Grizzly Bear Sidearm Question

[CB900F]

Fella's;

Many years ago in western Montana, a friend and I were hunting grouse. He had a 16 and I had a 20, both single-shot shotguns. We'd hiked up a logging road to get above a little meadow & where the road crossed a creek, we turned left & started into about 30 yards of brush & light trees to get to the top of the meadow. The creek was on our right hand side, just a little step-over run of water. 'Bout halfway through the brush we came upon a small clearing, maybe the size of a queen bed. There were two bear beds in it. There was a steaming fresh pile of bear scat on the far right hand edge of the clearing. There was also a irritated grunt, accompanied by halitosis that came from my immediate right, just in the creek area which was screened from me by heavy brush & trees. We thereupon set the world's record brush dash back to the vehicle. Mr. Griz wasn't hungry that time. No, there was no possibility that it was a black bear. Black bear do not survive long in griz habitat.

My current heavy packin' pistol is a .475 Linebaugh. The no-fun at all to shoot load launches a 425 grain hard cast out the 6" barrel at 1250 fps. I have a great respect for the big bears & do everything I can to avoid them. I've never had another encounter anywhere near that close that I know of. But it's very hard to believe you've got too much pistol when you do get a "close encounter".

900F

 

[paul105]

Ioweegian,

paul105, Quote: . . . . from JJ Hack on this link http://www.go2gbo.com/forums//index....c,89450.0.html . . . .


paul105, I tried the web address and it was a dead link. Would you mind re posting it?

Thank you



Try this -- if case it doesn't work, check your PM

RollTide reply #25

http://www.go2gbo.com/forums//index.php/topic,89450.0.html


Paul

 

[kayakersteve]

Here's my choice....

S&W 460V

 

[jeepmor]

From the guy IN Alaska

I ended up slinging a pistol gripped shotgun after that when I went by myself into the bush or just hiking trails with one of the dogs.

I'd take extra ammo for the rifle I'm hunting with, and a slip on rifle stock extra ammo holder. Lighter than a pistol if you sling your rifle right, it'll be ready just as quick. If hiking alone or with dogs, I'd carry the pistol gripped shotgun.

Sorry, can't recommend a handgun for a subaru sized bear.

 

[cookekdjr]

Never been to Alaska. But done alot of research on this. Here is what I've found.
1. The gun must be light enough to be an "always" gun. So you will always have it with you. Any sidearm that does not fit this bill is useless in this role.
2. Bullet selection is as important as caliber selection. Forget hp's and sp's. You want hard cast lead bullets that will not expand, but will instead penetrate when they hit the heavy thick bones of the bear. FMJ's have worked (in 9mm, even!) but hard cast is the way to go if its available.
3. Remember the purpose of the weapon: to fight your way back to your long gun, or more probably, to slow down the bear enough for one of your companions to finish him off with his long gun.
Just my two cents.
-David

 

[Rossi20]

I say a SERBU sshortie with a knoxx breachers grip.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Just to add to my first post and to agree with the others recommending a Hard Cast bullet, there are a few companies selling Hard Cast ammo but I think the best the Grizzly Cartridge Company. They make a quality hunting round that will serve you well. There is another company which makes 45-70 Gov't rounds and .44 Magnum rounds too, it's the Garrett Cartridge Company. I've been told they make good ammo and the bullet they use looks great but I have no personal experience with their products.

 

[CB900F]

Fella's;

I use Cast Performance bullets, and load my own.

900F

 

[Stevie-Ray]

I agree about the 10mm for black bears and it's what I use in this state. For Grizzly bears though, I don't think I'd carry less than my SAR-48. Maybe 3 or 4 20rd mags, too. Sorry but I doubt I'd put myself in that situation at all. Too chicken.

The .460 or .500 S&W sounds about right.

 

[mewachee]

Sometimes these discussions seem silly, when the question is a serious one.

It's like the question, "How do you eat an elephant?" Answer, "One bite at a time. NOT well, I would start with the ear. That's wrong, I would start with the shoulder. No you have it all wrong, I don't like elephant.

This question is not how to kill a bear standing still, broadside, picking berries, enjoying the sunny day. The answer to that question is, shoot it with an arrow, or walk a way carefully.

If the question is, When I have a brown coming down on me at 30 mph, with a relatively small target, with a plate size head/shield, which is driven by adrenalin and will not run because you put another hole in it? The answer is, use what ever you have at the time. However, this is not the question.

The real question here is, "How do you prepare for a brown coming down on me..." The answer is use your head. That bear is not going to stop because of flesh wounds, it will only stop when it's central nervous system stops. Even a heart shot isn't a guaranty.

I know you can kill a whitetail with a 22 long, because I know someone who did it. I think he is an idiot, but at least he knew that the deer wasn't going to come and get him.

I have read in this thread, don't use anything less than a shotgun and anything larger than a 9mm will do. How can they both be true. You need to draw your weapon from storage, how long will that take. The shotgun suffers here, unless you are willing to carry at the ready 100% of the time. You also need a weapon that will generate a wound that will kill inside a second (If you know how to shoot it, and get lucky enough to do what you need to).

Worst case scenario: On your trip, a 1200 lb boar will attack you. He has a running start at you from 25 yards before you see him. He is pissed. Now imagine this happens when you are least prepared. What weapon would best serve you? What weapon give you a better chance at survival than all others?

Let's throw out the silly answers, and focus on the reasonable. This guy is not asking for a scenario of might work, he is asking, how can I be best prepared.

 

[paul105]

From an article in Guns & Ammo (Dec 1989) ".475 Revolver Down Under" written by Ross Siefried. Bob is the outfitter who has seen numerous Asian Buffalo (2,000 Lb critters) shot with all manner of rifles.

“Bob Penfold was beginning to believe in the handgun (.475 Linebaugh with 430grs Hardcast LBTs at 1,380 fps). He had seen the .44 Mags and the “short rifles” fail miserably on buffalo. In the beginning he was a bit apprehensive about trying even the .475 on the big beasts. Bob was starting to realize that this wasn’t an ordinary handgun.”

“Two days previously, I had a minor war with an Aussie buff. After three rounds of 1,000 grain, eight-bore bullets through both shoulders, he was still standing, looking for trouble? The reality was, these buffalo weren’t white mice.”

“My first shot had hit exactly where I wanted it. --- It punched through the near shoulder, destroyed the heart, and smashed the off shoulder to pulp before it exited into the gum trees. Bob said he had never seen a .375 H&H hit a bull that hard. At last, with the .475, I have a handgun that isn’t under powered when used on big game.

After my first field experience with the big gun, I have some definite opinions about the usefulness of the .475 cartride. Ifist, it is a specialized tool. When loaded to full power it is right at home against the big or dangerous game. Buffalo, hippos, bears, lions, and moose may be the only animals worthy of its potential. At full power, the recoil is intimidating, making the gun difficult to shoot precisely. Great effort is required for me to master it, applying the bullets precisely enough to be effective. ---- In a tight spot, I would always rather have my .416. But the .475 is effective enough that I would feel as comfortable with it as it is possible to feel when facing unhappy claws and horns.”

 

[ArchAngelCD]

mewachee,
Your last post is an outstanding one. I talked about shootability in my first post (#49). I highly doubt someone who buys a new very heavy caliber revolver which he/she has never shot before will be able to use that revolver well under extreme pressure.

Also, most people are are ignoring the Bear Spray. A bear has so many olfactory cells in their nose they can smell food from over a mile away. I have seen videos and reports of a bear being rendered unconscious by strong pepper spray. It is so painful to them the actually go into shock.

 

[Kind of Blued]

I'd say the grizzly bear attack makes the best case for laser grips to date.

A) One more thing to either scare off, confuse, distract, or disorient the bear if you shine it in it's eyes.

B) I, personally, would have a hard time focusing on my front sight with a half-ton chunk of nordic teddy death charging me at 30mph.

 

[shooter429]

Shootability, availability and ammo choice all point to the .44

Garrett 330s in a 4" .44 gun can be on your side all day through the woods or in the stream (that's how I roll) They can be economically practiced with and deployed quickly with hopefully satisfactory results (as good as the average handgunner can hope for) More gun is likely too much for the shooter and less, well, just foolish.

Shooter429

 

[mewachee]

See, this is already sounding more sensible. I personally think that pepper spray is a great product. I don't personally carry, but I should start. I would however go for my Alaskan in an attack. I would use the spray for a nuisance bear, most of our attacks start this way.

One more thing, don't take a dog into known bear country. We had a guy barely survive an attack last year, because his dog went out to harass a bear, then the bear followed the dog back to the hiker. This is why you layer your defense.


As far as shooting under pressure, this is only a factor for the unprepared. If you have practiced the quick draws attempting only acceptable hits. Then you try and image the possible situations, while shooting quickly, not fast. Whatever your choice of weapon is, usually under pressure becomes slow motion. I have even considered how I would act in a dog attack without a weapon. Preparation, including practice, makes more sense.


If you don't know how to use any of these weapons, your chance of success dwindles away.



Shooter429: How much does your 44 weigh, my 454 Alaskan weighs 40 oz, and has as much as a 40% increase in energy. I carry it all day in an "Uncle Mikes holster," Not very attractive, but it does a great job protecting the finish, it rides very well and is easily accessible.

 

[mewachee]

I wish we could use laser grips here when we are hunting, but you can't; not when you are hunting anyway.

Our Fish and Game thinks guilty until proven otherwise. Even if you're hunting with a bow during a bow only season, F&G will give you a ticket for hunting with an electric devise attached to your weapon. Which make walking out of the hills, in the dark, with the smell of hind quarter wafting behind you? I don't know about you, but I call that bait.

 

[researchdoc]

.44 mag with hard cast 300 grain plus loads should be just fine in a 4"

 

[Blakenzy]

Has anyone though about taking a good dog along whle in bear country? A smart dog will probably spot any bear before you do and decrease the likelyhood of a surprize attack. If it's brave and loyal enough it might sacrifice itself by attacking thr bear buying you enough time to shoulder and shoot or run.

 

[DENALI]

Good to see this thread's still got some life in it. As to pepper sprays,and knocking old coastal brownie out with the "old olfactory" shot, sure hope you're up wind or perhaps it doubles as an excellent seasoning. As to dogs on the trail and interacting with Bruin, you better have one xxx damn smart dog for that scenario to play itself out to your favour. As already recounted by myself elsewhere on this thread, I've run into one good size coastal Brownie at close quarters with a pooch(border collie)and remember being scared witless the little girl would decide to play ranch dog thus encouraging Bruin to play apex predator with me...

 

[ArchAngelCD]

DENALI,
Don't laugh at the pepper spray. I'm not talking about a little 1 oz bottle of spray you would use when taking a walk at home to chase away a stray dog, I'm talking about real Bear spray. I posted a link in my first post (#49) but Here it is again. This bottle is sold up to 13 oz in size, it will shoot very hot pepper up to 30 feet away. It doesn't shoot a stream of spray but a thick fog of spray quickly the bear can't avoid. It's very effective, just go to the site and really look around the site.

 

[Sport45]

I can't imagine the laser grip working at all. It seems to me it would be awful hard to finf the dot on a charging bruin. Even harder that aquiring the front sight.

I think the answer is to hire a guide.

Pick a guide you're sure your son can outrun.

 

[mewachee]

The beginning of this thread start with, may have a guide or may not. Personally, I hunt in my back yard (bear country). The guide isn't going to be with him when he takes a crap, he won't standing guard night. You have to first be prepared to count on your self first.


These comments about out running the guide, 5 in the cylinder one for me, ect; I don't get them. I think that American males are slowly evolving into girls. The more you talk about acting like a girl, the more you will act like a girl in one of these situations. Know offense intended girls.

 

[DENALI]

Uhh ArcAngelCD, Don't laugh at the wind as it can return any aerosol right back to were it came from. I know exactly what the stuff is and even advertised it for a client on KWLF-FM in Fairbanks way back in the early 90's when it was first being developed by some outfit from Montana or Colorado.
I don't recall the gentlemans name but he gave us an excellent demo right in the parking lot were it blew back into all of our faces! Regardless, I've carried it on a number of trips into the White mountains while caribou hunting and also while fishing the Kenai and hiking and fishing in and around the Matsu valley. Anybody still reading this thread, never ever forget, Bear sprays are only as good as the wind at your back, something I promise you folks new to the Alaskan bush experience, you're not likely to have in your favour! None the less it is a good product under optimal conditions.....................

 

[JESmith]

Denali, I agree with you about bear spray. I used it against black bear on three occasions. The first two times, I got more on myself than the bear. I had to dump my pack and run. The only successful time was against a "kamikazee bear" and that was after she got tired.
For those that have never heard of kamikazee bears.... Black bears are smart critters. When I hike, we always "bear bag". (Load up all your food, cooking utensils, insect repelent, soap, anything that smells back in your pack. Then tie your packs up on a rope line strung between two trees high enough that the bears can't get to it.) Bears figured out that they could climb higher up the tree and then leap out onto the bear bag and break the rope. Quickly learned to go 11mm or bigger climbing rope. Anyway, bear in question tried four times and was unable to bear the rope. Between the noise and the spray and her being tired, I was able to chase her off. Would I trust my life to bear spray? No way.

 

[Illuminaughty]

Glock 20 with some hard cast rounds would be my choice.

If there's grizzlies about and you're worried, why on earth not carry a rifle for it? An AK or FAL would be perfect.