Grizzly Bear Sidearm Question

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I'll throw in my .02, though I must preface by saying I'm not a hunter.

I fired my first S&W 4" 500 last weekend, on loan from a friend at work (we were teaching his girlfriend to shoot--it's easy when we have my girlfriend there, who loves to shoot).

That's a hell of a gun. I'm 5'11", 300 pounds (yeah, short and fat), and there was no quick follow-up shots from me. I don't know about a panic situation, but even with the porting, that thing kicks something fierce with full-size loads.

I could maybe get off one shot at a moving target, but I'd lose sight picture as soon as I fired. There was no stopping that monster's muzzle rise.

Just something to think about...I guess if the first shot did enough damage, you wouldn't need the second...but then we'd all be carrying T/Cs.

Good luck with your choice!
 
.44 and up is, as many others have stated, the way to go, but make sure that he runs a bunch of rounds through it first. Chances are he won't have to use it, but finding out that it shoots high or that it is so uncomfortable fire that he can't shoot it well when a bear is charging him is not so good. Revolvers are the way to go.
 
For me the critera would be:

1. What can a most accurately shoot? I would rather shoot a .357 with a 180 grain JSP into a bears skull, than miss with a .50 S&W if that was all the gun I could handle.
2. Size. Its a backup gun, not a primary. A big hogleg doesn't do you any good if you don't carry it, nor if its so cumbersome that I can't do my primary part of the trip (hunt/fish/hike/etc.)
3. Durable. I am hard on my hunting equipment, esp. handguns and it needs to work period.

That being said, and the facct that your son is hunting with a powerful enough rifle to take a moose, I would opt for the following:

The Ruger Rehawk .44 with a 4 inch barrel, or simliar Taurus, S&W in stainless. Loaded with a 300 grain pill it will penetrate a bears skull and not be too cumbersome to carry. What I would like is a .460 or .454 with a 4 inch barrel in the redhawk/super redhawk frame, then loaded with what I could fire accurately.
The bottom line if I'm hunting with a rifle, that is what I would be shooting a bear with, not a handgun. For that matter at camp a good 12 Ga. with slugs would be my 1st choice. The handgun would be my last line of defense in a bear attack.
 
Ioweegian, I believe that if you are not a resident of Alaska, you must hunt with a guide or a resident. I have not confirmed this, but I am 80% sure of it.

RandyB, I am not a bear expert, but I play one on tv. It is interesting how shooters from out east think about bears. Prior to getting my Alaskan, I seriously ask 100 people there opinions. Of course I got a different answer from everyone I asked. Here is what I think is important to know.

Depending on your bear, your vital target is about the size of a man's when charging.

When we shoot a charging bear, we intend to stop, not only kill. Remember when a bear charges it's adrenalin is through the roof. It is like a addict on meth.

The skull is like a steel plate, a thick plate, in the middle of the target. The 357 might crack it, but probably deflect. Now you have a very angry bear on meth.

If you hit a shoulder, you may get one lung, that will only slow him a little.


This sounds like a lecture, but it is the lecture I give my self every time I think of bears.

A lot of guys here have said that the 44 is the way to go, When you take a 7.5 in 44 and compare to the 2.5 in alaskan Even though the alaskan has a loss in its own potential energy, because of the short barrel, it has an increase of 40 % of energy over the 44.

I want a 500 and haven't shot it, but I believe that I will always carry the alaskan. the 500 is a lot of metal to settle down for the shot.

The rifle/shotgun would be best, if it was in your hands, but ask someone to surprise you to draw a shoulder slung shotgun, a half second makes a huge difference. Plus, the alaskan can be worn day and night if necessary, but who wouldn't leave a shotgun outsite the tent while you change, or up against a tree while you cook your bear bait.

Here is a good test: Throw 40 oz. in your holster for a few hours, then up it to 70 oz. Then go for a run or a hike up a hill. I believe weight is a huge factor in accessing your weapon and stabilizing. Remember, this is not for hunting, it is for stopping.
 
Ioweegian,
I believe the 10 mm is a good idea, it has numerous rounds available, is able to be controlled for numerous follow up shots. The main shooter is the rifle or a back up guide or friend. The Glock 20 is a good one for your sons needs imho:uhoh:
 
There are about 1,000 threads on this.

My experience has been that the big boomer handguns of .454 size and over are too bulky and too difficult for most folks to shoot in a hurry to be effective as a backup sidearm. Whatever you carry you must first of all carry it, and you must be able to draw and fire rapid fire with high accuracy at a moving target. If you're far better with a .357 than a .44 mag, carry the .357. Just load it with 180 or 200 grain hardcast solids.
 
Maybe I'm being naive, but a .44 magnum isn't enough gun for a grizzly?
Click to expand...

You're not naive at all. The "little" .44 Mag has been used to stop attacking brown bears in Alaska, and remains extremely popular. Contrary to conventional wisdom of clerks, bears are not bullet proof. Whether with a .44 mag or a .500 S&W placement is critical.

The .44 Mag is the aurea mediocritas of field guns. But you have to practice a lot with whatever you use and be able to draw and fire accurately FAST. When bear move in they're amazingly quick, not at all like the lumbering things in the movies. Thankfully attacks are very rare and most encounters end with the bear running off.
 
i have never been hunting, but should't your son find a handgun he is comfortable with?

i have fired a desert eagle 50cal and thats too much for my 5'7" 150lb body

is he going to be alone? and what kind of rifle?
 
Quote:
Maybe I'm being naive, but a .44 magnum isn't enough gun for a grizzly?
No, not if he's charging you. A grizz charging at 30MPH presents a very small target. You basically have to make a headshot to the brain to stop him as the massive shoulders, legs, and fur provide plenty of protection to internal organs. A very tough shot under the best of circumstances.

Does a bigger caliber makes a Grizz bigger target?
 
mewachee quote: “Ioweegian, I believe that if you are not a resident of Alaska, you must hunt with a guide or a resident. I have not confirmed this, but I am 80% sure of it.”

This may be true, but the last time I asked around (haven’t taken the other steps yet – still in the idea or early planning phase) non-residents needed a guide for Bighorn Sheep and Grizzly (an exception is for military personnel that are stationed there which he is not) but not for Moose.

Even if he has a guide, some of those trips have good guide packages, others are not so comprehensive. Also even if he has a guide, he will still carry a backup (although it will be of less importance with a guide). Sometimes the guides get attacked by the Bears too. Things can get pretty hectic pretty fast.

Haven’t decided on the guide issue yet although I do favor him hiring one.

Cosmoline, you mentioned there are many threads on this subject. I am pretty low power when it comes to using search engines. Would you be so kind as to give me several links here? Perhaps some search entry phrases as well so I could do my own search in the future? Thank you in advance.

The 10mm with multiple shots is very inviting. But many people in this situation only get one shot. This is part of the decision dilemma of course. Smaller caliber, easier to put out follow-up shots. Larger caliber, more stopping power. Interesting to think about.

Nobody is suggesting that a rifle/shotgun wouldn’t come first. It does. The sidearm is a backup for when you get separated from a long gun or something else (Murphy’s Law) goes awry. If he is shooting a Moose with his bow, and for example the Moose charges him, he may not have time to get his long gun up. He may not even have time to get his sidearm up either. When thinking about the possibilities though, a backup side arm is at least some insurance. I know Moose are very dangerous but we keep thinking about the Grizzly situation. Perhaps it is the reputation the Grizzly enjoys that keeps us thinking about the Bears, but whatever it is, it is certainly a concern and as most of you would agree, shouldn’t be overlooked.
 
I have vast experience with brown bears and I can tell you exactly what your son should take for bear protection:

1) Common wood sense (lacking that a guide)
2) A rifle (or that 870 you mentioned)
3) Whatever handgun he already owns (the lighter the better).
4) Bear spray to discourage a curious bear

Packing around a huge revolver in .600 nitro (or whatever) will just be a big drag or seeing he's moose hunting, an anchor cause he'll likely take an accidental dip.

I know it is fun to think about bears as monster killing machines stalking about lusting for human flesh, but the reality is something else entirely.

You and your son should be most concerned about shot placement on that moose, because a wounded moose is bad news.
 
Mr Ioweegian, you seem committed to your task, here's some good advice. If it was me, I'd look to the Marlin guide gun in 45/70 with a really good sling. You may also look to S&W or Ruger for a short barreled .357 or .44 magnum, the S&W 386 PD strikes me as an excellent bush buddy. You may want to contact Steve Smith of Alaskan Guns & Ammo, he's in Fairbanks and will point you to one of several guides and I believe he's got at least some other good advice as well, I'll PM you his phone #.
 
quick point

I fly medevac across the state of Alaska and carry an EAA Witness 10mm loaded with 200gr cor-bon's // buffalo bore rounds...on the basis of Alaska folks who oughtta know. FWIW...coming from someone who has the need to know but hopefully never needs to find out firsthand.
 
I have no experience with 10 mm, however it seems insufficient when it comes to energy and TKO. The 10mm data comes from my Hornady reloading book. I am using 200 g. bullet going 1150 fps, which seems fast for this combo. For the Alaskan, I am using my data; 335 WLNGC going 1250 fps. This is not my hottest load.

Weapon - Weight - Energy - Tko
10mm - 33 oz - 587 ft/lb - 13
Alaskan - 41 oz - 1,163 ft/lb - 26

The 10mm is 8.1 in, while the Alaskan is 7-5/8 in. Other than the extra 8 oz, I don't see the Alaskan as being clumsy, especially with the Hogue grips (they are like stickum).

My second weapon is my Alaskan. Even when I am bow hunting. If a bear is watching you and showing aggression, all the motion used to go for a rifle that is not already in your hands will intensify the situation more. A grizzly wants to see passiveness, not fast motions.

I can't imagine carrying three major weapons, but even if I saw this as a necessity the shotgun/rifle would be third while bow hunting.

One more thing, a scope on a defensive weapon could get you killed.
 
There is more to the equation than just muzzle energy. Important factors include the composition of the slug (hardcast penetrates better), sectional density, and meplat size. The 230 grain Doubletap hardcast load going 1120 (or the 200 grain going 1300) from the Glock 20 penetrates and does not deform, but still allows reasonable follow-up shots. There is no doubt that the .454 is hot (although the load you listed is pretty close to .45 +P), but if that one shot does not do the trick . . .

Like I said, however, I carry a .45 Blackhawk because that is what I own.
 
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The 10mm with multiple shots is very inviting. But many people in this situation only get one shot. This is part of the decision dilemma of course. Smaller caliber, easier to put out follow-up shots. Larger caliber, more stopping power. Interesting to think about.
Click to expand...

I have to tell you the amount of firepower (bullets down range) is awesome with the 10 mm Glock 20 auto, and controlable. Practice and you can unload it in a few seconds if need be :uhoh: And on target if you practice:) second and third shots are very easy to contol.

Extra mags is another thing that makes it a good weapon for the brush, I would not slight this weapon in the least. Your big guns are something that few can shoot even with practice I have noticed, especially in a hurry. Common sense is what is needed here. One of the reasons for the lighter penetrating rounds of 223 and its ability to unload so many on target.

Similar situation with this topic.

HQ
 
i just came back from canada in oct. we were up in churchhill seeing the polar bears my cousin has canser and was picked by make a wish to go there that was his wish any way most of the guys there used the 44 mag as there back up gun the ruger the rifles were 416, 375 and a 454 and they carry them on the busses he had a lot of fun the bigest bear we seen was almost 10 feet tall and pushing 900 pounds the guide saud that after winter he would gain 500 more pounds 1400 big bear
 
Go with the gun he can shoot best. I would rather have the extra round of .44 or .454. Personally, I would pick a 3-4" .44 magnum and stoke it with 330-340 grain +ps by Garrett of BB, if that is too much recoil or he wants a smaller gun, I'd go with the 2.5" SRH Alaskan or S&W Trail Boss and load the Garrett 310 Grain Defender.

Shooter429
 
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Many calibers/platforms (from 9mm up) have been successfully used to defend against grizzly attacks. Also unsuccessfully I might add.

Every body is going to have an opinion on this. For 99.9%+ of us, it is just that, an opinion. There probably aren't very many people who have been involved in a bear attack, let alone enough attacks to give a statistically relevant reply. JJ Hack over on graybeardoutdoors.com appears to have substantial first hand experience. Read "Rolltide's" (reply #25) -- the quoted post is from JJ Hack on this link http://www.go2gbo.com/forums//index.php/topic,89450.0.html

This relates mostly to Black Bears, but there is some good info on Brownies if you read thru the material.

I would think that your choice (caliber/bullet) would also depend on whether the Grizzly's in question are Coast Brown bears, or interior grizzlys.

Also, if you can get a hold of some of Ross Siefried's old articles -- his results with the .475 Linebaugh on big critters (African and Asian Buffalo) are really impressive.

My son and I bow hunt elk here in Montana. Every year, people (like 6 this last year) get mauled or killed by black and/or grizzly bears. You are more likely to be attacked when bow hunting -- you smell like elk, you may be using decoys, you are making elk sounds, and you are trying not to be seen. The grizzlies here in Montana can go 800 or 900 lbs (unusually large bears), and are at their peak weight in the fall, just before hibernation.

When bow hunting, I carry a S&W M329 .44 Mag loaded with 250gr Hardcast bullets. I have a .475 Linebaug Freedom Arms 6", but it is just much extra weight to be packing around the mountains as a "backup" gun. I also like the double action feature of the 329. I shoot both of these guns a lot (25 to 50 rounds a day, 5 days a week, year around), so I feel reasonably confident in my ability to hit something if given time.

If I was in an area that had coastal brown bears I'd probably opt for the S&W 500 Mag 4" and deal with the weight.

I'd always feel more comfortable with a handgun than without, realizing of course that anything can happen and you may be unable to get the gun out because you were surprised or attacked from behind, or ????.

We always figured to get hurt, but hope to kill the attacker before it kills us.

Just my opinion - no relevant personal experience.

Tell your son to have a great time.

Paul
 
Well, the folks here in AK--the ones who grew up here and the ones who have spent time in the bush--almost unanimously voted for the 10mm
with heavy dense rounds as the best compromise between controllability, number of rounds available to shoot, lethality, and portability. For me, I can
shoot it pretty darn well, meaning accurately and controllably, and it is of a size and configuration that won't eventually leave me leaving it behind as too heavy, awkward, etc--pretty useless to have a cannon capable of sinking a battleship that you can't shoot, are reluctant to practice, with, and is just a pain in the rear to lug around...again, fwiw.
 
I'd go with the Ruger Redhawk in 45 Colt +P, 300 grain or heavier. As has been mentioned here before, I'd rather be carrying a shotgun on a sling, than a handgun on my hip. This would apply to a non-hunting scenario, such as hiking in bear country. Buffalo Bore has several loads that push the 45 Colt up to around 1200 ft lbs of energy.

If I were actually hunting grizz, I would sure hope the 338 win mag would take him down, before a handgun became necessary. You know what they say, save the last round for yourself.:eek::uhoh:
 
All the talk about the 454 Casull, .460 Magnum, 500 Magnum and 45-70 Gov't makes me a little worried. I'm guessing most of the people suggesting those calibers mean well but have never fired those calibers under stress. Like already said buy a few in this thread, you will have to draw and rapidly fire the handgun you are carrying and do so under extreme stress. You will have to hit a fast moving object on top of all of this. IMO a 5" .44 Magnum loaded with heavy hard cast bullets will do a good job as a backup sidearm because it's a heavy round but not so heavy as to prevent you from doing all you will need to do to save your life.

I would also suggest carrying Bear Spray. I'm not talking about just any pepper spray but something made for Bear protection that will shoot a sustained stream over 30 feet like the one I linked to. There are others on the market but this is one of the best know.
 
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