov/research/brownbears/safety/safeconduct.htm

http://www.absc.usgs.gov/research/brownbears/attacks/bear-human_conflicts.htm

Take care,
DFW1911

P.S. I attached a photo of a couple of yearlings who were pretty fun to watch as they tried to fish. When they made our way to us a good "GO AWAY" was enough to send them a runnin!
 

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From what I have read you can use a .44Mag on a charging Griz but, for comfort, you really should grind off the front sight.
:Chuckles:

In the latest Glock magazine/catalog, they relate the story of someone unloading a G22 full of 180 grain's into a black bear, killing it. That being said, I would personally take the largest gun I could shoot comfortably as a backup, in spite of the weight. Also you should post this in the Hunting forum to, since those guys will probably have some pretty good insight into this particular problem.
 
:eek: I lived much of my life in the interior of Alaska and of course have developed my own strong opinion's on "Grizzly guns". It's always a great source of amusement and fun for everyone involved in the discussion.
I used to carry a Ruger Redhawk in a chest rig when hunting, hiking and or fishing.
Of all the encounters I've had with Alaskan Brown/Grizzly bears only one actually scared me. I was walking the Rainbow trail which is just 20 minutes south of Anchorage and runs along cook inlet with my dog. I was only about 1-mile off of the seward hwy, when I heard a large thrashing noise that I took to be a moose, when out of the alders literally 15-feet in front of us emerged a very large coastal brown bear who then stopped and turned towards me and the dog, and just sat there looking at us. He woofed at me twice and I easily watched drool and snot running from both nostrils and lips. He never overtly threatened myself or the dog, but the proximity and the bruins size scared the hell out of me. And then he just barreled off into the alders and was gone. Looking back, I'd say he was damn close to the size of my subaru wagon, more or less, you know thats how close he was and the immpression he left me with. At any rate I was completely at his mercy, and I never even thought about the .44 magnum I was packing, nor am I foolish enough to think it would have stopped him if he charged. It all happened so fast, there was no sound of him until I bolted him from the alders, he was so close, it was very humbling! The only Grizzly guns that are reliable to your stated purpose are way to big for such tight spaces and encounters to bring them to bear(so to speak). I ended up slinging a pistol gripped shotgun after that when I went by myself into the bush or just hiking trails with one of the dogs.
My long winded point? No pistol is enough to accomplish what you're tasking it with in this type of encounter, unless of course to administer pain relief, assuming you're still able....Good luck and have fun....;)
 
griz load

carry whatever you feel comfortable with to shoot yourself just before the bruin decides to eat you.:evil:
 
I guess if I had my choice I would be carrying this little honey.

Bushwacker2.jpg


4+1 of .45/70 or .457 Magnum. I'd be loading it with garrets hardcast loads.
 
Personally I would go with the Taurus Raging Bull .454 Casull revolver. SS finish with a 6 1/2 Inch Barrel should do you well! Loaded very hot:what:! Hope this helps, and I wish your son a safe trip ;).
 
Last time in bear country was a while but I took my Desert Eagle 50AE. We were backpacking and I used a thigh rig. Fast reloads and good stopping power. Since that time I have gotten a .454 Casull. That would be my choice now.
 
Take this for what it's worth- I have fired my .44 mag, my .460 mag, and a friend's .500 mag into thick plate steel at 25 yds.

The .44 scuffed the paint.
The .460 made a cute little dent in the steel.
The .500 made a BIG SCARY dent in the steel.

When I'm trouncing around the woods in my state, I carry my .44.
I sold the .460.
If I ever go to Alaska I will first purchase a .500, if I deem a shotgun to be too cumbersome for what I'm doing there.
 
I have a Ruger Alaskan 454. If you want to kill a 1000 lb bear through the head, there are better weapons. But, if you want a gun that will kill that bear, Draw easily and quickly, be comfortable to carry on your hip and not in your pack, sturdy and affordable; then I say get the Alaskan.

I considered the .460, but eventually I would have left it in my pack, at camp, then in the car. Eventually it would have been left home. I hunt out side of Yellowstone. Our Grizzlies aren't as big as browns, but they are still grizzlies.

There is a discussion on this weapon and how to load it on a thread here,

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=336165
 
CT lasergrip on a Ruger Super Redhawk snub .44mag/.454

I'd look into the large frame shrort barrel Ruger Super Redhawk DA revolvers; www.ruger.com www.gunsamerica.com or maybe the S&W line of N frame snub .44magnum/.500S&W/etc DA revolvers...

The Ruger can get a great Crimsontrace lasergrip and is highly rugged, :D. Either the .454 or .44magnum would fill the bill for an AK area hunt. These DA revolvers can also take the smaller .45LC rounds or .44spl for those two-legged threats that your son may encounter...;).

The S&W models can get a lasergrip too but I'm not crazy about the built in trigger lock, :rolleyes:. I've read of a few magnum/revolver shooters who had TL model S&Ws crap out or break down on them. :uhoh: On the range is okay but in a critical incident, I'd say; "oh %&*#!!!

Rusty S
www.lasersights.com www.crimsontrace.com
 
mnrivrat, you are absolutely right. Most folks have no experience in self protection from a good size bear. We don’t either (hunting which is what we have done, is of course different from being charged or stalked).

Eyesac. Haven’t decided on rifle yet. He would likely hunt with a bow and carry an 18 inch 870 with slugs for his long gun but I don’t know that and now he’s off at college – but we will discuss this. I am actually urging him to get a guide (then the guide can worry about that at least in some cases. But we looked into the cost and it is quite expensive for that level of guidance. I can see why they call it “the trip of a lifetime”). Right now he’s in the “thinking stages” and it is a lot of fun to even think about.

Even if the Glock 20 is relatively small (10mm), I like the idea of being able to get multiple shots with it. I know a central nervous system shot is pretty much required at short range (charging situation). But I like the idea of stopping the bear even better and am leaning toward recommending the .500 S&W. As KBintheSLE said “You need both weight and velocity to drop a grizzly quickly.” I am taking this advice to heart. But I sure like that 10mm with the right bullets.

I was talking to a S&W R&D person on the phone shortly after they (the .500s) came out. I suggested to him a shorter barrel and you could just hear the angst in his voice objecting about the loss of velocity as the barrel length went down. I think he was thinking about it as a hunting gun (“take your time, ready aim, fire”) though and not a defense gun (“shoot NOW or forever hold your peace!!”). Actually from our discussion I was quite surprised when several months later S&W DID come out with a shorter barreled version.

Perhaps the 10mm would be good to get for Blackie backup. Heck a 10mm would just plain be fun to have anyway (alas the limited funds issue).

DFW 1911. Good points about corrosion resistance/cleaning. And we have discussed the Moose charge aspect too. Les Stroud says the Moose is the most dangerous of all animals in Canada (if I recall it was the Bull Moose during the rut but I may be wrong) regarding charges. The same reasoning of course would hold as true in Alaska. Also thanks for the links. I read one of Herrero’s books (“Bear Attacks Their Causes and Avoidance”). A fine read. Also read “Alaska Bear Tales” (Larry Kniut) also a fine read and very thrilling. A lot of these Bear attack victims are well armed but never even get a shot off. Something else to think about I guess. These books would get me laying in bed at night thinking for long periods of time about what I would do in some of these situations (and what I wouldn’t do). Maybe someone ought to begin a thread on the most exciting bear books too.

mgregg85. I have a friend from Italy and he has much more knowledge than I ever will regarding firearms. He too (for a rifle) likes the 45/70 (in a Marlin). He liked the .454 for a sidearm but we had that discussion before the .500 and .460 came out. Perhaps he feels different now. Interestingly as an aside, he states that in Italy, the gun controllers have not only disarmed the people but the next logical step is being carried out – disarming the police (with some exceptions). He said “they give them a stick”! “The only ones with guns are the criminals!” That is why airguns are popular over there [if I recall this discussion correctly – it was about 5 or 6 years ago] but even those airguns are now being scrutinized). He said that is how gun controlling works. First the common citizens and eventually the law enforcement personnel get disarmed! I hadn’t even thought of that.

GJgo, I’ll keep what you said in mind (“The .44 scuffed the paint.
The .460 made a cute little dent in the steel.
The .500 made a BIG SCARY dent in the steel.”). Speaks volumes.

mewachee, I saw that thread (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=336165 ). Mephis stated:

Mephis “Was browsing google and found this thread, so I thought I'd register and give my 2cents.
I started loading for the .454 with an alaskan as well and eventually got tired of the low performance the 2.5" barrel was ending up with.
I traded it in for a used 7.5" at a loss and was very happy with the result. It's no harder to handle or any more awkward than the alaskan, in a practical sense. The only thing I miss was being able to CCW . . .”

Mephis’ post was one of the opinions I heard that made me think twice about a shorter barrel. The tradeoff here would be quickness though. The shorter barrel would be quicker for the first shot, the longer barrel would have more velocity. Where the perfect place is on the curve I just don’t know.

These opinions are very informative. Please keep the info flowing, as this is a fascinating subject.

Lots to think about so far.
 
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